(1) First BW5 'Dragon Blade / Dragon Blast' Cards Revealed! [2/2]
- Thread starter Water Pokémon Master
- Start date
DNA said:
xD Glad I could help?
Though it doesn't really explain the Fighting / Metal costs for the Haxorus line... Its main colors are yellow, gray, and red, so I would think Electric, Metal (which works here), and Fire would be the choices... I guess the red could also be Fighting in Haxorus' case? Maybe they took the "axes" part of its line literally and thought of metal blades and lots of power (thus the Fighting). I dunno.
And I guess Rayquaza got Fire/Electric to match the red and yellow designs on its body.
DNA said:
That had already been mentioned before in this topic
... Still, in the Hoenn days, I don't think they used that correctly... Sure, Salamence still had Fire/Water and Flygon had Grass/Electric... But Latios ex also used Grass/Electric (although I think that's because it was originally released in a Flygon half deck and Latias was in a Salamence half deck). Dragonite and Altaria both had Water/Electric instead of their current ones. I guess they got it right with these new cards. And I agree about the Haxorus explanation, I was thinking about that too...
Since Venusaur/Blaziken/Empoleon was in BW4, would we be seeing something like Torterra/Charizard/Swampert in here? As long as Charizard makes it in, I'm fine with something like that
I'm liking the revealed cards. I'm trying to save up for at least one of the boxes.
I'm liking the revealed cards. I'm trying to save up for at least one of the boxes.
I think Ninetales is being a bit under-estimated. Sure, in our CURRENT format, it's useless with all the Pokemon Catchers and Junk Arms flying around. This would essentially mean that you'd almost always have access to Catcher via the card itself, or Junk Arm.
However, bear in mind that we're likely to only recieve the Dark Rush stuff pre-Nats, and seing as this Dragon Blade/Blast set is after the Dark Rush set, it's fairly safe to assume that this set will arrive when our format converts to BW-on, meaning that we lose Junk Arm (along with its versatility that makes Catcher so easily accessable every turn), also meaning that we only have catcher half the time in turn. How does this help Ninetales, you ask?
Well, it's SEARCHABLE via Pokemon Communication and Level Ball, for one. Tack on the fact that it can double as an attacker when paired with Amoonguss's ability (confuse and poison the defending pokemon when Amoonguss evolves) and the potential De-evolution spray this set will bring, and Ninetales can become quite scary. Game breaking? Probably not, but it IS a card that should be watched closely. It's usable as a tech under trainer lock or even just as a "searchable Catcher." Don't forget that Ninetales can hit the magic 130 damage number (120 damage with 10 from the poison tick), and if an easy-to-access Burn inflicter ever arises, it can compete head-to-head with the EX Pokemon (180 would be its damage after the poison tick and the magic number needed to one-shot EX Pokemon as well). Sure, they could have an Evolite attached, but that's what Pluspowers and/or Rocker Helmet is for.
However, bear in mind that we're likely to only recieve the Dark Rush stuff pre-Nats, and seing as this Dragon Blade/Blast set is after the Dark Rush set, it's fairly safe to assume that this set will arrive when our format converts to BW-on, meaning that we lose Junk Arm (along with its versatility that makes Catcher so easily accessable every turn), also meaning that we only have catcher half the time in turn. How does this help Ninetales, you ask?
Well, it's SEARCHABLE via Pokemon Communication and Level Ball, for one. Tack on the fact that it can double as an attacker when paired with Amoonguss's ability (confuse and poison the defending pokemon when Amoonguss evolves) and the potential De-evolution spray this set will bring, and Ninetales can become quite scary. Game breaking? Probably not, but it IS a card that should be watched closely. It's usable as a tech under trainer lock or even just as a "searchable Catcher." Don't forget that Ninetales can hit the magic 130 damage number (120 damage with 10 from the poison tick), and if an easy-to-access Burn inflicter ever arises, it can compete head-to-head with the EX Pokemon (180 would be its damage after the poison tick and the magic number needed to one-shot EX Pokemon as well). Sure, they could have an Evolite attached, but that's what Pluspowers and/or Rocker Helmet is for.
Amoongus+Ninetales+Devolution Spray = Lots of fast damage + Catcher
I think that combo can work really well after all. I loved Leafeon UL, with more damage and catcher as ability it could be like instant kill on anything you want (except EX)
I love Gabite. Perfect for support and usable evolution too, plus Altaria that could make itself a game. Ability Hydreigon is a really good card, mixing it with previously Dark Rush cards.
