Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[Celever]

bb's annoying tab formatting messed with the quote tags like it normally does. Look out for the [/quote]. Prize to whoever finds it.

 

[Celever]

First thing's first bb: why were posts #511 and #512 posted in the wrong order?

Not quoting Keeper's ridicule cos long but since when was ridicule something worthy of a FoS?

Technically. But tunneling is the weakest scumtell out there so it's not worth putting stock into. Why is quaking's tunnel worthy of a FoS but not the other tunnels/sheeping which you said are only borderline FoS?

I think you and NP need refreshers on what tunneling is. I mean the act of linking to a singular post and saying "this is a tunnel" is literally inherently flawed, because tunneling is only identifiable via a pattern of several posts. And either way is a false accusation and is in the same string of posts as where bb says I "attacked everyone" which is mutually exclusive with tunneling, so which is it? :L

And honestly I don't even know what you mean by absolutes so I'm skipping that rather than assuming what you mean and letting you rethink.

Sheeping / Bandwagoning is absolutely OK on the first few phases and is still one of the weakest scumtells in the later ones. There wasn't enough material for everyone backing the vote to have different reasoning for doing so and that's OK. Why do you think that's scummy?

@bbninjas don't reply to all the posts showing how fake your FoSes were sure but respond to these specific questions. They're important.

 

[Jabberwock]

So far I haven’t voted. The players I consider at the moment:

GM Draclord - I need more time to see how he play, as I said, but it’s a good choice if I end up with no alternatives.
Ninja Penguin - If he keeps avoiding Jabber’s question about Mariano, but that is unlikely to happen.
Jplap- in case he will post but without answering my question.

All the others are still not clear, but I do need to reread more posts.

It's sliiiiiightly weird that you told me earlier to place a pressure vote, and haven't done so yourself. Curious to see what you find on your reread.

I'm suddenly really busy and tired and not at home like ever so what I'm posting is quite literally me using up about a half of my true free time. That being said, tomorrow is the weekend so I'll catch up then and wallpost and stuff and answer this question you've mentioned.

I'll give you a bit of motivation.^.^

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: NINJAPENGUIN

Hmm... probably something similar to what Keeper did, a claim that's actually believable and enough info to support it. Definitely not just a "gimme info, plz"; at least some logical reasoning as to why that info being shared is for our best interest.

Alright this definitely does not answer my question but at this point I can't even remember what I was trying to gain by asking it in the first place, so Imma leave it. >.>

This post is a response to the case on Drac, and I implore everyone to read it:
...
The new players who have supported this case are fine. They don't know Drac's play that well. The more experienced players, if there are any (I haven't studied the more recent parts of the thread too extensively yet) will be cast into a suspicious light by doing so, however. This is not a hard case to see the many holes in if you've played with Drac before.

A lot of bb's points on Drac are flimsy, I agree –– and Drac definitely ain't the best lynch rn –– but him being noncommittal is more than a (false or otherwise) read of Drac's scummeta; it's actually very telling that Drac cannot come up with a single player who looks even slightly scummy. This post is a good one to look at if you haven't already seen it.

 

[Celever]

What Luis is suggesting, and what I agree with, is that the town set Roz up to be lynched, and did not execute the push fairly.

The town can't set someone up to be lynched. They don't have a private chat with which to orchestrate a play like that, and a set up requires, well, setup. Find the setup, and I'll accept your set up theory. Without it it's impossible.

I don't see why the town is so focused on Keeper's bomb claim right now? Whether or not Keeper's telling the truth has grand implications for the mafians (NOT the town), and so it is the mafian's problem.

I actually agree with you on this point. The damage has already been done, but still, brownie points.

My initial reaction to responses to my Day 1 comments; Keeper, while firm in his justification of the Roz lynch, still seemed to acknowledge a few areas where evidence wasn't significant enough (a good sign that he's thinking things through). Celever, on the other hand, actively defended against virtually every single point that I made -- even if that point did not relate to him (a sign that he's not playing progressively).

