BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

[Uralya]

Hey, first thread in this section of the forum, but it is something I consider a pretty big deal.

Smogon OU Suspect Test Thread​

This suspect test is quite the controversial one judging by the thread so far. This time, the suspects are none other than:

One is the destroyer of worlds with a fast and powerful Hurricane while being deceptively bulky and providing great momentum. The latter is easier to deal with but has the most powerful Hydro Pump in the game and is quite problematic with a Choice Scarf.

Until January 11, there will be a suspect ladder up on PS!, with these two obviously gone. So, as a means of promoting discussion, here are a few questions.
-What Pokemon would rise in usage from either's departure?
-What Pokemon would fall in usage?
-What Pokemon would you use in place of either of them?
-How might the weather wars shift with rain losing a bit of offense?
-Will rain offense decline as a result? Will a new rain playstyle develop in its place?
-Are they likely to be banned? Why (not)?
-etc.

Go ahead. I feel that Tornadus-I will be pretty happy, and I can see Keldeo's place being taken by things like Starmie, Choice Rotom-W, Sharpedo, and even Feraligatr and Empoleon. Maybe Terrakion too.

Edit: lol, forgot to say that I disapprove of banning either.

~AoH

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

I'm Bippa and I totally dissaprove of this decision.

Running a Choice scarf user is not hard to beat Tornadus-T, and its not just something you do to beat Tornadus-T. Several Pokemon can be beaten with a Choice Scarf user. Terrakion and Rotom-W make short work out of any Tornadus-T with Choice Scarfs. If you're going defensive, you've got Jirachi who takes hits for days. The Life Orb set, Tornadus-T's most common set, has several counters.

*Ignore Zapdos since this calc I'm using doesn't factor in SR damage, same with all the Dragonites.

As for Keldeo, I'm going to be amazingly surprised if it gets voted. It's incredibly easy to handle due how its massive amount of counters get going. The Specs set is a bit difficult to take hits from, but its easier to take hits from Specs Keldeo than it is to take hits from Band Terrakion. Keldeo's most common set is the Scarf set, so here's the counters to that set:

That list of counters is really quite big, and they're all pretty easy to fit on a team. Latias or Tentacruel can fit on nearly every team, both on offense or defense.

Also I really have to say how stupid it is to suspect test these two as opposed to testing Drizzle, which is really the problem here. They need to stop beating around the bush and just ban the problem. Rain will move on in the event these two go, and they're still going to keep going as they ban more rain sweepers.

Anyways, to answer your questions:

For what Pokemon rise in usage, probably quite a bit of sun. Ninetales has an easy time switching in without Keldeo, and Venusaur has an easier time setting up. Thundurus-T is going to soar in usage to make up for Tornadus-T and Keldeo's departure. Terrakion is also going to get more usage because it doesn't have to gamble with speed ties with Keldeo, and lose to Torn-T switchins.

I don't think anything will fall in usage. People don't run one specific Pokemon to counter these because they, especially Keldeo, have viable counters that fit any team style in OU.

What will I use in place of them? Agility Thundurus-T and Terrakion. Thundurus-T will be the next suspect if Tornadus-T goes, because its actually difficult to take hits from any is one of the fastest Pokemon to boot. Terrakion is already a fantastic Pokemon in its own right, has excellent choice sets and fits on any offensive team in any weather.

Rain will still be the most used weather. It's still amazingly versatile and has lots of toys left to use, like Thundurus-T and Starmie. Ninetales will get a bit more usage, but it won't replace Tyranitar in the top 10 any time soon. Abomasnow will still continue to suck, and Hippowdon won't go anywhere.

Rain offense won't decline in usage because they've got more tools to use. Rain stall takes next to no hit from this ban, and rain balance will still bounce be able to bounce back.

I can see Tornadus-T being banned, as much as I oppose the ban. I'm on the fence about Keldeo's future even though I think it doesn't deserve the boot.

Time to make a new team and get the reqs. There's no going back.

 

[Dork Void]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

this is sort of like my #BANALLTHINGS idea

instead of banning drizzle and making at least the move rain dance semi-viable along with a plethora of non-banned and now more balanced Pokemon, we ban every single weather abuser except the guys who set it up until every form of weather is completely useless. Logic. If any of these guys get banned, that will just make it more difficult and take longer for Drizzle itself to go, and then we'll have like 10-15 Pokemon slowly filter back into OU. It makes a lot of sense when you don't think about it.

