RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Also, Chatot is banned because of the move Chatter.
Also, Chatot is banned because of the move Chatter.
PokeBeach's Official 5th Gen Ban List
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RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
The problem with this is that Nintendo's banlist is terrible if what you want is variety in teambuilding (or really a balanced metagame at all). Plenty of Pokemon that are banned on it are weaker than or at least not any better than unbanned Pokemon. What's the point on banning them then? That only decreases the variety in teambuilding.
The whole core of teambuilding and competitive battling in general is adapting to the variety of threats in the game. However, there are plenty of Pokemon that simply have no good counters. They are guaranteed to take out at least one opposing Pokemon every time they come in so long as they are used right regardless of anything the other player can do. That's not adapting. That's simply using Pokemon that are far stronger than all of the other ones and that creates a metagame centered around these very few far stronger Pokemon. Many of these Pokemon aren't even legendary, but their base stats are high and for whatever reason (often a very strong ability coupled with a good moveset and typing) they are so powerful that leaving them in the game actually decreases the variety in teams because every team must use them. By banning these few Pokemon that are just a bit too much stronger than the others, a much greater number of Pokemon can then be used that couldn't before because of how centralizing the now-banned Pokemon were.
AdrianD said:
The problem with this is that Nintendo's banlist is terrible if what you want is variety in teambuilding (or really a balanced metagame at all). Plenty of Pokemon that are banned on it are weaker than or at least not any better than unbanned Pokemon. What's the point on banning them then? That only decreases the variety in teambuilding.
The whole core of teambuilding and competitive battling in general is adapting to the variety of threats in the game. However, there are plenty of Pokemon that simply have no good counters. They are guaranteed to take out at least one opposing Pokemon every time they come in so long as they are used right regardless of anything the other player can do. That's not adapting. That's simply using Pokemon that are far stronger than all of the other ones and that creates a metagame centered around these very few far stronger Pokemon. Many of these Pokemon aren't even legendary, but their base stats are high and for whatever reason (often a very strong ability coupled with a good moveset and typing) they are so powerful that leaving them in the game actually decreases the variety in teams because every team must use them. By banning these few Pokemon that are just a bit too much stronger than the others, a much greater number of Pokemon can then be used that couldn't before because of how centralizing the now-banned Pokemon were.
J
Juliacoolo
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I'm shocked. I really don't think Landorus-I meets any requirements for going Uber.
I'm shocked. I really don't think Landorus-I meets any requirements for going Uber.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Explain how Landorus didn't overcentralize the game with its unpredictability (is it rock polish? is it u-turn? is it swords dance?), ability to ignore counters with the Keldeo / Landorus / Tyranitar combo (plus Celebi if you want more fun with Nasty Plot Baton Pass), and pretty much forcing the use of Baton Pass Celebi (who is beat by U-Turn lure if played right).
Games vs Landorus come down to coin flips and guessing. Predict wrong and you lost.
Jay said:
Explain how Landorus didn't overcentralize the game with its unpredictability (is it rock polish? is it u-turn? is it swords dance?), ability to ignore counters with the Keldeo / Landorus / Tyranitar combo (plus Celebi if you want more fun with Nasty Plot Baton Pass), and pretty much forcing the use of Baton Pass Celebi (who is beat by U-Turn lure if played right).
Games vs Landorus come down to coin flips and guessing. Predict wrong and you lost.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I have to agree with this. Just because it has 145 Base Attack is no reason for it to be Uber. 91 is a troll Speed, but that's nothing game-breaking. If the Landorus does not have Choice Scarf, it is vulnerable to such Pokemon as Starmie, Latios, and Infernape.
Jay said:
I have to agree with this. Just because it has 145 Base Attack is no reason for it to be Uber. 91 is a troll Speed, but that's nothing game-breaking. If the Landorus does not have Choice Scarf, it is vulnerable to such Pokemon as Starmie, Latios, and Infernape.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
I didn't want Landorus-I to be thrown out, but I guess it needs to be done. He's fun to use, but annoyingly unpredictable. Overcentralizing to where BP Celebi was pretty much a given on teams is somewhat like how Tornadus-T forced Jirachi to rise in usage. I won't argue with the ban, but I found him only as overpowered as was enough to keep him in OU but in contention for banning perennially.
Bye-bye, Calrissian, we won't ever forget you.