If you're gonna make a claim that I'm not being progressive you need to back it up. Basic essay technique: point, evidence, explain. You gave the point and the evidence, but forgot to explain it. It's the equivalent of me saying that because Mario is the best-selling video game series of all time, the largest demographic of gamers are those who have crushes on red-clad Italian plumbers, and just leaving it at that. It could be true, given the evidence, but also could not be.

Why do you think Celever is scumhunting with progression? I agree that scattered is, but I can't equate how scattered and Celever are playing.

Please tell me how instigating all 3 major Day 1 lynches was not scumhunting with progression. Nothing else, no diversion. The overall end-product of my play on Day 1 was we had 2 solid lynch targets and 1 lynch target who some people thought was solid too. So why and how was that not scumhunting with progression?

Celever did also respond to most of my points as if I was using those points to get someone lynched (i.e. "this is weak", "why is this that indicative?" etc). Those points were initial suspicions, NOT solid scumtells. They are mini flags that put people on my radar -- however, if I was to see any of those points as solid evidence to lynch someone over, I will absolutely respond to the relevant aspect of Celever's posts. (I am also conscious of invoking any back-and-forths like in the past, since they are never beneficial.)

No. Nu-uh. Not accurate. Suspicion should only be aroused in this game by a scum-minded, scummy, or scumtell reminiscent play. All 3 of those can contribute to getting someone lynched. If your FoSes are nota, why did you post them? Because if you're not saying they indicate scummy behaviour, they're fluff. And if you are saying they indicate scummy behaviour, they're worth retorting.

The below is also important to read:

There is no difference between you using a FoS in a case and outside of one. The content doesn't change, only the context, and the context is the only difference between a FoS, which isn't used to try and get someone lynched, and a case, which is. So I responded to them like they're FoSes, and you don't get to backpedal away from all of your fake, wrong, shoddy and incorrect claims and attempts at pushing a specific almost clique of players as soon as you subbed into the game like you did. This is largely why in my original post I asked you this question, which in this post you casually dodged:

Technically. But tunneling is the weakest scumtell out there so it's not worth putting stock into. Why is quaking's tunnel worthy of a FoS but not the other tunnels/sheeping which you said are only borderline FoS?

Because the players you focused on with your FoSes were the following:

Celever, Nick, Keeper, quaking, scattered, and Mariano.

Now, some of you may recognise that list. From where, you ask? The final votecount of Day 1:

roz - 6 quaking (82) Celever (323) Nick (329), Mariano (340), Zone (342), quaking (354), Keeper (363) scattered mind (376) scattered mind (444) L-2

Apparently over the entire course of Day 1, the only players on which he saw not even genuine scumtells but rather only "flags of initial suspicion" were coincidentally the only players who supported the roz lynch. The only outlier being Zone, which I believe can be explained at least in part because bb has had a historical deference from targeting newer players early on in mafia games for the sake of community.

Tell me it's not bb's exact scum meta to use a town's misplay opportunistically against them in an attempt to snowball things. He does it every single time he's mafia circumstances allowing, and his original posts from his subbing into the thread, presented in the holier than thou tone bb tends to don when he's pushing an agenda in a mafia game, are a textbook example of him using equivocation to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

And because of this play:
##UNVOTE: professor_jplap
##VOTE: bbninjas

I'm confident with this. It was a decent gambit, but you've tried the same strategy so many times that it's become predictable. And honestly I only noticed because of the poor execution of a lot of the FoSes.

 

[Keeper of Night]

That's a selfish way of thinking. You say that claiming it early on helps to keep you alive, which is true in case you are town, but scum will kill other townies instead of you. What makes you think that the nightkilled townie has not a better ability than yours? In that case, town can lose a more valuable ability than yours. If you think the town as a team, you'll realise that it's far better if scum attacks you.

Because as Luis already pointed out, the only "confirmed" town, to me, is myself. While I play the odds and realize most players will be town anyway, that gives me no reason to believe that any other person, at the moment, would have a better ability than my own, which I can confirm to myself does give answers, helpful or not as they may be.

Again, your explode ability (in case is true) must be used on a scum member. How? Getting nightkilled! That way you help the town. Or aren't you interested in helping the town?