 

[PG24]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

I agree with Dark Void that this is stupid for that reason. Instead of making weathers less and less viable through banning the abusers, we should instead ban the weathers and use the 10 or 15 Pokemon we would've banned. The way things look now, we're going to be dealing with a rather sticky situation when we finally do ban the weathers and are forced to resuspect the previous Pokemon we removed from the tier.

There's no denying that some of the Pokemon being suspected are broken. That's not the point though. The point is that we're banning the enitre Pokemon when we can save them by banning the root of the problem (weather).

 

[Uralya]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

"That list of counters is really quite big, and they're all pretty easy to fit on a team. Latias or Tentacruel can fit on nearly every team, both on offense or defense."

I don't think I've ever agreed so much on that statement. Latias must be my favorite Pokemon to use on teams (that's saying something considering how useful LatiOs is).

I also agree that Keldeo is not exactly worthy of being banned. Given that list of counters, I'd say that almost all teams (beside Dragonzone) carry a counter/check to it. On the Tornadus-T side though, I believe it will get the boot. Overcentralization on Jirachi and Rotom-W has become a problem, even though I have grown to like them both. That Hurricane on 121 Speed is somewhat powerful even in light of it not using a Modest nature. Tornadus-I more than compensates though, with that still-good 111 Speed.

In regards to the rain ban, I don't advocate that either. It ruins so many sorts of teams (rain offense, rain stall, rain balance, SubKyurem-oriented, dual weather, semistall, anti-weather, etc.). Rain is the best neutral weather besides Hail imo.

~AoH

 

[One Approved]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Latias or Tentacruel can fit on nearly every team, both on offense or defense."

Ummm... no. I would not put tentacruel on an Offensive team, that would lose way too much momentum. It has 0 offensive presence, and its support moves can be used by Starmie (rapid spin) or are just lame (Toxic Spikes).

...Also, people wonder why I play UU. This is the most ridiculous suspecting I've ever seen. Instead of banning the stuff that weather makes broken, why not just ban the weather and save 12 mons from ubers?

 

[Dork Void]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

It looks like most of Pokebeach* agree that we should ban Drizzle and not Tornadus-T and Keldeo! Its time to break free from the mold of conformity and finally use the Pokebeach tier system that has been identical to Smogon's forever!


*the three people who responded

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Latias or Tentacruel can fit on nearly every team, both on offense or defense."

Ummm... no. I would not put tentacruel on an Offensive team, that would lose way too much momentum. It has 0 offensive presence, and its support moves can be used by Starmie (rapid spin) or are just lame (Toxic Spikes).

What I meant was "You can fit one of Latias or Tentacruel on every team, both on offense or defense". Not that you can put Tentacruel on an offense team, cause that's a bad idea. Offensive teams can fit Latias on them though.

 

[Uralya]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

@TPO3: Unless you're referencing Bippa's quote, I was only talking about Latias. It's so versatile.

Are there any alternatives to killing the weather that don't ban the Pokemon? Maybe banning the move Hurricane? That worked with Dark Void (the move) after all.

~AoH

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Hurricane is only broken imo when Tornadus-T uses it. Dragonite and Volcarona aren't broken with it.

Killing the weather is unfortunately the only way we'll probably be able to save them, unless someone gets creative.

 

[Uralya]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

And this is the time when we decide to only ban Tornadus-T and go back to the days of Tornadus-I. I honestly bet that will be what's going to happen.

~AoH

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Maybe. But I don't see it being nearly as dominant due to the speed tier difference and the obvious lack of Regenerator. Probably going to be mid-low tier OU at best.

 

[Uralya]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Note, in no way do I expect Tornadus-I to catch fire with OU battlers, but he will be the best Hurricane user if -T is booted (aside from Moltres if you know what I mean). I bet he'll reach about 7-8% in the first month after -T is gone, then drop to 4-5% as always. People will begin to abuse Terrakion, Thundurus-T and Garchomp in its place (Zapdos may get its DW ability too).

I just hope that no weather is ever banned. No matter how unfair it may seem, it's a problem I've gotten used to. Please, someone, get creative if this problem is brought up.

