Discussion Sword & Shield In Expanded

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by Kenatta_tcg, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    Starting to get ready for Collinsville now that all the information on Sword & Shield is out, and am curious to see what you guys think the impact will be on Expanded. Also, how will the new turn 1 supporter rule affect current decks?

    Here are some of my thoughts based on decks played at Dallas. I added one new one from Sw&Sh. If you see any I missed let me know and I will add them.

    Roxie Chomp - gets better with Galarian Zigzagoon.
    Turbo Dark - no change, still great.
    Vileplume - will either fail hard to turn 1 rule or have to include a lot of items (current version is almost all supporters for setup, which can't be played if you end up going first). Could foresee a lot of donks.
    Shock Lock - no change.
    Night March - no change.
    Ultra Necrozma - no change.
    Mewbox - no change.
    Gardevoir Sylveon - will be much less stable due to turn 1 rule preventing Green's.
    Zoro Garb - will drop considerably due to supporter rule preventing Brigette.
    Pikarom - no change.
    Trevenant Milotic - no change
    Archie's Stoise - will struggle to hit turn 1 more now with supporter rule, but doesn't change much.
    (NEW) Snorlax VMax - Had to mention this one just due to its HP and shear damage when paired with Sky Field (300 damage). Not sure how it deals with 1 prize attackers or accelerates (frosmoth/welder/3ce/other).
     


  2. I like pokemon Aspiring Trainer
    I like pokemon

    Member

    Snorlax could just use triple acceleration energy.
     
  3. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    I actually thought of triple acceleration, but my concern in expanded was running into decks that deny special energy (i.e noivern gx, etc). If you don't use actual energy then you just lose.
     
  4. Wechselbalg *****
    Wechselbalg

    Member

    Archie's may or may not be completely screwed because of the new T1 rule and depending on how popular silent lab/power plant is/will be. If you can't play Archie's on your first turn it's pointless to go first, and if you choose to go second and your opponent drops a lab or a plant on you and you don't have a counter stadium in hand you just lose since good luck with pulling off an Archie's without playing a single shaymin/dedenne/lele. I mean it's possible but you need a godly starting hand which is not something that will consistently happen.
     
  5. Nyora A Cat
    Nyora

    Member

    Pokémon Ranger. And Noivern only deals 120. You have plenty of time.

    Archie’s impact on the meta has not really been too existent for awhile anyways so it going away doesn’t seem to be a big deal tbh. Good deck, just won’t be nearly as popular a choice anymore.

    I think Zacian V is gonna be really good, it’s Ability to 2-shot every VMAX and OHKOing Tag Teams seems really relevant. (230 + 30 from CB + 10 from Dhelmise). Since it can reliably go first without running into many problems too thanks to it’s Intrepid Sword Ability, I can see this being a good contender. Having amazing acceleration in Metal Saucer and Max Elixir is gonna help too.

    Also I don’t know if it can ever be considerable or not, but the combo of Ether and the new Oranguru sticks out to me. As long as you have Oranguru in play, a basic Energy card in hand, and Ether, you can guaruntee the Ether hits while also getting whatever the top deck was.
     
    Otaku likes this.
  6. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member


    Note:
    The following is speculation.

    I'm wondering how many decks will start using Quick Ball either instead of or in addition to Ultra Ball. If you really need to discard two cards (versus one) and (of course!) if you need to search out Evolutions, you'll stick with Ultra Ball. Some decks may switch to a combination of the two.

    I think some decks will just learn to go second whenever they can; your opponent's setup T1 is now entirely dependent on opening, opening draw, and whatever Abilities, Items, and/or Stadium effects one can activate. T2 donks may become a thing.

    I'm sure many other things will happen, but I'm sneaking this in before I get ready to run errands, so I need to move on. ;)

    Here are some of my thoughts based on decks played at Dallas. I added one new one from Sw&Sh. If you see any I missed let me know and I will add them.