Roserade can be useful if given the chance, but with catcher around I'm not pretty sure.
Devolution Spray is the "best" card on the set, according with what we have seen it can combo with many things (Gabite, Roserade, Ninetales, even Shiftry could make great use)
One question, can I devolve a pokemon that I've just evolved this turn?
I think that combo can work really well after all. I loved Leafeon UL, with more damage and catcher as ability it could be like instant kill on anything you want (except EX)
I love Gabite. Perfect for support and usable evolution too, plus Altaria that could make itself a game. Ability Hydreigon is a really good card, mixing it with previously Dark Rush cards.
Roserade can be useful if given the chance, but with catcher around I'm not pretty sure.
Devolution Spray is the "best" card on the set, according with what we have seen it can combo with many things (Gabite, Roserade, Ninetales, even Shiftry could make great use)
One question, can I devolve a pokemon that I've just evolved this turn?
Artemis said:
Unfortunately that is probably most likely the case. But honestly these multi energy attacks defeat the purpose of having a Dragon Type to begin with. Before we never had the type so Pokemon created these crazy energy costs to help signify that it was a Dragon.
I can personally live with the multi energy attacks, but one of those types NEED to be a Dragon Type energy, especially since some of these energy requirements are totally ridiculous (seriously, why in the world would Dragonite need a grass energy?). It seems like a total disservice to the Dragon Type to be the only Pokemon type in existence that doesn't have its own Energy (some whack Double Rainbow energy doesn't count in my book).
Just a reminder, people need to keep in mind that it's very possible that Devolution Spray is a reprint of the Base set version and not Hyper Devolution Spray from Neo Discovery. There's a world of difference. Ha ha. (I really hope it's like Hyper Devolution Spray, though.)
I would like to know this as well, since it was pointed out by DNA that you can't evolve a Pokemon you devolved on the same turn.
Alex Magicus said:
I would like to know this as well, since it was pointed out by DNA that you can't evolve a Pokemon you devolved on the same turn.
Broken Pokemon EX said:
You know that colorless energy doesn't have its own energy card right? So if that's the case, why should Dragon, or should I say, multicolor, have its own energy type?
In the games, Normal attacks have all the features as any of the other 16 elemental type. I wouldn't say the same for colorless, which is totally different functionally than the 8 other elemental types. Colorless energy can use any energy card to activate. The reason why there is NO dragon symbol for attack, because as I said in a different thread, Dragon types = multicolor cards in Magic the Gathering. In Magic, there isn't a "gold", nor is there "gold" mana, and to play those cards, you have to pay the cost, which typically includes 2 or more different colors of mana in it.
Another thing, the TCG doesn't have to fully mirror the video games. If they did that, then there would be an oversaturation of elemental types in the card game, and building a deck is impossible.
For example, you attach a fire energy to power up a colorless attack. Does that colorless attack, which are typically normal attacks, suddenly a fire attack? Another thing is this. Let's say you have a someone like Karrablast. It has an attack that cost {c}{c}. Now since it is a "normal" type attack, it doesn't make sense that it is strong against anything that is weak against grass types.
Also, the Dragon type explores the design space for multi energy cost attacks. If you can't grasp the concept of an attack that has {g}{l}{c}{c}, then I don't even know what to think. Paying for that kind of cost is no different than playing {l}{l}{c}{c}, except that you need to add some grass energy into your deck, and that lightning energy you could have drawn could have been a grass energy.
Magic players don't have any problems with multicolor cards. It seems Pokemon players have a huge problem with multi energy-type cost attacks.
If someone comes in saying why there isn't basic dragon energy, then I could reply "why isn't there basic colorless energy".
Then again, I think they are just trying to copy Magic, for example:
I seriously like how they designed it. They want it so dragons can't be killed by a Pidgey, and they can make multi-elemental type costed attacks have their own colored frame. In the TCG, there are 8, count it EIGHT elemental types. Colorless and now Dragon don't count.{c} and dragon aren't even part of it, much like "gold" and "brown/silver" aren't one of Magic's 5 colors.
Heck, they could make a "ghost" type, and have all their attacks use {p}{d}. Note that, if you want to paint your wall orange, it isn't the end of the world if orange paint isn't available, when there are tons of red and yellow paint. So keeping that in mind, maybe dragon type attacks isn't really dragon type attack, but dragon type attacks are actually every single type of attack all at once, if you know what I mean. Dragons are the de facto creature that controls everything, and it makes sense that they have multi energy attack, but due to gameplay reasons, they could only have it 2 at a time.
