(1) First BW5 'Dragon Blade / Dragon Blast' Cards Revealed! [2/2]

[Broken Pokemon EX]

In terms of basic energy, this game will forever have Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, Fighting, Darkness, and Metal. These are the only ones that will forever be in the game, and they won't ever add another basic energy.

Why are you so fixated on that there has to be only 8 energies? Why couldn't there be a 9th energy? What horrible thing would happen if they did decide to do a Dragon energy? The only Pokemon that are going to be weak to Dragon are other Dragon pokemon so it's not like it ruins the balance of the game or anything. And again, they went to the trouble of creating the Dragon Type, so why can't we have any attacks (with single OR multi energy attack costs) that require a Dragon energy?

Also, the reason why the energy costs are the same as the color of the pokemon itself is the same reason why poison types changed from {g} to {p}.

This is another thing I don't necessarily agree with Pokemon on (not nearly to the extent of the horrible method they use to assign Dragon attack requirements), but I can understand this move, especially since we would have a disproportionately large amount of grass pokemon if they would have remained lumped with the grass family.

I could respond to why there isn't basic dragon energy with, why isn't there basic colorless energy.

And I could respond with exactly what I responded with before. Even though there are no basic Colorless Energy, there are a TON of special energies that provide Colorless type energy. My problem is not that there is no basic Dragon Energy, my problem is that there is no energy, neither special NOR basic, that provides Dragon type energy at all, and as a result there are no attacks that will require a Dragon type energy.

Due to gameplay reasons, although dragon attacks are technically supposed to be every single element fired in one blast, they only chose 2 of them, because it is even more impossible to play a deck utilizing every single element.

Until Nintendo comes out and says Dragon types are supposed to be every type in one, I feel like that's a cop out way to justify having these obnoxious energy costs. A more realistic explanation for previous weird multi energy attacks was because there was no Dragon Type until now. They had to make them colorless and the only way to acknowledge their unofficial Dragon typing was by making these weird energy costs since no Dragon type or Dragon energy yet existed.

The color of the frame is designed in such a way so that it takes into account weaknesses and resistances. They didn't design it with attacks in mind.

Wasn't exactly sure what you were saying here. Are you saying that the Dragon Energy symbol wouldn't show up well against the color of the card? If that's the case I'd be happy to quickly photoshop something. And also have you seen every Dark pokemon since HGSS? They darkened the card template and energy symbols significantly and they blend together much worse than they did in pre HGSS/BW sets. So that's not really a valid argument.

Remember that the TCG does not mirror the video games...

With that logic I could easily say it's okay for formerly Colorless dragon pokemon in the TCG to be weak to Pidgies, Bidoofs, etc. but I know you definitely disagree with that, and examples like that are probably one of the reasons a Dragon type is finally being introduced to the TCG. The card game may not mirror the games, but they should be faithful.

Before I continue further, give me any pokemon card that isn't a dragon type or from the sets from EX Delta Species to EX Dragon Frontiers, that has multi energy requirements. I can assure you that 100% of multi energy attack pokemon are all dragons... and delta pokemon.

For these pokemon below their multi energy costs actually make sense. That's probably my biggest gripe with the Dragon pokemon's energy requirements. Ideally if multi energy requirements had to stay I think they should look something more like this: Dragonite's energy requirements could maybe be 1 Dragon/1 Water, or maybe for Latios 1 Dragon/1 Psychic. The energies needed for the attacks should represent their secondary typing (Latios' example) or at least an energy type of attack that they actually learn frequently (Dragonite's example).

 

[Skeleton Liar]

Uuuuhh.... While I'm not going to choose sides (because this is already getting silly), I'm just going to point some things out.

How would you design it so that there are only 8 energy types, and that dragons don't get killed by pidgeys?

...

Also, the reason why the energy costs are the same as the color of the pokemon itself is the same reason why poison types changed from {g} to {p}.

Hey guess what, out of all the poison types, which are all purple, only 3 aren't. Gulpin, Trubbish, and Garbodor. All of them are, as of Diamond and Pearl, Psychic types, in a purple card frame.

First off, who uses Pidgeys in the TCG, even if it's only there to evolve? And second, even if your point was that Normal/Flying Pokemon would be doing x2 damage to Dragons, they sort of fixed that in the BW sets. Look at any of the dragons from Noble Victories (or any of the Axew Promos). They don't have any Weakness (or Resistance). THAT'S how you design Dragon Pokemon WITHOUT making them their own type.