    Out of these, and besides structural changes a la the Quick Ball/Ultra Ball thing I already mentioned, how dependent is Zoro Garb on a T1 Brigette? Haven't seen a modern list, but it seems like it should just be hurting a little, not a lot. Because it is the kind of deck that can adjust to use more Ball support, spare a turn to bounce or discard (via Supporter) Shaymin-EX (ROS) or Dedenne-GX Benched to aid in early game set up on a later turn. Go ahead and tell me what obvious thing I am missing, because I'm sure I am missing something obvious. XD

    Edit: Okay, have a few minutes so I'm slipping this in as well. Here was the highest placing list I found from the Dallas, TX Regional Championship. Jon Eng used it to place 4th:

    Pokemon - 24
    4 Zorua DEX 70
    4 Zoroark-GX SLG 53
    1 Trubbish NVI 48
    1 Trubbish PLS 65
    2 Garbodor LTR 68
    1 Garbodor GRI 51
    2 Exeggcute PLF 4
    2 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
    1 Dedenne-GX UNB 57
    1 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
    1 Sudowoodo GRI 66
    1 Klefki STS 80
    1 Mew UNB 76
    1 Oranguru UPR 114
    1 Ditto Prism Star LOT 154

    Trainer - 30
    3 Colress PLS 118
    1 Brigette BKT 134
    1 N FCO 105
    1 Guzma BUS 115
    4 VS Seeker PHF 109
    4 Ultra Ball SLG 68
    2 Cherish Ball UNM 191
    2 Field Blower GRI 125
    1 Battle Compressor PHF 92
    1 Great Catcher CEC 192
    1 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
    1 Super Rod BKT 149
    1 Dowsing Machine PLS 128
    2 Choice Band GRI 121
    2 Float Stone BKT 137
    3 Sky Field ROS 89

    Energy - 6
    4 Double Colorless Energy SLG 69
    2 Psychic Energy 5​

    Even if Brigette is worth cutting without a T1 application, that is only one slot. Being a single, maybe it isn't that important, but I'm assuming the real reason is you just don't need it except on your first turn, and you've got Tapu Lele-GX to fetch it and VS Seeker if you did need to use it again. XP The two Cherish Ball look handy for getting out of some dead hand situations, as well as early set-up, so I don't think I can just swap them out for Quick Ball without the list suffering.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  7. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    I think that is the concern most people have moving into the new meta and t1 rule is that you have to play a higher item count. It's not so much for when you win the flip as when you lose and your opponent forces you into first. It you were say relying on Brigette and playing a heavy supporter line like Zoroark and Vileplume traditionally do then your chance of getting a dead hand increase dramatically. Not to mention the fact that the items only get you so far when it comes to Pokémon. You need 3 quick balls and 3 discards, or 3 ultra balls and 6 discards, or some in between combination to get the same as you would out of 1 Brigette. It's just highly inefficient for setup reliant decks and requires far to much in resources to avoid turn 1 donk.
     
  8. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    I have actually been theorizing with Zacian quite a bit for expanded. What I wonder though is how you win against decks like Ultra Necrozma, Night March, and other one prize attacker decks. Tinachomp has Noivern to deny them playing energy, so they can just sit there forever attacking with Noivern and not care about pace of prices. Because those decks rely solely on special energy they can't ever attack again unless they have Pokemon Ranger, which is a rare inclusion. The trade seems unfavorable if with Zacian V unless you are running something else. I have thought about ADP. I would love to hear your thoughts on that idea and especially if you have a list in mind or one you have been testing.
     