Even in the games, it makes sense. Dragons are so powerful that the only way to defeat them is to use an attack that infuses every single element all at once in one single attack, aka a dragon attack... or use ice. When Dragons use dragon attacks on steel, it's like saying, "hey, we'll throw a bunch of random stuff at this wall, and hope it crumbles". To destroy steel, it needs to melt, and therefore it needs concentrated heat, or fire, and not some random jumble of stuff.
The flavor of Normal types is that, they don't have an elemental type. They are not infused with any kind of element, which is why they stink against ghost types and vice versa.
Also in the games, there isn't really a pokemon that has more than 2 types at once, so if Dragons represent everything, then mind as well make a "Dragon" type, since you can't add 15 different types, excluding normal, since normal represents nothing.
signofzeta said:You know that colorless energy doesn't have its own energy card right? So if that's the case, why should Dragon, or should I say, multicolor, have its own energy type?
In the games, Normal attacks have all the features as any of the other 16 elemental type. I wouldn't say the same for colorless, which is totally different functionally than the 8 other elemental types. Colorless energy can use any energy card to activate. The reason why there is NO dragon symbol for attack, because as I said in a different thread, Dragon types = multicolor cards in Magic the Gathering. In Magic, there isn't a "gold", nor is there "gold" mana, and to play those cards, you have to pay the cost, which typically includes 2 or more different colors of mana in it.
Another thing, the TCG doesn't have to fully mirror the video games. If they did that, then there would be an oversaturation of elemental types in the card game, and building a deck is impossible.
Also, the Dragon type explores the design space for multi energy cost attacks. If you can't grasp the concept of an attack that has {g}{l}{c}{c}, then I don't even know what to think. Paying for that kind of cost is no different than playing {l}{l}{c}{c}, except that you need to add some grass energy into your deck, and that lightning energy you could have drawn could have been a grass energy.
Magic players don't have any problems with multicolor cards. It seems Pokemon players have a huge problem with multi energy-type cost attacks.
If someone comes in saying why there isn't basic dragon energy, then I could reply "why isn't there basic colorless energy".
Then again, I think they are just trying to copy Magic, for example:
I seriously like how they designed it. They want it so dragons can't be killed by a Pidgey, and they can make multi-elemental type costed attacks have their own colored frame. In the TCG, there are 8, count it EIGHT elemental types. Colorless and now Dragon don't count.{c} and dragon aren't even part of it, much like "gold" and "brown/silver" aren't one of Magic's 5 colors.
The flavor of Normal types is that, they don't have an elemental type. They are not infused with any kind of element, which is why they stink against ghost types and vice versa..
Your argument comparing Dragon Types to Colorless types really doesn't work though. You're essentially comparing apples to oranges. Colorless pokemon essentially don't have a typing which is why we can use any energy for them (and even still there are energies that provide Colorless energy), and in the games why almost any pokemon can learn those moves. Dragon pokemon have a clearly defined typing for them - Dragon.
And referring to what you said about Pokemon players having problems with multi energy attacks, I don't really agree with that especially since I was a huge Magic player several years ago. Me personally, I can stomach multi energy attacks, so long as they make sense. For example, previously all of Dragonite's multi energy attacks have required Water and Lightning which makes sense since Dragonite can learn both those types of moves. Just arbitrarily making up energy costs based on the colors of the pokemon is ridiculous. I don't see how anyone could defend that.
My point is we didn't need to create a new type to have pokemon to have multi energy attacks, we've had those for years. If we don't get a Dragon Energy (basic OR special), I don't see why Pokemon even bothered to make the Dragon Type at all since they are still just using the same multi energy attacks they were forced to make up since there was no Dragon Type for them to use.
And as far as this being a copy of what Magic has been doing, the "gold" color in Magic has no significance. There is no gold mana/land/type that was created for the game, there's no cards that have protection from gold, etc. That gold color doesn't affect gameplay in any way (unless stuff has changed since I last played Magic). Pokemon, however, actually created a Dragon Type. This typing has significance since pokemon are going to have weakness/resistance to it and will affect gameplay. It's not just a trivial gold background they are using to distinguish multi energy needing cards like in Magic (though that seems like what Pokemon is trying to make it -_-).
Broken Pokemon EX said:
How would you design it so that there are only 8 energy types, and that dragons don't get killed by pidgeys?
I am pretty sure the creators of the TCG created a new type just to separate those with multi energy attacks from everything else. I totally knew this from the beginning, because there is no way they are going to randomly add a basic dragon energy card.