~AoH
I didn't want Landorus-I to be thrown out, but I guess it needs to be done. He's fun to use, but annoyingly unpredictable. Overcentralizing to where BP Celebi was pretty much a given on teams is somewhat like how Tornadus-T forced Jirachi to rise in usage. I won't argue with the ban, but I found him only as overpowered as was enough to keep him in OU but in contention for banning perennially.
Bye-bye, Calrissian, we won't ever forget you.
~AoH
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Pretty much all of this. Landorus's unpredictability was incredible. Things that "beat" the RP set lose to the U-turn set, and vice versa. It centralized the metagame pretty hardcore, and made matches come down to guessing games.
I'm honestly shocked you don't see why it was broken. The ridiculous amounts of power the Rock Polish set possesses alone makes it pretty close. (It's a special attacker that 2HKO's Blissey and Chansey.) The fact that it can run Physical sets on top of it is just incredible. Very simlarily to Excadrill, Rock Polish Landorus almost singlehandedly makes Hyper Offense teams unviable. With just the one turn of setup, Landorus can outspeed and OHKO pretty much anything that would be used on a HO team. There are very few pokemon that are even close to viable on HO (ie: Latios, Gengar) that can "counter" Landorus, and all of them have flaws that are very easy to exploit.
EDIT: In other news, Keldeo is next for the suspect tests...
Pretty much all of this. Landorus's unpredictability was incredible. Things that "beat" the RP set lose to the U-turn set, and vice versa. It centralized the metagame pretty hardcore, and made matches come down to guessing games.
I'm honestly shocked you don't see why it was broken. The ridiculous amounts of power the Rock Polish set possesses alone makes it pretty close. (It's a special attacker that 2HKO's Blissey and Chansey.) The fact that it can run Physical sets on top of it is just incredible. Very simlarily to Excadrill, Rock Polish Landorus almost singlehandedly makes Hyper Offense teams unviable. With just the one turn of setup, Landorus can outspeed and OHKO pretty much anything that would be used on a HO team. There are very few pokemon that are even close to viable on HO (ie: Latios, Gengar) that can "counter" Landorus, and all of them have flaws that are very easy to exploit.
EDIT: In other news, Keldeo is next for the suspect tests...
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Well, after this dust is over, do we have a viable replacement for Lando-I? Or is the reign of Rock Polish finally over (lol)? The only possible thing that comes to mind is Thundurus-T.
[private]We ought to start a thread for this Lando-I discussion, shouldn't we?
[/private]
~AoH
Well, after this dust is over, do we have a viable replacement for Lando-I? Or is the reign of Rock Polish finally over (lol)? The only possible thing that comes to mind is Thundurus-T.
[private]We ought to start a thread for this Lando-I discussion, shouldn't we?
[/private]~AoH
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
No. All Blazikens, regardless of ability, are banned.
No. All Blazikens, regardless of ability, are banned.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Nope. All Blaziken are banned. The reason is that you have to either ban Blaziken or ban Speen Boost, and Speed Boost as an ability is not broken, it's just the one Pokémon that abuses it.
debugs said:
Nope. All Blaziken are banned. The reason is that you have to either ban Blaziken or ban Speen Boost, and Speed Boost as an ability is not broken, it's just the one Pokémon that abuses it.
RE: PokeBeach's Official Ban List
Because doing complex bans sets a really bad precedent. If we say "oh, blaziken isn't broken without Speed Boost" then what's stopping us from saying the same thing with other ubers? (ex: "Oh, Ho-oh isn't broken without Regenerator. Oh, Tornadus-T isn't broken without Hurricane." etc.)
A suspect test is when Smogon puts up 2 seperate ladders, one that allows the suspect (in this case, Landorus) and one that doesn't. People who ladder to a high enough rating on both ladders can vote on whether or not Landorus-I gets banned. If you'd like to see this idea in action, smogon is currently doing the same thing for UU. They have a UU current and a UU Suspect Test ladder up, one allowing Froslass, and one that doesn't.
Because doing complex bans sets a really bad precedent. If we say "oh, blaziken isn't broken without Speed Boost" then what's stopping us from saying the same thing with other ubers? (ex: "Oh, Ho-oh isn't broken without Regenerator. Oh, Tornadus-T isn't broken without Hurricane." etc.)
A suspect test is when Smogon puts up 2 seperate ladders, one that allows the suspect (in this case, Landorus) and one that doesn't. People who ladder to a high enough rating on both ladders can vote on whether or not Landorus-I gets banned. If you'd like to see this idea in action, smogon is currently doing the same thing for UU. They have a UU current and a UU Suspect Test ladder up, one allowing Froslass, and one that doesn't.