However, if you ask me, there are three possible reasons for why they decided to make the Dragon type for the TCG.
1. They didn't want any Pokemon to not have a Weakness (except Sableye and Spiritomb) for the TCG, and being weak to Normal Pokemon just seemed silly. Thus, Dragons could be their own type, be weak to their own type, and it wouldn't really affect any of the other cards out there.
2. 2012 is the year of the dragon, so this is a convenient time.
3. Because they can, and it looks cool. (Yeah, there's no thought put into that, but if you think about it, if you told a friend about the new Dragon type cards and they ask why they're making them, your answer would probably be "Because.")

...

...The reason for making Poison Pokemon psychic is completely different from Dragon Pokemon attack costs, if you ask me. It's probably a coincidence at a large amount of Poison Pokemon are purple. (And what about other Pokemon like Venusaur, Tentacruel, Spinarak, Qwilfish, Foongus, etc? Just because they have a second type means you can just overlook the fact that they're not Purple?) Rather than the color of the Pokemon being purple, it's more like all (or most; I can't say for sure) of the Poison attacks in the video games are purple. Toxic - purple. Sludge Bomb - purple. The effect for showing a Pokemon's poisoned - purple. Poison's color is purple. It has nothing to do with what color a Pokemon is. From D/P sets and on, they just decided to keep it the same as the video games. And if you say the TCG doesn't mirror the video games, I've got news for you: It does.

- Why else would Machamp, a Fighting type, be weak to Psychic... and Terrakion, also a Fighting type, be weak to Grass?
- Why else is Kyurem weak to Metal, Samurott weak weak to Lightning, and Feraligatr weak to Grass, despite all of them being Water types?
- Why else would Tornadus be a Colorless type and be weak to Lightning and resist Fighting when Colorless Pokemon are normally weak to Fighting?
- And why else would Sableye and Spiritomb have no weakness in the TCG when clearly Fighting is Dark's weakness?

Answer: THEY'RE GOING BY THE VIDEO GAMES' WEAKNESSES AND RESISTANCES. That's just ONE example of why the TCG and video games ARE related. I can think of at least 3 more. (Items from the video games being in the TCG, characters from the video games being in the TCG, and places from the video games being in the backgrounds of the pictures of Pokemon in the TCG--heck, there's even that Twist Mountain Stadium card that's based on the place in the video games.)

This is to anyone: As for Dragon's attack costs, if they HAVE to have two different energies for their attacks, how else would you choose what types to use other than by their color? Randomly select them out of a hat? Here's how that would go: "Alright. Dragonite and its evolutions are... Dark! And... Lightning! Next, Kingdra is... Grass! And... Fire!" That would make FAR less sense than what they are right now.

@Broken Pokemon EX Is it really the end of the world that they aren't making Dragon Energy attack costs? Is it really that hard to have a multi-energy deck, especially when Rainbow Energy exsists? Do we NEED Dragon energies at all? It's like, yeah, we didn't even NEED the Dragon type in the first place, but they're making it anyway. They probably just wanted to make the Dragon type "because", and also have it not really change the game at all. Quite honestly, you can look at it from either perspective: Would adding Dragon energies change the game? Not really. Do the Dragons absolutely need Dragon energy costs? Not really. Did we need Dragon types in the first place? Concidering they fixed the x2 weakness to Normal types in the BW sets, not really. It really comes down to getting worked up over something trivial. Multiple types of energies in a deck isn't too hard to handle. (Unless it's like 3+. But again, Rainbow Energy.)

Before I continue further, give me any pokemon card that isn't a dragon type or from the sets from EX Delta Species to EX Dragon Frontiers, that has multi energy requirements. I can assure you that 100% of multi energy attack pokemon are all dragons... and delta pokemon.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove with this. =\ But on top the Lugia EX, Regigigas holo and Lv.X, and Metagross, there's...

- All of the Shining Pokemon from Neo Destiny
- All of the Crystal Pokemon from Aquapolis and Skyridge
- Lugia from Neo Genesis
- Celebi Prime from Triumphant
- Dark Celebi from EX Hidden Legends
- Jirachi from EX Hidden Legends
- Lugia Legend from HGSS--heck! Don't ALL of the Legends require different types of energy other than Ho-oh? And if you're talking about just for a single attack, then just Rayquaza & Deoxys Legend counts.
- If 2 different attacks count, Houndoom from Neo Discovery, Exeggcute from Neo Destiny and Celebi from Triumphant. And technically, Dark Houndoom from Neo Destiny would count because even though one attack costs a Fire and a Colorless, is says "If there are any Dark Energy cards attached to Dark Houndoom..." meaning a Dark Energy would have to be used in order to get the bonus effect of the attack.
- Possibly more...

And now I have no clue what was just proven. =\ (Other than the fact that there ARE other non-Dragon and non-Delta Species multi-energy cards.)