  9. Nyora A Cat
    Nyora

    Member

    ADP is the best defense you have against 1-Prizers. Kartana-GX could actually be considered if it didn’t have such low HP and could KO something that isn’t NM. A lot of them run Special Energy, so Jirachi XY67 is considerable. Given Zacian has 220 HP as well, it’s actually really hard for NM and Unecrozma to OHKO (NM needs either Joltik or 11 NMs in the discard), so straight tanking can be slightly effective as well. Vespiquen decks that may still run around may use Flareon, but all run into the same problem of Jirachi. Not that it wins the matchup or anything, but it’s energy discarding coupled with Zacian’s HP makes it easier to win the game by running them out of resources. Other techs could be played to make this more effective too, such as the Metal Core Barrier I mentioned earlier. KOing Shaymin and stuff always helps too.

    EDIT: Muscle Bands over Choice Bands allow Jirachi to OHKO Joltik with Dhelmise :> Not that this is a good idea, but it is considerable and the downside of course would just be reliance on Sky Fields for more Dhelmise. That said Muscle Band doesn’t really help too much outside of that, except that Jirachi does actually put offensive pressure on some smaller attackers now too. 2HKOs Pumpkaboo, 3HKO on Vespiquen (or 2 with 2 Dhelmise), 4HKOs Unecrozma. It’s not significant, but can payout especially if you’re to keep spamming it.
     
  10. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    I'm actually surprised to see you include Jirachi. I haven't seen any expanded decks running Jirachi simply because of the number of cards you would have to include (3-4 Jirachi, 2 escape board, 3-4 switch). Most expanded decks just play float stone to retreat and call it a day. Search can be done by thinning through battle compressor and then just using vs seeker combined with trainers mail. IMO that is a much more efficient way of searching that uses less cards and thins your deck quite a bit.

    ADP was where I was leaning. I haven't tried using Dhelmise (GRI), but that might be a nice inclusion to counter TinaChomp as that and choice band gets you there. I would love to see a list for this to test.

    I guess my biggest concern with Zacian V would be how you beat Vileplume, assuming it still sees play. They wall off basics completely.

    Another deck I have been trying to work with is Snorlax VMax because of its HP and damage with Sky Field. That said, it hasn't worked very well due to the number of Pokémon you have to have to hit for big numbers. That and the moment Sky Field is bumped your damage drops dramatically.
     
  11. Nyora A Cat
    Nyora

    Member

    I guess that Jirachi could work... But I was referring to XY67 Jirachi. IDK about Vileplume, probably just suck up and own the loss unless you wanna slap some hoods in and get real lucky T1.
     
  12. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    @Kenatta_tcg Yeah, you're basically saying something I'm usually the one to bring up in discussions. XD Sorry I wasn't clear: the idea is that decks have faced similar roadblocks in the past. Some adapt directly and some indirectly. The former would be things like changing your list to have a counter to the problem. The latter is a combination of learning how to work with what you have under poor circumstances, and taking advantage of the tournament structure. You either have to be stubborn, be willing to rely on luck, or be skilled at reading and anticipating the metagame for the latter.

    When it comes to the difficulty of setting up relying on Items... yeah. Don't forget that, if your opponent doesn't open with Wobbuffet (PHF) you can still utilize Exeggcute (PLF) to cover heavy discard costs. If your list is going to use Shaymin-EX (ROS) or Dedenne-GX, the discard costs could help thin your hand, or won't matter as much because your hand was about to be trashed, respectively. Also, we're not talking about it being as good as Brigette, we're talking about tweaking the list so the new T1 list doesn't kill it. Big difference.

    If I misunderstood what that meant, my apologies. To me, it reads as... well... Zoro Garb experiencing a considerable drop in performance, as opposed to simply "taking a hit" or experiencing just a drop in performance. XP

    A crazy idea I had* in general was Zacian V. Run it without any basic Metal Energy, or at least very few, and just use it as T1 draw three that ends your turn. Yeah, Tropical Beach does it better but most folks don't own that card, and even those that do have to run Stadium Nav, max it out, etc. to make sure they open with it. Zacian V is a Basic Pokémon, so there are plenty of search and even discard-then-recycling options to field it reliably T1, even if your deck runs just one copy. An added bonus is that it keeps your opponent guessing; is this just T1 TecH to deal with the new rules and/or certain forms of disruption, or is it a full-on Zacian V hybrid deck. After all, some of the strangest combinations work in the TCG. :D

