Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[Jabberwock]

The thing that change is my access to this site. . So here is my comment on player (some bit)

1. Keeper of Night - I'm relearning how he works. So you are in my "I can't trust list"
2. scattered mind - I'm not totally convince of his alignment but previous game when I played against him (when i was mafia), I can follow up with his methods abit
3. NinjaPenguin - Will Comment Later
5. Camoclone - Good to play with you again
6. bbninjas - You know I'm an easy target based on those point (which can be valid for each game I played). So you are in my "I can't trust list"
7. Mariano11887 - I did say Mariano never been a person that I can differentiated . So you are in my "I can't trust list"
8. Luispipe8 - Will Comment Later
9. Jabberwock - Will Comment Later
11. Celever - At this point if Cel is Mafia, he don't really need to defend me that much as most players know how to really push my lynch
12. Professor_jplap - Pretty much like the past game where he kinda vanish by day 2. His activity might be worth keeping for now.
13. Zone Q - Never played with him before. Since he is active thats something for me to learn about him. So you are in my "I can't trust list"

but for now, since having him around make no different for me
##VOTE: Mariano

Is the "I can't trust list" people you think would make a good lynch? 'Cos that's the closest thing to a scumread I'm seeing there.

If you are to ridicule someone, you stop taking them seriously - that includes any defense that they might take. Basically, Keeper parked his vote and was not going to budge (which I think he admitted at some point anyway), a tunnel basically, which is not pro-town and therefore suspicious.

This is a good point but NAI; I think we all know Keeper would do that regardless of his alignment.

If you are tunneling a lynch, your push is one-sided. You can pick fights with everyone or noone - it doesn't matter - as long as your discussion relating to the wagon is one-sided, you are tunneling.

I'm not gonna comment on the roz stuff bc I wasn't there for the latter half of D1, but I wanna point out that this is not the definition of tunnel we've traditionally used on this site in the couple of years I've been playing WW here. A tunnel is when you pursue a single case above all others, ignoring other potential lynches in favor of the one you've decided has to go. It's like what happened in NP's game where Drac parked a vote on jplap and left it there for like three days straight. People tried to ask him for his thoughts on other lynches and he was like "nah Imma stick with jplap on this one".

An absolute is presenting an interpretation / read / wagon etc as the only possible explanation or course of action. For one, we see this in how you begin Day 2, presenting Jplap as the [only] wagon that everyone needs to be looking into.

This is what a tunnel is.

I am not misleading -- I am correct - you were the only person that Drac did not want to lynch for experience (fact check this here). Drac did not want to lynch Keeper for nostalgia, i.e. Drac wanted to actually play a game with Keeper. Thus; Drac considered "experience" a good enough reason not to lynch someone Day 1. However, Celever was the only person considered to be "experienced", even though scattered and NP (among others) are plenty experienced themselves. This is inconsistent.

Not to but in completely on the Celever case, but it's also worth mentioning that little wording quirks like that aren't nearly as relevant for Drac as they are for a lot of other players, just bc English isn't his first language. This entire paragraph feels really strained.

It has definite basis in reality. He keeps playing a bit off imo, but his recent posting has gotten a lot better and there's more info out there now and I have more info to lynch than on tonereads so he should be considered as any player in the bottom half of the readslist should, but he's not very top tier rn. Will elaborate more in a readlist.

Aight I'm looking forward to that readslist then –– and fully expecting a summary of the Mariano case as it stands rn, because I'm not convinced we're remembering it the same way.

Lol what townie reading at EoD asks this question?

The townie you told to a) ask that question or b) die?

This is a player who knows he's dead anyways so he tries to get what he (incorrectly) believes what will help his faction more. Like this question is the best one but the gamestate makes it bad.
##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Professor_jplap

I'm not the only one seeing this massive backpedal, right? Dx

Why would you ever lynch the indie? It's confirmed non-harmful unless Jplap is scum and if you think Jplap is scum your vote should be on him.

I, uh, had forgotten what jplap's result was. :x

BB and Cel I'm pretty sure are both townies, also will elaborate more on this.

This readslist is coming by the end of the Day, right?

 

[Camoclone]

Day 1:

• I had a lot of posts quoted and when I hit insert quote they appeared then disappeared. I'll go back and find the good ones later.
• Day 1 was an absolute mess.
• The jlap wagon got out of control really fast. Any veteran player who was on that is incredibly suspicious. Jlap didn't really do anything suggesting alignment like @NinjaPenguin said. NinjaPenguin wasn't scum hunting at all though so he looks really bad too. You guys spent so much time on a single person and never bothered with anyone else. That's not a town mentality. NP like I said didn't go in on jlap but he did not even try to push a counter lynch.
• @scattered mind made some really scummy posts yesterday that I'll break down later. He basically did nothing but solidify there being a sole wagon for the day.