I'm getting the feeling you just aren't understanding. Let me try that again:

I am more helpful alive because I can read abilities. I am less helpful dead because I am dead.
I am better for scum to keep alive because they don't risk losing a member by killing me and they get the same info from me town does because I have to state it publicly. (If I were scum I could just give all my ability reads in the scum chat and never have to claim anything here in the first place.)
I am worse for scum to kill because they risk me telling the truth and then lose one of their members.

No. It is important because that way a scum Keeper sets up the field to not getting lynched and acts as an excuse of being alive long in the game with the tell "scum don't kill me because they know the consequences".

I'm sorry, but I can't think of that action coming from a person who wants the town to win the game.
##VOTE: Keeper of Night

...Your case is that because I'm not using the bomb effectively, that means I'm not town. But you completely ignore the rest of my claim? So, your idea of what I should do is... What? Try to get myself killed by scum asap so I explode on them? Sorry, I'm here to play a game. And that game means that I use the rest of my role, which is to see abilities. You might have missed that I do that since you're so caught up in whether I explode or not, which, as already stated, has no effect towards town (unless I'm lynched, then I do still explode, mind).

1. Yeah, of course, it's al a bluff/mind game stuff, but my point is that, if or when you're in the spotlight for whatever reason then we'd actually give it some thought and it'll get trickier the later in the game we go. Since we don't know the specifics of the bomb (if there's one) and you'd definitely not share it, we might as well think that it's not necessarily an anti-scum bomb, but it can kill anyone in your bus, since we'd be discussing your role as town or mafia. See my point? It's not something to lynch you for and definitely I'm not building a case around it, it's just that a bomb claim is just too gutsy and too risky for everyone to play with or play around, and not only to scum but to town as well. It's all a huge mess of mental games mumbo jumbo.
2. Jeeez, is it that bad? Then we'd need to be extra careful with our lynches. If we're going to get punished WHILE losing a townsman then we better try to avoid it.

No, it's not just an anti-scum bomb. It, like every other Farewell ability (that I know, anyway), activates upon any death. Including lynching. But while it's worth noting, it's nothing that's indicative of alignment (as I said already with NP and as we discussed earlier in Day 1).
And yeah, they are that bad. We got lucky with Roz yesterday.

This, though, is a really good point... If I was Keeper I might as well claim something stupidly attractive for the scum and let them kill me.

If I was only a bomb, oh yeah of course I would have. But I'm not. I do actually serve a function, and there's no reason to waste that. Whatever info we can work with is only a plus.

 

[Jabberwock]

Oh I should also respond to the case on Keeper bc I realize I haven't really commented on it yet.

Honestly I don't have anything in the way of evidence to support this, but I've had a gut read of Keeper not being scum since the beginning of D1 bc he's actively trying to figure out the setup in-thread, versus in a scumchat. If he has an ability that sees Farewell Ability effects (almost typed Spacetime Warps lol @bbninjas), that's a thing scum would wanna keep to themselves. The fact that he told us all about it indicates to me that he's not scum.

Could he be the indie? Yeah, it's totally possible. He was the indie in Pirates, where he spent most of the game trying to figure out what the special mechanic in that game did and how it worked. But I'm not ready to lynch him today.

 

[Celever]

Oh I should also respond to the case on Keeper bc I realize I haven't really commented on it yet.

Honestly I don't have anything in the way of evidence to support this, but I've had a gut read of Keeper not being scum since the beginning of D1 bc he's actively trying to figure out the setup in-thread, versus in a scumchat. If he has an ability that sees Farewell Ability effects (almost typed Spacetime Warps lol @bbninjas), that's a thing scum would wanna keep to themselves. The fact that he told us all about it indicates to me that he's not scum.

Could he be the indie? Yeah, it's totally possible. He was the indie in Pirates, where he spent most of the game trying to figure out what the special mechanic in that game did and how it worked. But I'm not ready to lynch him today.