~AoH

 

[DNA]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

this is sort of like my #BANALLTHINGS idea

I find it extremely childish of the Smogon suspect testers that they are testing abusers of the problem rather than the problem itself. Tornadus-T and Keldeo are threats to be sure, yes, but without Drizzle on their side their efficacy is hampered severely (almost completely).

They've gone too far. I believe it's time we made our own banlist, adapting from the existing one. We should get a few people willing to test Drizzle for Suspect, because honestly, that's the biggest problem here.

I don't want Drizzle to be banned, but this is just speaking from a personal opinion standpoint. Granted, Drizzle is still a problem, and a very real one, but testing Tornadus-T and Keldeo is not the right way to go about fixing it. This is by no means a new thing either - most of the suspect tests as of late have had something to do, either directly or indirectly, with weather (except for maybe Genesect). What's the problem? Obviously it's the weather, and the choices for this suspect testing (Tornadus-T is understandable, but Keldeo is not) only serve to reinforce that.

And now for the light-hearted portion of my post!

Smogon is like a demented Santa.
"And what do you want for Christmas, little girl?"
"A pony!"
"...I'll get back to you on that."

Merry Christmas and Happy Rofldays from the Realm of OU.

 

[Uralya]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

"We should get a few people willing to test Drizzle for Suspect, because honestly, that's the biggest problem here."

What, 3-5 people? And would we do it on the PS! server, PO, or our own? I'd like to as long as I have free time.

Now, agreed that suspect testing weather abusers seems stupid, remember that it seemed to work on Mr. OP Sand in the mid-BW1 era (Excadrill and Garchomp). Would that be the case here too? I would think not, seeing as how Rain doesn't look to suffer nearly as much if they both get the boot. They have Thundurus-T, Kyurem(-B), Tornadus, Starmie, Terrakion, Zapdos, Feraligatr, Salamence, Lati@s, etc. Sand had ... Stoutland, Terrakion, and Landorus. Something seems off.

~AoH

 

[doublenikesocks]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

I wouldn't consider Kyurem, Lati@s, Terrakion rain abusers. But you're right rain is so much more broken than Sand or Sun have ever been. The problem is Tornadus-T, who provides a pivot, nuke, and revenge killer all in one. I am in support of banning Tornadus, but not Keldeo (coming of someone who almost has reqs lol). Keldeo is not broken, it is powerful.

I guess testing Drizzle would be cool too, but that ruins a whole playstyle and is excessive. Sun would be completely broken in a rainless metagame.

 

[DNA]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

"We should get a few people willing to test Drizzle for Suspect, because honestly, that's the biggest problem here."

What, 3-5 people? And would we do it on the PS! server, PO, or our own? I'd like to as long as I have free time.

I'm not super-savvy in the competitive field, so whatever you guys think up will probably be a good idea. I'm not sure what people use more and what gives the best results.
I'm just the idea guy; I'm not very good with execution.

I guess testing Drizzle would be cool too, but that ruins a whole playstyle and is excessive. Sun would be completely broken in a rainless metagame.

^

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

A drought + chlorophyll ban (ala Aladron's proposal for sun), sounds nice in theory, but it pretty much kills sun due to how they only have the Chlorophyll sweepers to abuse the weather with (and Volcarona I guess?).

Almost done teambuilding for the suspect ladder, then I'm going to spend the rest of my winter break going up to hit reqs. #SAVEKELDEO

 

[Blui]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

Hurricane is only broken imo when Tornadus-T uses it. Dragonite and Volcarona aren't broken with it.

Everyone run Scarf Raikou. provided that Tornadus isn't on 252 Spe @ Choice Scarf you outspeed it. In the rain Thunder obviously hits for 300BP which always gets a OHKO. Plus Thunderbolt itself gets a 100% OHKO. While it can't switch in on it when Tornadus KOs something just Raikou it.
Now you'll probably be thinking, "why run Raikou just for Tornadus?". You can use Raikou against so much, HP-Ice/Thunderbolt/Weather Ball/Aura Sphere has great coverage against anything that isn't a special wall. Keldeo is also OHKO'd.
It isn't too good but can be great on weather teams.

Also, I think Tornadus will get the boot to Uber.

 

[DNA]

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

lol Rash nature Raikou