I'll go back and try to get my quotes later. I'll catch up sometime today.

 

[Jabberwock]

What actually is your case on me, @Celever? It's not clear at all. You made comments on my recent post, stating that I am incorrect / hunting poorly / need to explain myself (or something to that effect) -- okay, cool, you completely disagree with me; does that make me scummy? Then you noticed -- and I assume that this is the central point -- that by coincidence, I FoS'd basically everyone who voted for Roz. However, you don't believe that this is coincidental (why not coincidence?), and instead you believe that I am being opportunistic by manipulating hindsight in attempt to... well, you don't say, but presumably something like trying to throw false suspicion around. (Then, why have I not actually pushed to lynch any of these people? Where is the evidence of intentional / malicious follow-up behaviour?) And then you justify this by saying "it's bb's exact scum meta", even though meta-reads are weak and dismissable and insubstantial (hence you criticised me for using them), and even though you didn't justify this with evidence (again, for this you criticised me). Are meta-reads weak, or completely valid? You can't have both!

Then you sum up the case in an incredibly verbose sentence (why so needlessly complex?) -- which is just as incredibly difficult to understand: [bbn is] a textbook example of using 'equivocation' to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

Which I take to mean as: [bbn] is 'incorrectly applying Mafia terminology' to pressure a 'certain group of people' that are 'apparently suspicious' without 'actually justifying his suspicions'.

Or in simple words: bbn is scumhunting certain people insufficiently (subjective) and is not justifying himself (false). How does not scumhunting up to your standard make me scum? It sounds like you're using flashy buzzwords, convoluted sentences and sheer volume to disguise a meager case.

Spoiler: click if you would like to see how I interpreted this

Then you sum up the case in an incredibly verbose sentence -- which is just as incredibly difficult to understand: [bbn is] a textbook example of using equivocation to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

Which I take to mean as: [bbn] is incorrectly applying Mafia terminology [link] to pressure a certain group of people that are apparently suspicious without actually justifying his suspicions.

Or in simple words: bbn is scumhunting certain people insufficiently and is not justifying himself.

@Keeper of Night You say that Celever makes a strong case (despite the vagueness). What do you think Celever's case is? (I'd bet that Cel will say I have interpreted this case wrong.)

=========

Celever's original post:

Oh I also meant to comment on this post.

I've read this post three times and still don't have the slightest clue what it's trying to say.

I do like the colors, though.

 

[Keeper of Night]

No no it's ok, PB. Not like I wanted those posts attached.
In response to @bbninjas:

Because the players you focused on with your FoSes were the following:

Celever, Nick, Keeper, quaking, scattered, and Mariano.

Now, some of you may recognise that list. From where, you ask? The final votecount of Day 1:

Apparently over the entire course of Day 1, the only players on which he saw not even genuine scumtells but rather only "flags of initial suspicion" were coincidentally the only players who supported the roz lynch. The only outlier being Zone, which I believe can be explained at least in part because bb has had a historical deference from targeting newer players early on in mafia games for the sake of community.

Tell me it's not bb's exact scum meta to use a town's misplay opportunistically against them in an attempt to snowball things. He does it every single time he's mafia circumstances allowing, and his original posts from his subbing into the thread, presented in the holier than thou tone bb tends to don when he's pushing an agenda in a mafia game, are a textbook example of him using equivocation to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

And because of this play:
##UNVOTE: professor_jplap
##VOTE: bbninjas

I'm confident with this. It was a decent gambit, but you've tried the same strategy so many times that it's become predictable. And honestly I only noticed because of the poor execution of a lot of the FoSes.

This is where I'm referring to Celv's case. It's actually well thought-out. Wrong, maybe, but your response to it would have been worth waiting for (as it was) before replying.

Except now you've confused me with long words and pretty colors, and I really just don't understand your post at all. Maybe when I'm more awake.

Point being, I don't think either of you are scum.
Obviously Ninjas did a great job for his subbing in, providing decent reads. Celv went off on them a bit, but I wouldn't expect less.
Today's argument has been mostly between you two.
At this point it's kind of running in circles.
To be honest I don't read either of your play-styles as different. Celv is always aggressive and Ninjas is always "holier than thou."
Other than push back from Day 1 reads on both sides, the argument doesn't seem to be moving forward.

I'm more curious now to hear from NP on his reads. Yes, Jplap is probably scum, but he's also probably getting modkilled. I don't see much reason to vote him right now, and he keeps putting off his promised list.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

The townie you told to a) ask that question or b) die?