    The thing about certain strategies is, the more common they become, the more everyone counters them, the less effective they may become. Since I used to play it heavily, as a reminder there was a time when Vespiquen/Flareon decks started running Black Smith with three basic Fire Energy cards to deal with anti-Special Energy effects. Sometimes they would also swap out a Flareon [Plasma] for Flareon (AOR) so that Vepsiquen itself could take advantage of the trick! I mean, Battle Compressor and VS Seeker meant you might be able to do it five times in one game.


    *Or that someone else had, shared, and I spaced off it was from them XP
     
  13. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    Lol, I totally forgot about that Jirachi. Definitely not a bad tech option to counter night march and might also work against Ultra Necrozma as well, although that one would be chipping away for a while. I would imagine you would have to turn use ADPs GX turn 1 to make that strategy at all viable, otherwise you just do 10 damage for eternity :)
     
  14. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    Yeah sorry for the confusion, I don't think ZoroGarb disappears at all. I think it definitely drops a tier losing the ability to setup with supporter if you end up going first, but I don't think it is gone. The problem it will have to deal with is needing to run a heavier item count, which is less efficient and requires many more cards. ZoroGard is usually tight for space and I would imagine that will be a problem.

    I hear you on Zacian V. It's ability makes it really tempting to include in a variety decks in the event you go first. What I want to see, and have started to think through is just a straight up list with tech options. I feel like you can easily create favorable matchups with pretty much all the decks I listed except Vileplume, which still feels to me like an auto loss. That said, TinaChomp had the same issue as even Hunter admitted that matchup was an auto loss. I don't expect Vileplume to be as good now because it has almost no items and could easily be donked when it loses the flip and has to go first. That said the list could just drastically change.
     
  15. Nyora A Cat
    Nyora

    Member

    The 10 is low, but it's the effect you're going for. The chip damage is good because it lets you spam it more with actual gain.
     
  16. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    Yeah but I was thinking of running a 2 count of ADP anyway, which if you turn 1 GX gives you 40 damage out of Jirachi. That is a OHKO on joltik and you make your active invincible to attacks/effects. Great idea.
     
  17. Wechselbalg *****
    Wechselbalg

    Member

    Joltik resists metal so that's actually 20.
     
  18. Nyora A Cat
    Nyora

    Member

    You need Jirachi with either ADP+Dhelmise or Muscle Band+2 Dhelmise.
    The issue here is that Brigette takes up only 1 slot, actually. And it’s because what you need to fill the void is more cards to make up for losing Brigette, like Quick Ball. This is going to hurt ZoroGarb so much as it already has a hard time with deck space and now that you’re forced to run more cards just to not lose T2, I’m not so sure on how viable it’ll be anymore. This and not being able to OHKO 2-Prizers like Zacian V and whatever else makes it realllllyy weak for a 2 Prize attacker. I don’t think ZoroGarb is good going into SWSH format and will probably drop significantly in play due to the T1 rule and it being even weaker now.
     
  19. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer
    Kenatta_tcg

    Member

    Actually I already have 1 Dhelmise in my current list and am thinking about a 2nd.

    I agree totally on ZoroGarb as it has now a number of unfavorable matchups with the new meta, not including have to add a lot of cards to compensate for Brigette just to avoid turn 1 donk.
     
  20. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    So, about Zoro Garb taking a big hit as of Sword & Shield, @Nyora you make a compelling case. @Kenatta_tcg sorry if I was being thick, but as someone checking out this thread because I'm out of touch with Expanded, I took what you said at face value. This is why I tend to over explain; those moments where someone says

    and everyone else gets

    but sometimes - like this one - I don't. XP
     
    snoopy369 likes this.

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