Lol curious you post that because after his most recent post I was thinking he could well be indie and was questioning whether it was worth posting something similar. BUT jplap has actually confirmed the indie is harmless, so even if he is the indie, we can keep him around. The only concern we have is if he's mafia and sure this is echoing you but I also think he's town. (fwiw I believe I said this in-thread toward the end of Day 1 too :U)

But yeah the Keeper case is eh at best. bb is better case everyone hop on that one kkthx

 

[Keeper of Night]

Celever makes a strong case. Waiting to hear BB's response.

He was the indie in Pirates, where he spent most of the game trying to figure out what the special mechanic in that game did and how it worked.

I love how creative everyone is in these games with their own mechanics. Trying to figure them out is fun.

 

[GM DracLord]

RE: The GM Drac wagon.



-- GM Drac was able to determine who shouldn't be lynched in his eyes - even though similar skills can be used to determine who at least is slightly suspicious. I don't see Drac's low activity, or claimed lack of skill, as valid justification for not scumhunting.
-- I don't think people understand the significance of the lack-of-commitment tell. If you do not commit to a lynch, then the town has minimal information on you, based on that lynch's flip. Scum can't get dirt on you if you don't commit. This is how Drac classically floats to the late game as mafian - and I picked up on it a few times while playing as scum with him. It's both a scumtell AND a metaread - not just a metaread.

@GM DracLord; you had a list of people who shouldn't be lynched Day 1, but somewhere in Day 2 you said that you read everyone pretty neutrally. What changed?

The thing that change is my access to this site. . So here is my comment on player (some bit)

1. Keeper of Night - I'm relearning how he works. So you are in my "I can't trust list"
2. scattered mind - I'm not totally convince of his alignment but previous game when I played against him (when i was mafia), I can follow up with his methods abit
3. NinjaPenguin - Will Comment Later
5. Camoclone - Good to play with you again
6. bbninjas - You know I'm an easy target based on those point (which can be valid for each game I played). So you are in my "I can't trust list"
7. Mariano11887 - I did say Mariano never been a person that I can differentiated . So you are in my "I can't trust list"
8. Luispipe8 - Will Comment Later
9. Jabberwock - Will Comment Later
11. Celever - At this point if Cel is Mafia, he don't really need to defend me that much as most players know how to really push my lynch
12. Professor_jplap - Pretty much like the past game where he kinda vanish by day 2. His activity might be worth keeping for now.
13. Zone Q - Never played with him before. Since he is active thats something for me to learn about him. So you are in my "I can't trust list"

but for now, since having him around make no different for me
##VOTE: Mariano

 

[bbninjas]

First thing's first bb: why were posts #511 and #512 posted in the wrong order?

I was going to put all my general one-liners in one post, my general comments on the wagons in another, and my vote in the final. -- I just messed up when I started writing my one-liners... but it turns out I didn't have many anyway. >.>

Not quoting Keeper's ridicule cos long but since when was ridicule something worthy of a FoS?

If you are to ridicule someone, you stop taking them seriously - that includes any defense that they might take. Basically, Keeper parked his vote and was not going to budge (which I think he admitted at some point anyway), a tunnel basically, which is not pro-town and therefore suspicious.

Technically. But tunneling is the weakest scumtell out there so it's not worth putting stock into. Why is quaking's tunnel worthy of a FoS but not the other tunnels/sheeping which you said are only borderline FoS?

Good question! But first; I actually said that quaking sheeped (the difference being; a tunnel is intrinsically a flawed scumhunt, but I didn't see quaking scumhunt much - he more-or-less just agreed with what others said). I'll use a different example: I considered Keeper's tunnel as more significant because he would disregard claims / Roz saying "I'm town" / alternate explanations without much though. Contrast that with scattered, who would ask the questions and would evaluate the alternate explanations; he didn't plant himself on a single road.