IDK when I did that (I said that or the OC question) but obviously the thread momentum at the end of the day was Cel telling him to ask the OC question or die, along with at least Zone supporting that iirc.

Yes, Jplap is probably scum, but he's also probably getting modkilled.

TBH this mindset is kinda disgusting. I'm not playing "Will they get modkilled?" I'm playing mafia and in mafia you should lynch the scummiest player.

keeps putting off

Lol I just mentioned it for the first time here. When I get the time (probably around 2-3 hours from now) to read ISOs more closely, you'll see it.

NP like I said didn't go in on jlap but he did not even try to push a counter lynch.

Did you even read me advocating for Mariano lynch or pushing Quaking a bit before Cel kept yelling at me that I was bad and didn't let me get a word in for either of the people I wanted dead without posting a wall?
And your thoughts on scattered are literally the polar opposite of mine are you sure you didn't read last game's D1 lol?

 

[PMJ]

His activity is doodoo, but not at modkill stage yet. He will be warned if he doesn't step it up by end of day. Following that will be a modkill.

 

[Scattered mind]

His activity is doodoo, but not at modkill stage yet. He will be warned if he doesn't step it up by end of day. Following that will be a modkill.

##VOTE:JPlap

One post in the entire day and no modkill. This can only encourage him to keep it down. And that also contradicts my thought that he has given up on the game.

 

[Scattered mind]

K when I did that (I said that or the OC question) but obviously the thread momentum at the end of the day was Cel telling him to ask the OC question or die, along with at least Zone supporting that iirc.

You said he’ll die if he won’t ask one of these questions. I don’t understand your reaction and what you mean by the change in gamestate.

 

[Camoclone]

IDK when I did that (I said that or the OC question) but obviously the thread momentum at the end of the day was Cel telling him to ask the OC question or die, along with at least Zone supporting that iirc.

TBH this mindset is kinda disgusting. I'm not playing "Will they get modkilled?" I'm playing mafia and in mafia you should lynch the scummiest player.

Lol I just mentioned it for the first time here. When I get the time (probably around 2-3 hours from now) to read ISOs more closely, you'll see it.

Did you even read me advocating for Mariano lynch or pushing Quaking a bit before Cel kept yelling at me that I was bad and didn't let me get a word in for either of the people I wanted dead without posting a wall?
And your thoughts on scattered are literally the polar opposite of mine are you sure you didn't read last game's D1 lol?

Advocating for someone and pushing for someone is different. What you did is mention that you thought he was scummy and voted but you never followed up. Why did you let Celever bully you? You gotta follow up or it looks like you don’t care who is lynched.

Last day’s D1 is exactly why some of Scattered’s posts are bad. Like I said I’ll quote later.

 

[Camoclone]

Honestly, the only reason I might let Jplap live is :
A- for the case he is town and to get useful results tomorrow
B-there is a better/equally good alternative

So unless I can find a better or an equally good alternative, I am good with this lynch.

And your thoughts on scattered are literally the polar opposite of mine are you sure you didn't read last game's D1 lol?

I ISOd SM. He isn't as scummy as I initially thought although he made some posts like the above especially early which I don't like.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

You said he’ll die if he won’t ask one of these questions. I don’t understand your reaction and what you mean by the change in gamestate.

When the person who has mostly strongarmed the day and somebody else says that you will die tomorrow if you don't ask a question, the gamestate has shifted to this point where the only form of potential self-pres you have is to ask that question. Town takes the potential self-pres because mislynch is worst case scenario. Scum doesn't care because they know they're not a townie and just sorta gives up and asks what they think will help their faction the most.

Why did you let Celever bully you? You gotta follow up or it looks like you don’t care who is lynched.

For the same reason I let you bully me last game: I didn't have the time to do any more than I did.

 

[Scattered mind]

I had a lot of posts quoted and when I hit insert quote they appeared then disappeared. I'll go back and find the good ones later.

Seriously, what’s up with that? It happens to me all the time recently so I have to press reply and copy paste to a different tab. Glad I am not the only one.

tomorrow if you don't ask a question, the gamestate has shifted to this point where the only form of potential self-pres you have is to ask that question. Town takes the potential self-pres because mislynch is worst case scenario. Scum doesn't care because they know they're not a townie and just sorta gives up and asks what they think will help their faction the most.

Self-pres is not in the interest of scum too? I can’t see what scenario they would risk their lives for their faction with this role.

 

[Scattered mind]

Oh wait, actually I can see that (the real role being investigating seers and stuff).

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Self-pres is not in the interest of scum too? I can’t see what scenario they would risk their lives for their faction with this role.

