BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

After a long boring argument with Lavos Spawn on Smogon, I have changed my mind on Tornadus-T. It is very comparable to Genesect, high power, high speed, U-Turn, and 1 hard counter that is killed by Dugtrio. It's one counter is Spd Jirachi, and that is easily killed by Dugtrio. One that Jirachi is weakened or destroyed, it can just sweep through teams, heal, and go back to sweeping.

I will being voting to ban Tornadus-T in the voting thread.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

And that pretty much sums it up I guess. Echoing my thoughts.
All that's left on that is banning Drizzle completely, leading to the return of many rain abusers back in OU. We should discuss it in another thread, though.
 
RE: Smogon BW2 OU Suspect Test #9 Discussion

HEY! Let's all ban Miltank because it has higher Base Speed than Rayquaza! It's easy to weaken Tornadus-T via change weather, or have a revenge killer on hand, he has frail defenses, and thanks to pure flying, he doesn't resist priority outside of Mach Punch.
 
Equinox said:
HEY! Let's all ban Miltank because it has higher Base Speed than Rayquaza! It's easy to weaken Tornadus-T via change weather, or have a revenge killer on hand, he has frail defenses, and thanks to pure flying, he doesn't resist priority outside of Mach Punch.
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This is what this thread has boiled down to. Back to the main topic please. besides Pokemon can only move up or down from the ban list every three months, duh

Anyway I think the Keldeo ban is ridiculous, but the Tornadus-T one is acceptable. When will Smogon realize that the weather itself is the problem? If Tornadus-T moves up I'd like to see Tornadus return to OU. It's still a good Mon, it's just having trouble competing with Tornadus-T.

Also a quick opinion on our own banlist. I think it is a good idea, but we shouldn't just keep it to Pokebeach. Like I said earlier in some other thread, many small forums simply follow Smogon's banlist because it looks the most professional. Even we do it, actually. Maybe we need to start migrating these ideas to other forums so they will be more effective.
 
The Yoshi, you summed it up pretty well. Torn-T out, Keldeo in, but the rain seriously needs to go. So, the qualities of Tornadus-T that could give it the boot include (hopefully all of these):
- U-turn
- Regenerator
- ability to wear "counters" to death and outlive them
- Hurricane
- Speed
- Superpower
- invulnerability to hazards
- only able to be checked

Tell me if I forgot any. That's what I can compile in my experiences using and facing Torn-T. It has beaten SDefrachi time and time again for me, and vice-versa for my opponent. That expert switching it possesses in U-turn plus the ability to heal by 8% or 33% (depending on SR) each time it retreats can wear down its "counters" enough to where they could be KOed by the move they are supposed to tank. Its one true "counter," Jirachi, is destroyed by Dugtrio, a common partner. Add in Superpower, and it can beat Tyranitar in the snap of a finger, an otherwise good check. It also has the unpredictability factor on its side on whether it could be LO or Specs (or Scarf, physical, EBelt, etc). What I'm saying in one sentence is that Torn-T has many traits that allow it to wear down its supposed counters so much that they aren't even counters, and thus may be another (less noticed) version of Genesect, able to be banned.

Hopefully, Smogon can save it later though. As of now, we have a good idea in the rain ban, but agreed with The Yoshi (brilliant idea), we should probably spread ours around.

~AoH
 
The whole thing is not about spreading. Each site should make its own banlist. Now if people are too bored or they consider Smogon experts on everything, that's a different story. And, once again, it's off-topic:).
Back to the Keldeo-Torn-T story. I think we all agree that Keldeo is just a strong mon, with its pros and cons. In no way uber. Torn-T again is very hard to counter and can play in a million playstyles except rain. So it probably goes out.
Banning rain is another thing we need to discuss. But, even if you ban rain, don't bring Thundurus-I and Tornadus-T back, please!
 
Honesty I don't think Tornadus-T is broken by itself. I only want to ban it to nerf rain. If rain is still op, I would support a combined Drizzle + Drought suspect test.
 
I know now why Keldeo is being suspected.

December OU Usage Stats
Code: 
| 36   | Jellicent          | 60178  |  6.258% 
| 46   | Latias             | 51380  |  5.343%
| 47   | Celebi             | 49069  |  5.103%

Its counters are so rarely used. These are all incredible Pokemon that counter more than just Keldeo, with all three of them being decent ways around multiple rain threats (all three struggle with Torn-T though), while countering more threats (Jellicent and Celebi can counter Scarf Terrakion, while Latias beats Rotom-W and several Sun threats such as Venusaur (barring Sludge Bomb).

This has been Bippa with an attempt to raise Jellicent, Latias and Celebi awareness.
 