I think you and NP need refreshers on what tunneling is. I mean the act of linking to a singular post and saying this is a tunnel is literally inherently flawed, because tunneling is only identifiable via a pattern of several posts. And either way is a false accusation and is in the same string of posts as where bb says I attacked everyone which is mutually exclusive with tunneling, so which is it? :L

If I had all the time in the world, I'd gladly do a full IOS on you to show how you've been tunneling. Unfortunately, I don't have all that time - and have to look at the mindset that you're posting from, and based on evident exaggerations (you said that Roz explicitly claimed being indie) // narrowness (not considering alternative situations) // lack of patience for anyone not on your wagon // confirmation bias // asking Roz to say he's town (what's the point?) and then not being satisfied with that when he does (okay??)... that all indicates a pretty clear tunnel mindset to me.

If you are tunneling a lynch, your push is one-sided. You can pick fights with everyone or noone - it doesn't matter - as long as your discussion relating to the wagon is one-sided, you are tunneling.

And honestly I don't even know what you mean by absolutes so I'm skipping that rather than assuming what you mean and letting you rethink.

An absolute is presenting an interpretation / read / wagon etc as the only possible explanation or course of action. For one, we see this in how you begin Day 2, presenting Jplap as the [only] wagon that everyone needs to be looking into.

Sheeping / Bandwagoning is absolutely OK on the first few phases and is still one of the weakest scumtells in the later ones. There wasn't enough material for everyone backing the vote to have different reasoning for doing so and that's OK. Why do you think that's scummy?

A person who follows what the majority does without evidence of that person thinking critically about what they are doing is dangerous at the very least, scummy (i.e. scum trying to blend in) at the very most.

 

[bbninjas]

You heard it here first. Not wanting to lynch someone is buddying. And this is a very misleadingly worded bullet point because you heavily, heavily imply that I was the only person Drac didn't want to lynch for experience. But no -- he put Keeper on that list too, and while yes, NP, Jabs and scattered are all experienced players, they're at least a year and a half, 2 years younger than me Drac and Keeper on this site, who were the 3 oldest and most experienced players at the time. Do I think experience is a good reason not to lynch someone? No. Was it Day 1? Yes. Does Drac ever play much on Day 1? No. Is it therefore characteristic of his several years of play on this site to have made a post in that vein, regardless of alignment? Yes, absolutely. I don't think there's any way you don't know that because you must have played in dozens of Day 1s with Drac, and this happens nearly every time. Just usually no one picks him up on, because it happens nearly every time. He's not an RVS player. That's fine.

Responding to the bold; The fact that you've made this contrived point in this misleading fashion is very scummy. Like, by far the scummiest thing you've done this game and, arguably, that anyone's done besides Eevee. This is steering the town off a bridge by what I could only assume is talking in absolutes (which is a scumtell according to you but I'm still not sure what you meant and you didn't clarify it).

An inconsistency by Drac that favours Celever is indicative of a bias towards Celever, which can be explained by a) scumbuddying (simplest explanation if Drac is scum) b) Drac and Cel being masons (which would be explained on flip) c) Drac entered the game biased in Celever's favour (alternate explanation if Drac is town). Therefore, if Drac flips scum, then this inconsistency would suggest that Celever is linked to him. Ironically, the first two sentences is the only part directly relevant to the Drac lynch - the rest is nothing more than "hokey pokey to flesh your response out", which you criticise me for in this very post.

I am not misleading -- I am correct - you were the only person that Drac did not want to lynch for experience (fact check this here). Drac did not want to lynch Keeper for nostalgia, i.e. Drac wanted to actually play a game with Keeper. Thus; Drac considered "experience" a good enough reason not to lynch someone Day 1. However, Celever was the only person considered to be "experienced", even though scattered and NP (among others) are plenty experienced themselves. This is inconsistent.

Finally, why you've attempted this case at all concerns me. At the end of the day the only thing you've said that you're saying could indicate he's scum -- the first quote bubble in this post -- is solely a meta-read, which we all know is weak. And not only that, but it's an incorrect meta-read, because you're stating that something that is pretty intrinsic to his playstyle is somehow something he only does as mafia. That's flagrantly untrue. To flesh out this hokey case, you added a note, which I know is one of your strategies where you flesh out your posts with information to make the content of it seem more professional and appealing, while having a disclaimer present so that if anyone says that's not scummy tho you can say I didn't say it was (and how I know that is you've already done it this game with your FoS, adapting the definition of FoS to suit your needs away from the traditional definition). So the note of the buddying with me, which was also presented by you misleadingly and beyond that is not uncharacteristic of Drac anyway, is not something you're trying to say is scummy, despite including it in the same post as your case, right? Not that it would matter if it was because it's also untrue at best, but you accept that that doesn't indicate Drac's mafia? Cos if anything that's a read on me using the assumption that Drac is mafia, derived from a hokey metaread which has an untrue foundation.