It's a matter of mindset. Town is town so they know they can survive because at the end of the day they are right and their accusers are wrong. New scum is scum so they know they're guilty and just feels like they are caught and are upset and give up, like Jplap has done.

 

[Zone Q11]

Yeah I like that we know it. But it doesn't change the fact that if town, being mislynched is the worst case scenario and therefore town Jplap wouldn't be asking that question.
If Jplap is scum, Nick/Luis is the obvious scumbuddy. I've noted this before.

I see. Noted.
...hrm. I kinda want to hear your read on Mariano, but I suppose I will wait until you have finished your ISOs.

Town takes the potential self-pres because mislynch is worst case scenario. Scum doesn't care because they know they're not a townie and just sorta gives up and asks what they think will help their faction the most

Self-pres is not in the interest of scum too? I can’t see what scenario they would risk their lives for their faction with this role.

Hrm... Hey, is there any chance that jplap is not a good mafia player or any chance of jplap being too busy with RL to the point where he didn't read all posts? Because I suddenly thought of a world where jplap is a town like that.

I mean, why else would he say that he asked the indie question instead of the town-scum question? Had he been scum, then he could have said that he asked the town-scum question while giving a self-thought fake answer.

 

[Camoclone]

Semi caught up.
##VOTE: ZONE Q11

 

[NinjaPenguin]

It's a matter of mindset. Town is town so they know they can survive because at the end of the day they are right and their accusers are wrong. New scum is scum so they know they're guilty and just feels like they are caught and are upset and give up, like Jplap has done.

Giving up, of course, leads to doing what he doesn't believe will look like a townie and instead what he believes will help his faction the most (which Cel has convinced the scumteam is the indie question).

Hrm... Hey, is there any chance that jplap is not a good mafia player or any chance of jplap being too busy with RL to the point where he didn't read all posts? Because I suddenly thought of a world where jplap is a town like that.

Didn't Cel tag/quote him when he said to ask the OC question or die so Jplap would get an alert?

 

[Zone Q11]

Semi caught up.
##VOTE: ZONE Q11

...I don't remember D2 having a RVS, and a naked vote at that too.

Giving up, of course, leads to doing what he doesn't believe will look like a townie and instead what he believes will help his faction the most (which Cel has convinced the scumteam is the indie question).

I don't get this sentence, and I don't understand at all how saying that he asked the indie question would benefit the scumteam, considering Celever has threatened jplap to die were he to do so.

Didn't Cel tag/quote him when he said to ask the OC question or die so Jplap would get an alert?

Actually, you were the one who tagged him while Celever threatened him in the next post without tagging him.

...hm? This doesn't make sense. Even if jplap is an inactive town, you would expect for him to at least read Celever's threat... and I am kind of losing the idea of jplap being scum, because if he was scum, then his scumbuddies ought to have warned him in the scum PM.

...this is very confusing.

 

[Scattered mind]

I mean, why else would he say that he asked the indie question instead of the town-scum question? Had he been scum, then he could have said that he asked the town-scum question while giving a self-thought fake answer.

Yeah it makes sense. There would be no reason to risk himself. But why insisting on answering that question as town?

The point is eventually not indicative. What’s indicative at the moment is the fact he is not here explaining himself while being active on the site and without any modkill for the day.

 

[Camoclone]

Speaking of creating a read of my own: I will definitely make a read as soon as everyone has talked a little bit more (and I think that Jade has yet to speak this game), but I am definitely sure that it is wrong as well. Lately, my actions as PR have only killed more town than scum, so if I have a killing PR (which I thankfully don't have this time), I will abstain.

Bold. Why would town mention that they don't have a killing PR? With so much flip flopping in posts he is intentionally making it hard to get a read on him. Basically every post does one of these:

• Post a fact
• Ask a question
• Post a lot of fluff
• Solidify the idea that he doesn't know

...I don't remember D2 having a RVS, and a naked vote at that too.

I don't get this sentence, and I don't understand at all how saying that he asked the indie question would benefit the scumteam, considering Celever has threatened jplap to die were he to do so.

Actually, you were the one who tagged him while Celever threatened him in the next post without tagging him.

...hm? This doesn't make sense. Even if jplap is an inactive town, you would expect for him to at least read Celever's threat... and I am kind of losing the idea of jplap being scum, because if he was scum, then his scumbuddies ought to have warned him in the scum PM.

...this is very confusing.

I encourage you to pick one of Q11's posts randomly and see if it follows the formula. Note how his latest post follows it.

• Starts with a question
• Asks another question
• Posts a fact
• Posts a contradicting sentence stating that jlap doesn't seem like an inactive town and is seeming less and less like scum.
• Ends with stating that he doesn't know

He also likes to ask questions about things that aren't important to give the impression that he is contributing a lot.