BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Personally, I think Keldeo will stay. Sure, it has the best Hydro Pump and nice stats, but that's about it. It can't really abuse Rain the way Tornadus does.
Tornadus on the other hand... There's a possibility for it to be kicked. Its awesome speed combined with its better-than-average offense and its good defense make it a threat. And that's not just about its Hurricane.
But still, banning Drizzle completely just to keep some mons in OU is a bit too much. Drizzle is arguably the best weather, but kicking it would mean a ridiculous rise to other weathers. We could just ban weather altogether, but I don't think that would be good for the game.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

I'd rather see Drizzle banned than continually banning weather abusers. I have set up a suspect tier. Drizzle is banned in it along with the following Pokemon:
Arceus, Blaziken, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, Dialga, Excadrill, Garchomp, Genesect, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W, Lugia, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, Thundurus, Zekrom. If you need that altered, let me know.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Way to take charge, Bippa and King Arceus (my thoughts on your banlist are on your profile). I'm working to get on the suspect ladder soon, albeit using the same team as Bippa lol. Great minds think alike.

I know it sounds utopian, but is it at all possible to bring back every previously banned weather abuser instead? DW OU was so much fun, but the viability of some Pokemon could be even more with Genesect and ST Chandelure out of the picture. Remember, the only Pokemon that would come back in this case that was remotely good was Excadrill, and while Blaziken was eventually banned there, he loses a huge target to set up on in Genesect.

~AoH
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

The way I looked at DW OU was as a BL0.5-that is, where you use mons that are too good for OU but not competitive on most Ubers teams. If anything make it a different tier again, but do not bring those monsters back into my OU.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Thoughts about the Drizzle Suspect Banlist:
Unban Kyu-B and Garchomp.
Ban Deo-N (lolwhy).
Have you thought about relegalizing Thundurus-I and/or Manaphy or something else to see how they fare in it? Manaphy is UU material without its rain, and I believe rain is where Thundurus' NP set got its power from.
Otherwise, looks good.

Just say when its up and I'll be there.

~AoH
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Thundurus-I was stronger in the rain with boosted Thunder, but it was still capable of 2HKOIng everything in the format with Thunderbolt. Please don't bring him back.

Manaphy would be a nice mon to bring back. I don't think it would be quite UU material due to Tail Glow, so even aside from sharing a niche with Vaporeon it would have its own unique sets to run.

Kyu-B and Garchomp I'm kind of on the fence of letting them into OU or not with Drizzle, I think the power drop that would happen as a result of Drizzle's ban would probably force them out. I might be able to be persuaded otherwise however.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Unbanned Kyurem-B and Garchomp. Banned Sand Veil and Deoxys-N. I will let the others decide Manaphy and Thundurus' fate.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

I'm not sure about Manaphy. Perhaps it's time to bring it back...
But Thundurus, no chance. Even without rain, it has priority Thunder Wave, priority Nasty Plot, and a pretty good offensive movepool, not to mention stats. For me, it's uber.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

I'm pretty sure the ban of Thundurus-I had absolutely nothing to do with the weather. It was mostly because of what ChillBill said - Prankster NP/T-Wave and a very solid offensive movepool, combined with good typing.
I'd like Thundurus-I back, maybe after some suspect testing, but if it's still too good, then so be it.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Understood. I know it isn't my decision, but I at least think Manaphy could use a go. Thundurus, agreed, no.

I'm on the Beach PO server if anyone wants to join me. We need to get something cracking.

~AoH
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

This thread has really started to deviate from its main topic of the suspect test. Let's get back to that please. ^_^
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

(My bad)

Alright, it has been awhile since initially discussing Tornadus-T and Keldeo. I believe we have already summed up that Tornadus-T is the more bannable of the two, with his utility, durability, versatility, speed, and ability to outlast and/or power through would-be counters like Jirachi and Rotom-W, but we would hate to see him go. Keldeo acts more like a Swift Swimmer when it puts on that scarf, as it is amazingly has and has the annoying-but-fun double STAB boost in rain. It is much more counterable though, with solid ones existing everywhere in the form of Celebi, Latias, Jellicent, etc. It is unlikely that this gets the boot, as people only complain about one set, but there is the possibility.

As a better alternative (I guess), we are suspect testing Drizzle in an attempt to save all of the weather abusers and deviate from Smogon at last. While I feel that this is a viable alternative, I can't help but feel that Tornadus-T and Keldeo would drop even more in use, and players may just stop playing because they have lost their favorite playstyle. My friend felt like quitting around the time of Thundurus-I's ban because he lost his team's star anyways. These two depend on rain, so unless someone gets creative after one or both of them is saved on Smogon, they look to be facing dark days even if they do survive suspect testing. Tornadus-T would likely be nothing more than a sun scarfer at best, and Keldeo would go as a Choice user on sand and weatherless teams. His CM set relied far too much on rain and was rather underwhelming. I just can't help but think that banning anything would destroy the metagame. Soon it would just be Venusaur and Terrakion duking it out on every channel, Sun v Sand. Does anyone have as much doubt on this topic as I do? I prefer the game as is, I don't know why.