Also, why are you comparing Pokemon to Magic? If you're trying to say Pokemon is copying Magic... do they even have Magic in Japan? (I honestly don't know.) I dunno. Just seems silly in any case.

Great... Now I've joined this silly dispute. >:|

 

[Metalizard]

Right, regarding the weakness subject... That argument that Dragons couldn't be weak to Pidgeys is just silly. Just 1 example: Fire pokémon are weak to water. But Water in the TCG contains both the VG Water-type and the Ice-type. As such, a fire pokémon is weak to Cryogonal (for example), when in the VG it's actually the other way around... So, basically, there wasn't really a problem at all that Dragons were previously weak to Colorless, it actually made sense, since Dragons were being represented by the Colorless-type. Removing the Colorless weakness in BW sets was actually some kind of regression, but my guess is that they did it because they were already planning on introducing the Dragon-type to the TCG...

btw, one more thing: It seems that since the 1st BW set, they have been screwing up weaknesses and resistance. Pokémon that are part Flying in the games don't have the Fighting resistance anymore, and flying Electric-types (or ones with Levitate - read as Eelektross) still have Fighting weakness... So, they don't follow the games as accurately as they should...

 

[Broken Pokemon EX]

@Broken Pokemon EX Is it really the end of the world that they aren't making Dragon Energy attack costs? Is it really that hard to have a multi-energy deck, especially when Rainbow Energy exsists?

Like I said in a couple of the earlier posts, it's not so much the fact that they are still using multi energy attacks, just that a couple of them make no utter sense. Again I'll go back to Dragonite. There's no reason he should have a grass energy in his attack. If they aren't going to make a Dragon energy for the attack costs, the energies they pick should make some sense at the very least ya know?

btw, one more thing: It seems that since the 1st BW set, they have been screwing up weaknesses and resistance. Pokémon that are part Flying in the games don't have the Fighting resistance anymore, and flying Electric-types (or ones with Levitate - read as Eelektross) still have Fighting weakness... So, they don't follow the games as accurately as they should...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was thinking that too. Another one is the removal of Steel resistance on Electric pokemon. And don't even get me started on Zapdos from ND being weak to Electric. Sort of a step backward, especially in comparison to how accurately they chose the weaknesses/resistances in the DP era.

 

[signofzeta]

Just to add something off the wall here. Each of the 8 types can be paired up into opposites.

Fire vs Water

Lightning vs Darkness

Psychic vs Fighting

Grass vs Metal

Then we can add Colorless vs Dragon. One represents none, the other represents all. Or should I say, one is the least picky, the other is the most picky.

They could have called "Dragon" multicolor, and it just so happens, all the dragon types are multicolor, but they called it Dragon. So let's just go with the flow.

Also, it doesn't matter if the attack colors of poison types are purple, that isn't the point. The original argument was that the energy requirements don't make sense for some dragons, which I respond with the whole poison thing being psychic. I guess you are correct. I am using my psychic powers to poison your mind.

 

[Trainerhan1]

Why is Lightning vs Darkness and Grass vs Metal?

 

[signofzeta]

Why is Lightning vs Darkness and Grass vs Metal?

LIGHTning vs DARKness. OK.

Grass vs Metal, um, I'll leave you to figure this one out.

 

[Skeleton Liar]

@Metalizard Yeah, actually it would've been correct keeping Colorless dragons weak to Colorless Pokemon. All I was trying to say, in reply to signofzeta asking how to fix dragons being weak to Pidgeys (which is still a silly arguement), was that they sort of did fix that in BW sets. However, now they made the Dragon type and that doesn't matter anymore. lol

Like I said in a couple of the earlier posts, it's not so much the fact that they are still using multi energy attacks, just that a couple of them make no utter sense. Again I'll go back to Dragonite. There's no reason he should have a grass energy in his attack. If they aren't going to make a Dragon energy for the attack costs, the energies they pick should make some sense at the very least ya know?

Ah. Well, okay. The only thing I can say for Dragonite requiring Grass is... Since the colors of the Pokemon are what they're basing the attack costs on, there really isn't too much to choose from for Dragonite. =\ It's got an orange-ish yellow-ish body, a lighter shade of that on its under side, and dark green wings. So... based on that, the types to choose from are possibly Lightning, Fighting, or Grass. I will agree, though. When I first saw that Dragonite required Grass, I was like, "Wait, what?" But again, if the colors of the Pokemon are what they're basing the energies off of, I guess it sort of makes sense.

Also, it doesn't matter if the attack colors of poison types are purple, that isn't the point. The original argument was that the energy requirements don't make sense for some dragons, which I respond with the whole poison thing being psychic. I guess you are correct. I am using my psychic powers to poison your mind.