This entire post implies that a wagon must have a case of significant length and detail for it to be valid (otherwise, why are you focusing so much on me "fleshing out the case"?), and that notion is ridiculous. Good cases should be simple.

You should know very well that players normally suggest a potential buddy/buddies to provide a direction in future days if the lynch happens, and if the flip is mafian. Why is a problematic for me to think ahead (and specifically me, since you have no problem with others thinking ahead)?

 

[Scattered mind]

Points I have gathered from rereading D1 so far:


Page 18- Zone and Celever agree NP is scummy for tone reading, which they refer to as gut-reading. @Zone Q11 - Why didn't you bring this up or pursue this point? Do you think it is too weak or just didn't bother? You have later stated he is odd in his behaviour and that this might be because he didn't claim. That's kinda fishy again, with all your subtle role fishing acts, including the time you wondered about the existence of two doctors.


Page 20 and beyond-

Overall, NP seems to be consistant with his intentions to get info from the Jplap lynch. Celever seems to heavily view NP as scummy, yet it does not reflect at all today, and instead he is voting bbninjas (which I still need to review). NP's gut reads is the best point in my opinion at the moment. But because it happened during D1, I think I need to see more of his play D2 to review his actions, and his explanation for his play.

----

It's sliiiiiightly weird that you told me earlier to place a pressure vote, and haven't done so yourself. Curious to see what you find on your reread.

There was a long time with no response from NP, and you said it was pointless to ask again, so I said I would just pressure vote. In my case, it was still fresh, but if NP didn't comment shortly after, I would have put a vote. NP checked in and said he's busy atm, so I see no issue in giving some extra time. Otherwise, if I placed a vote after recently talking about pressure voting, my vote might be seen as a pressure vote, and even if it is, I think a pressure vote misses its point if it's known as a pressure vote. So I figured the fact I put him on a list of who I consider looking into/lynch today would be more effective.

---

I think I am going to move on and go over D2 posts in more depth.

 

[GM DracLord]

I am not misleading -- I am correct - you were the only person that Drac did not want to lynch for experience (fact check this here). Drac did not want to lynch Keeper for nostalgia, i.e. Drac wanted to actually play a game with Keeper. Thus; Drac considered "experience" a good enough reason not to lynch someone Day 1. However, Celever was the only person considered to be "experienced", even though scattered and NP (among others) are plenty experienced themselves. This is inconsistent.

Earlier when you stated this I did say SM should have also been with Cel..
Reason, I played as Scum againts them recently, and from my view, they are much more valuable to be kept in my point of view compare to others.
If I were scum I choose to eliminate them as early as possible.

 

[bbninjas]

What actually is your case on me, @Celever? It's not clear at all. You made comments on my recent post, stating that I am incorrect / hunting poorly / need to explain myself (or something to that effect) -- okay, cool, you completely disagree with me; does that make me scummy? Then you noticed -- and I assume that this is the central point -- that by coincidence, I FoS'd basically everyone who voted for Roz. However, you don't believe that this is coincidental (why not coincidence?), and instead you believe that I am being opportunistic by manipulating hindsight in attempt to... well, you don't say, but presumably something like trying to throw false suspicion around. (Then, why have I not actually pushed to lynch any of these people? Where is the evidence of intentional / malicious follow-up behaviour?) And then you justify this by saying "it's bb's exact scum meta", even though meta-reads are weak and dismissable and insubstantial (hence you criticised me for using them), and even though you didn't justify this with evidence (again, for this you criticised me). Are meta-reads weak, or completely valid? You can't have both!