~AoH
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

As I stated before, Tornadus-T seems to have some potential even without weather. Although I'm not sure if it should be banned. While Keldeo actually gets most of its power in rain, so yeah, let it stay.
Banning rain isn't going to solve something. It will ruin the playstyle of many players, and eventually ruin the competitive community.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Tornadus-T technically can do everything outside of rain...if he hits his Hurricane. Honestly, I feel like the accuracy nerf if enough to keep him viable but not broken. Keldeo is okay in rain and therefore the banning of rain will hurt him, but he still has a really powerful Hydro Pump and Secret Sword. He'll still be decent. We'll killing a couple playstyles by nuking rain, but the resulting power drop will, imo, open up the way for many new playstyles. Besides, there's always the move rain dance, especially because you can always use Swift Swimmers alongside it. I think very few mons will actually drop out of OU as a result of rain's ban, and there's a good chance that more will become viable in it. I don't think this can decrease the number of available mons and playstyles unless sun and sand do truly become dominant. If you think that sand and sun will rule the metagame uncontested without rain, that's only proving how broken rain currently is as it has an innate advantage against both of them. Plus, if weatherless and hail teams are at least mostly viable now in this rain-infested meta, I can't see them becoming any worse as a result of its banning, They may change to counter sun and sand more than rain, but sun and sand never had as much going for them and that will make it easier and open up more diversity for anti-weather teams. Besides, we can always ban sand and sun if they get out of hand too.


#BANALLTHINGS
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Manaphy can rot in ubers. instant +3 with straight up 100 defenses. The day that comes into OU is the day I quit.


...anyways ON topic now, I lol at how Smogon is just as unhappy with this suspect test as we are. It got so bad that they had to start warning people for posting "lol just test drizzle instead" in their thread. Anyways the way it looks, pretty much everybody agrees that Keldeo isn't broken, although I am actually seeing people debate about Tornadus-T. I myself don't think it's uber, I think Rain is the real problem. Tornadus-T in my opinion is like Excadrill and Sand Veil Garchomp: they aren't uber without their weather. However, since Smogon seems so set on keeping Drizzle in the meta (they literally said 'Drizzle is completely and utterly off the table -.-), I can certainly understand the arugment behind ubering Tornadus-T.

Tornadus-T technically can do everything outside of rain...if he hits his Hurricane.
Click to expand...
eh. Nobody uses Thunder outside of rain. IDK why Hurricane would be any different.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

TPO3 said:
Tornadus-T technically can do everything outside of rain...if he hits his Hurricane.
Click to expand...
eh. Nobody uses Thunder outside of rain. IDK why Hurricane would be any different.
Click to expand...

Exactly, that's why rain's banning actually hurts him enough for him to be OU with it banned, but still viable. Thunder isn't used outside of rain because Thunderbolt is really good too. You need to hit around 3/4 of your Thunders for it to deal the same damage as 4 Thunderbolts, which isn't so bad but the chance of it missing when you need it to hit makes it riskier so people run Thunderbolt. However, if your other STAB option is as weak as Air Slash, then the 70 accuracy for 120 base power is acceptable, so Tornadus-T will still be using Hurricane outside of rain.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Yeah, maybe you can say so...
Still... Tornadus-T also has Regenerator combined with U-Turn and its slight focus on Def makes it annoying. But I agree that it's possible for it to be OU. Keldeo is like a special version of Terrakion. It is powerful, but it has its counters. So it can qualify for OU, but not for Ubers.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

inb4 fog weather

Both suspects are lolsy for Ubers, Tornadus-T's Hurricane and Regenerator is nice, but it's not gamebreaking. Keldeo isn't really OP at all, as it must run HP Ghost if it plans on not getting totally walled by Jellicent, which even then Jellicent has Recover and awsome Sp. Def. It's really smarter to do what Smogon is saying it won't; to ban rain.

Edit: Sorry Hyper :p don't even know what's going on with the bans other than what appears everyone has posted. I just got out of it that they're banning atleast something (Rain or Tornadus-T)
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Smogon has already stated that they will not ban Drizzle. That's why the suspects are Tornadus-T and Keldeo, and not Drizzle. Rain will still continue to exist and thrive, even if both of these Pokemon get banned.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

I'm pretty much echoing what other people have said, but this is ridiculous. First off, Keldeo is nowhere near broken. Sure it has the strongest Hydro Pump in the game, but that doesn't really prove anything. Zweilous has the most powerful outrage in the game, lets ban him quick. I know that's a stretch, but really it shows how ridiculous banning Keldeo would be. It has its fair share of checks and counters and its speed stat isn't exactly phenomenal. Its a great mon, don't get me wrong, but its not Uber material.

Tornadus-T, on the other hand, is more debatable. The combination of the awesome speed tier and STAB Hurricane is enough to throw the majority of OU off its rocker. I wouldn't mind seeing it go as it can just keep U-Turning out of its counter switch-ins until they die from entry hazards/Dugtrio/somethingelse. Its more of an annoyance than a real threat imo.

Sooner or later Smogon is going to have to address the calls for Drizzle bans, especially with this latest suspect test.
 
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