In terms of basic energy, this game will forever have Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, Fighting, Darkness, and Metal. These are the only ones that will forever be in the game, and they won't ever add another basic energy.
The game doesn't need to be saturated by way too many types that does the same stuff. We don't need a 9th type that does exactly the same things as grass, fire, water, lightning, psychic, fighting, darkness, and metal.
Also, the reason why the energy costs are the same as the color of the pokemon itself is the same reason why poison types changed from {g} to {p}.
Hey guess what, out of all the poison types, which are all purple, only 3 aren't. Gulpin, Trubbish, and Garbodor. All of them are, as of Diamond and Pearl, Psychic types, in a purple card frame.
No gold mana in Magic is exactly like how there isn't basic dragon energy. Also Normal means regular, natural, such as regular flavor oatmeal is just plain oatmeal. Normal types are therefore plain pokemon, which means no elemental type, although "normal" is treated as an elemental type. Therefore, just like how in the video games, we call it electric, the TCG calls it lightning. Similarly, Normal in the video games, mean colorless in the TCG, so therefore, I could respond to why there isn't basic dragon energy with, why isn't there basic colorless energy. Afterall, colorless represents Normal and Flying pokemon.
Likewise, as normal pokemon isn't associated with a certain element, I could easily say dragon types are associated with all elements, where a dragon attack is basically all elements fired in one attack. Now you may say, oh dragon has pieces of fire attack, why won't it kill stuff like steel? Well, to destroy steel, you need a concentrated fire attack, just like how you want red light, in the RGB color model, you turn off the green and blue lights. While normal types are so plain that any energy type would work for their attacks, dragon types are picky, and require certain energy types. As for why the energy they need are the same color as their skin, um, read the part where I mentioned poison types in the TCG. Due to gameplay reasons, although dragon attacks are technically supposed to be every single element fired in one blast, they only chose 2 of them, because it is even more impossible to play a deck utilizing every single element. Also, they are resistant to Water, Fire, Grass and Electric in the games, and not everything, is for balance reasons. Having a pokemon resistant to everything destroys the balance in the game, so they took elements that are totally different, and completely unrelated to each other, to be ineffective against dragons, to represent that dragons are all elements at once.
The color of the frame is designed in such a way so that it takes into account weaknesses and resistances. They didn't design it with attacks in mind.
Another reason why dragons have multi energy attacks, so they can make attacks that would otherwise be broken if it used its own energy. Look at that card I posted above. The card would have been broken if it costed 10 mana of anything, as opposed to WWUUBBRRGG, which means you need to play a 5 color deck to effective use it, or use dual lands. With Dragons, they should flavorfully be powerful, but at the same time, be balanced, so it needs a multi type cost.
Remember that the TCG does not mirror the video games, and also seeing what we have so far, the Dragon symbol will never be anywhere on the card other than on the upper right, or near the bottom.
Before I continue further, give me any pokemon card that isn't a dragon type or from the sets from EX Delta Species to EX Dragon Frontiers, that has multi energy requirements. I can assure you that 100% of multi energy attack pokemon are all dragons... and delta pokemon.
Ah, all right then. I can't seem to get Pokémon Catcher...then again, this seems to be something you get from buying a box of booster packs, so that's going to be even more of a longshot for me to get than Pokémon Catcher.
I suppose there is no such thing as "the next best thing" when it comes to this, is there?
I suppose there is no such thing as "the next best thing" when it comes to this, is there?
^There's pokemon reversal from HGSS, but it's flippy.
And it sounds like you've had bad luck on the boosters, as I got 3 catchers from about 15 random EP boosters.
And it sounds like you've had bad luck on the boosters, as I got 3 catchers from about 15 random EP boosters.
signofzeta said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against what you're saying, just wanted to show this (regarding the quoted paragraph above):
Of course, the reason for these two having multi-energy it's because they're trio masters.
But there's also this:
http://pokebeach.com/scans/ex-team-magma-vs-team-aqua/15-team-aqua's-mightyena.jpg
http://pokebeach.com/scans/ex-team-magma-vs-team-aqua/21-team-magma's-mightyena.jpg
These obviously reflect their respective team, though...
So, yeah, regular pokémon don't use multi-energy attacks (for the most part)... But there's always these special cases showing that's not something exclusive to dragons.
@27th_wonder:
About that... Pokémon reversal was actually the way they found to nerf Gust of Wind... But then, they just brought Gust of Wind back again (aka Pokémon Catcher)...