Then you sum up the case in an incredibly verbose sentence (why so needlessly complex?) -- which is just as incredibly difficult to understand: [bbn is] a textbook example of using 'equivocation' to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

Which I take to mean as: [bbn] is 'incorrectly applying Mafia terminology' to pressure a 'certain group of people' that are 'apparently suspicious' without 'actually justifying his suspicions'.

Or in simple words: bbn is scumhunting certain people insufficiently (subjective) and is not justifying himself (false). How does not scumhunting up to your standard make me scum? It sounds like you're using flashy buzzwords, convoluted sentences and sheer volume to disguise a meager case.

Spoiler: click if you would like to see how I interpreted this

Then you sum up the case in an incredibly verbose sentence -- which is just as incredibly difficult to understand: [bbn is] a textbook example of using equivocation to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

Which I take to mean as: [bbn] is incorrectly applying Mafia terminology [link] to pressure a certain group of people that are apparently suspicious without actually justifying his suspicions.

Or in simple words: bbn is scumhunting certain people insufficiently and is not justifying himself.

@Keeper of Night You say that Celever makes a strong case (despite the vagueness). What do you think Celever's case is? (I'd bet that Cel will say I have interpreted this case wrong.)

=========

Celever's original post:

Apparently over the entire course of Day 1, the only players on which he saw not even genuine scumtells but rather only flags of initial suspicion were coincidentally the only players who supported the roz lynch. The only outlier being Zone, which I believe can be explained at least in part because bb has had a historical deference from targeting newer players early on in mafia games for the sake of community.


Tell me it's not bb's exact scum meta to use a town's misplay opportunistically against them in an attempt to snowball things. He does it every single time he's mafia circumstances allowing, and his original posts from his subbing into the thread, presented in the holier than thou tone bb tends to don when he's pushing an agenda in a mafia game, are a textbook example of him using equivocation to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.


And because of this play:
##UNVOTE: professor_jplap
##VOTE: bbninjas


I'm confident with this. It was a decent gambit, but you've tried the same strategy so many times that it's become predictable. And honestly I only noticed because of the poor execution of a lot of the FoSes.

 

[Scattered mind]

The way I see it, bin came in and made openly his thoughts on who might be sus and worth to look into. Otherwise, he would have voted one of the players on the list. Nothing scummy here. I expected the case to be more on his vote on Drac, which was also criticized by Celever. I guess Celever needs to stress further what the case is with bbn.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Replying to things. Readlist will come later when I have the time.

Do you still believe the Mariano case has any basis in reality? Not whether there's a better lynch, but whether it deserves to be considered at all.

It has definite basis in reality. He keeps playing a bit off imo, but his recent posting has gotten a lot better and there's more info out there now and I have more info to lynch than on tonereads so he should be considered as any player in the bottom half of the readslist should, but he's not very top tier rn. Will elaborate more in a readlist.

Yes, I agree he was being way more cryptic than he should have. But it took just that slip for everyone to jump in an insane bukkake all over him and asking stuff agressively that, regarless of whatever he said, nobody changed his mind. He said I'm town and you all had him cornered at gun point asking him to claim, like that would have changed a thing. I myself would have at least waited and, honestly, not placed a vote until he started being clear about things (WIFOM possibly, but considering I'm a sub I guess I get to say my stance). Either way, he /wasn't/ being clear and got lynched for that, but I do have to say that it was a desperate/agressive lynch and all to avoid lynching jplap. I don't remember all very clearly but I'd look a bit more into those that drove the lynch heavily.

The thing worth noting is that Nick was the one I liked the least when it came to jumping onto eevee and not onto Jplap.

First it was a slip, then it was constant denial, then it was a contradiction, then he admitted defeat? I won't deny that the possibility of a scum among the eevee-voters is high, but how the hell are we supposed to think that eevee was town if he behaved like that!?

Everything eevee said near the end made sense and he was clearly denying saying a full role PM on principle not on alignment.

I asked if the indie was a threat to the town and PMJ said The independent player is not considered a threat the town needs to eliminate in order to win.