...But MY point is that changing Poison from Grass to Psychic is completely different from what the attack costs for Dragon types are based on. And you said they are the exact same reason. You've been proven wrong with the TCG being unrelated to the video games AND saying that there aren't any non-Dragon and non-Delta Species Pokemon with multi-energy attacks; you can be wrong again.

 

[Metalizard]

LIGHTning vs DARKness. OK.

Grass vs Metal, um, I'll leave you to figure this one out.

Lol, Lightning has no relation to Darkness here. Lightning is just a different TCG name for Electric. If anything, It's more like Lightning vs Grass and Darkness vs Metal than the way you said it...

 

[signofzeta]

Lol, Lightning has no relation to Darkness here. Lightning is just a different TCG name for Electric. If anything, It's more like Lightning vs Grass and Darkness vs Metal than the way you said it...

Lightning, produces a lot of light. Duh, and a lot of sound. And how does your lights in your home run by? What do you call when there is a complete power outage? BLACKout? And what is associated with the color black? Usually darkness and night?

So you may wonder why grass vs metal. I'll give you 2 more. Nature vs industrialization. Organic vs inorganic. Animate vs inanimate.

 

[Ophie]

Lightning does not necessarily have to produce light, and light is rarely caused by electricity. Light happens when an electron goes from an excited state to a lower energy state while interacting with a nucleus. Electricity is electrons freely moving about. The only thing electricity and light both have in common is that they're energy that comes from electrons. That's why you can see a charged electric wire and it'll look EXACTLY the same as a non-charged wire. On the flip side, what's the biggest source of light on Earth? The Sun. What is the source of the Sun's light? Not electricity, but nuclear fusion.

In the video games, Flash, Moonlight, Morning Sun, and Heal Pulse are Normal-type moves. Light Screen and Mirror Coat are Psychic-type moves. Sunny Day and Will-O-Wisp are Fire-type moves. Flash Cannon is a Steel-type move. Confuse Ray is a Ghost-type move. Dragon Pulse is a Dragon-type move. Signal Beam is a Bug-type move. All of these involve bright shining light in one way or another, but none of them are Electric-type.

In addition, what we know as the Dark-type, the Japanese know as the Evil-type. That is, "Dark" here does not refer to a lack of light, but of backstabbing and dirty tricks, which is why moves like Bite, Sucker Punch, Thief, and Pursuit are classified as Dark-type. In fact, moves that deal with the absence of light are normally classified under the Ghost-type, such as Night Shade and Shadow Sneak.

 

[Alex Magicus]

Wow, a lot of discuss about types.
I think that this is a cool way to make Dragon Pokemon have their own colour, but think a bit about it. The more types of energy the game gets, the more difficult its to mix them all. If you take a look at other games, they dont usually have more than 5 or 6 kinds of non-colorless mana, so Pokemon are the exception of the rule.
I'm really happy about Dragon just as they have done it. They are more like cards to put into some decks than to mix them all in one Dragon deck. And I am pretty sure we get some energy to support them, you will see.
Ah, about Dark and Light, it is totally an English issue. For example, in Spanish Dark type is "Siniestro", which translates for sinister, more accurate than Dark for the original Japanese meaning (but I think they thought Dark sounded better for Pokemon)

 

[EeveeLv99]

With all this type conversation going on, why is it that Lugia since HGSS has been Water type? It's Psychic/Flying in the games. Didn't anyone know that? It might be found it a watery environment, and learn water moves, and live on the bottom of the ocean, but it's still Psychic. My point? The TCG only follows the VG loosely. If the TCG can change something because it's 'better' or 'makes more sense to them', then they change it. It'll make sense to us eventually (or maybe not), but these people have been making cards since '98, so I think I'll trust them just a little.

...Although they did make a bit of a blunder by re-releasing Gust of Wind IMO...

 

[Kaiser Dynamo]

With all this type conversation going on, why is it that Lugia since HGSS has been Water type? It's Psychic/Flying in the games. Didn't anyone know that? It might be found it a watery environment, and learn water moves, and live on the bottom of the ocean, but it's still Psychic. My point? The TCG only follows the VG loosely. If the TCG can change something because it's 'better' or 'makes more sense to them', then they change it. It'll make sense to us eventually (or maybe not), but these people have been making cards since '98, so I think I'll trust them just a little.

...Although they did make a bit of a blunder by re-releasing Gust of Wind IMO...

Finally! Someone else who notices how stupid {W}-Type Lugia is. If your gonna make Lugia live in {W} and be {W} in the TCG, it might as well be flying and {W} type altogether!