Honestly this is getting ridiculous. Don't get me wrong I personally think Torn-T is broken but everytime Smogon bans a Pokemon something else becomes more broken than the last think. I swear to God the metagame would be better if we left everything unbanned (SS+Drizzle, Excadrill, Sand Veil Chomp, Blaziken, etc.) as it would make weather more balanced than it is now which is really ironic considering they banned everything best for the respective weathers.

Also I think weather is important for the metagame so I am not a fan of banning Drizzle. If you ban drizzle soon Sun will be more potent and we'll end up banning that too.
 
Bippa said:
I know now why Keldeo is being suspected.

December OU Usage Stats
Code: 
| 36   | Jellicent          | 60178  |  6.258% 
| 46   | Latias             | 51380  |  5.343%
| 47   | Celebi             | 49069  |  5.103%

Its counters are so rarely used. These are all incredible Pokemon that counter more than just Keldeo, with all three of them being decent ways around multiple rain threats (all three struggle with Torn-T though), while countering more threats (Jellicent and Celebi can counter Scarf Terrakion, while Latias beats Rotom-W and several Sun threats such as Venusaur (barring Sludge Bomb).

This has been Bippa with an attempt to raise Jellicent, Latias and Celebi awareness.
Click to expand...

I believe you copied the exact feeling from the Smogon OU December Stats thread. I read the exact same opinions there. I do agree though. For the pair of most lolzy suspects statwise, they are suspects only because their counters are either often only checks (Torn-T) or are severely underused (Keldeo). We need to bring Latias and Celebi usage up, as they wall much of the metagame, especially since Genesect is long gone.

~AoH
 
going to start trying in a few days. I don't think either should be banned, possibly Tornadus-T, but not Keldeo.
 
Bumping this because results are posted.

Keldeo: 62 OU, 11 Uber, 7 Abstain = 15.07% Uber
Tornadus-T: 22 OU, 54 Uber, 4 Abstain = 71.05% Uber

I think Keldeo's Uber% is the lowest I've seen in 5th Gen testing. At least it's staying around.

Bye bye Birdy. Have fun in Ubers. This pretty much confirms that UU is losing Tornadus-I in the next tier shift.
 
Overjoyed that Keldeo is still here, but not surprised.

In case anyone needs assurance on Bippa's data, here you go: Suspect Results

Also, as per post-ban discussion, I would like to know what everyone thinks will take the place of Tornadus-T in teams. I think Thundurus-T and Tornadus will get more usage (the former will likely skyrocket), but they both require spin support unlike To-T. What spinner would you use? Tentacruel, Starmie, or Forretress, or could either suffice on its own?

~AoH
 
FINALLY THE MENACE HAS FALLEN

TIME FOR IT TO BE REPLACED WITH ITS ONLY SLIGHTLY INFERIOR BROTHER

BAN THAT TOO

#BANALLTHINGS

or just ban drizzle
 
Beyond Tornadus-I's obvious jump into OU, I'm predicting a rise in Dragonite and Thundurus-T to make up for a lack of Tornadus-T. I'm also thinking we might see more variety in Keldeo's movesets since it lost a great check.
 
Get ready for some Amoongus. Tornadus-T made its life hell; now that that's gone I can see a rise in Amoongus. This is actually a good change as Amoongus is a great answer to the rise in usage Keldeo will get.
 
Bippa said:
Beyond Tornadus-I's obvious jump into OU, I'm predicting a rise in Dragonite and Thundurus-T to make up for a lack of Tornadus-T. I'm also thinking we might see more variety in Keldeo's movesets since it lost a great check.
Click to expand...

YES YES YES. I will enjoy using Specs Keldeo so much more now, now that Big Bird won't switch in and kill it every time. CM Keldeo with HP Ghost will gain some ground, it lost one of its main checks. Time to use some more Ttar+Keldeo.
 
So, among Keldeo's movesets, all but Scarf Keldeo were nerfed by the presence of Tornadus-T. Now, Keldeo has these options:
Scarf (primary set as of now)
Specs (back with a vengeance)
CM with HP Ghost (standard)
SubCM (still extremely wallable)

Then there are my personal versions:
LO Taunt (rare, but it works like Terrakion's version)
SubSalac (wallable, but it gets a Quiver Dance)

How else might Keldeo be used? What sets will dominate over the others?

~AoH
 
I think Keldeo will frequently use the Specs set when paired with Tyranitar. Tyranitar does a great job at eliminating Latias, Latios, Starmie and sometimes Alakazam, which pretty much only leaves Amoonguss and Toxicroak left as the counters for it.
 
Well now Celebi and other bulky Grass types screw rain over even further, as all the other users of Hurricane are easier to wear down with Hazards than Tornadus-T. Also, we need to be more wary of Scarf Rotom Wash as the need to tank Hurricanes has gone down substantially. Jolteon is most likely going back to the depths of UU, as well as Weavile.
 
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