Lol what townie reading at EoD asks this question? This is a player who knows he's dead anyways so he tries to get what he (incorrectly) believes what will help his faction more. Like this question is the best one but the gamestate makes it bad.
##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Professor_jplap

I am keeping an eye on NP though. But that's almost purely because of his ability which isn't indicative of alignment alone. Him saying he also has an idea of what it does, though, makes me curious.

It's a guess based on title.


Keeper is playing mindgames so I suggest unless we case him, we don't discuss where he actually lies in terms of being a bomb or not; that discussion helps scum much more.

Virtually everyone in the game besides Drac:
3. NinjaPenguin
10. roz_the_eevee Spike (Town) - Lynched Day 1
12. Professor_jplap

Wow I really do hate playing 4'ers D:

This comes with the downside of me always having trouble reading him

Cel this is exactly why it's strange that you're actively defending him from BB when you're wrong so often and pocketed on his alignment.

Could he be the indie? Yeah, it's totally possible. He was the indie in Pirates, where he spent most of the game trying to figure out what the special mechanic in that game did and how it worked. But I'm not ready to lynch him today.

Why would you ever lynch the indie? It's confirmed non-harmful unless Jplap is scum and if you think Jplap is scum your vote should be on him.

BB and Cel I'm pretty sure are both townies, also will elaborate more on this.

 

[Zone Q11]

Page 18- Zone and Celever agree NP is scummy for tone reading, which they refer to as gut-reading. @Zone Q11 - Why didn't you bring this up or pursue this point? Do you think it is too weak or just didn't bother?

If you ask me, accusing NP because of tonereading is pretty weak if the other party says that the mechanics are pretty much the same as a normal read.

You have later stated he is odd in his behaviour and that this might be because he didn't claim.

No. I found it odd that I saw him as less suspicous than Keeper and I said that it was maybe because NP didn't roleclaim. Which is good, because I don't want any more roleclaims at this point.

That's kinda fishy again, with all your subtle role fishing acts, including the time you wondered about the existence of two doctors.

I admit I am highly interested as to what happened in N1, but not to the point where I would rolehunt. I keep saying this, but I am stating my interest into them and I never intend for them to become a topic at all.

 

[Zone Q11]

Everything eevee said near the end made sense and he was clearly denying saying a full role PM on principle not on alignment.

Had he not denied anything from the beginning, then I would agree that everything he had said at the end makes sense.
I- ...actually, I might have to reconsider this...
-> Eevee slipped by saying dead towns are more beneficial
-> People became aware of that and became wary of eevee
-> People basically attack eevee
-> At one point, eevee was cornered, admitted his role and said he was town
-> People said that it was too late at that point


...
... ...
...okay, I might be guilty for his death then.
Still, everyone was pretty paranoid for the indie at D1 so most of us simply voted eevee out of fear that he was a threat to town.
...I don't know what to say anymore.

Lol what townie reading at EoD asks this question? This is a player who knows he's dead anyways so he tries to get what he (incorrectly) believes what will help his faction more. Like this question is the best one but the gamestate makes it bad.
##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Professor_jplap

(-_-)
Even though Post #456 did say that most people disagree with your first question, shouldn't you at least be happy that we don't have to worry about the indie?
Then again, if he was scum then he might as well have lied on his N0 question and throw us all to confusion. Which is actually highly probable...
Either way, assuming that jplap flips scum but tells the truth, who do you think we should suspect the most after him?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Even though Post #456 did say that most people disagree with your first question, shouldn't you at least be happy that we don't have to worry about the indie?
Then again, if he was scum then he might as well have lied on his N0 question and throw us all to confusion. Which is actually highly probable...
Either way, assuming that jplap flips scum but tells the truth, who do you think we should suspect the most after him?

Yeah I like that we know it. But it doesn't change the fact that if town, being mislynched is the worst case scenario and therefore town Jplap wouldn't be asking that question.
If Jplap is scum, Nick/Luis is the obvious scumbuddy. I've noted this before.

 

[Keeper of Night]

@Keeper of Night You say that Celever makes a strong case (despite the vagueness). What do you think Celever's case is? (I'd bet that Cel will say I have interpreted this case wrong.)