Discussion Sword & Shield In Expanded

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by Kenatta_tcg, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer


    Yeah no worries. Just trying to figure out myself which deck to play for my son to play. I'm kind of between TinaChomp and Zacian V, although I haven't really seen a good list yet for the later. I have been working on one myself, but it definitely needs some work. I feel those two decks have all around favorable matchups with the exception of stall and vileplume lock, both of which I have been working on counters for. That being said, I'm not sure how much either of those decks will be played as they rely heavily on T1 supporter to set up. That no longer being possible in the event that you lose, they are going to have to compensate by adding a ton of ball search cards to replace what would have easily been accomplished by Brigette. In that sense they are in the same boat as ZoroGarb.

  2. snoopy369 Aspiring Trainer

    Advanced Member Member

    @Kenatta_tcg What age group is your son, if I can ask? My 8 year old is currently very negative on playing Expanded (even though I'm going to Collinsville, and we live like 5 hours away, he's unwilling to go because he can't imagine playing expanded). Are these roughly-standard-modified decks actually competitive, particularly in Juniors, or is it pretty hopeless to build a deck with basically last 2-3 years worth of cards and hope to win a couple of games in Expanded?
  3. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer


    My son is in Juniors and playing for stipend, so he is more on the competitive side. This is his first shot at Expanded and he is really excited about it. He loves really aggressive decks and finds the format much faster that standard. My son started playing in the Sun & Moon era, so he didn't have a lot of expanded cards either. We had to acquire a lot of those (i.e. battle compressor, vs seeker, exeggcute, etc). The biggest hit is getting an Ace Trainer like Computer Search. In Juniors you will have any number of players show up with decks all across the map. The top tier players will all be playing top tier expanded decks and will pretty much always win as most of them are playing for stipend. Outside of that, you get some standard decks, and a lot of standard slightly modified expanded decks in Juniors. You will also see some easier to play expanded decks like Night March. At Dallas I want to say 1/2 the decks were Darkbox and Ultra Necrozma combined. As long as he isn't expecting to win it all he could probably still do pretty well with a slightly modified deck if his play skills are decent. Another thing to keep in mind is that Juniors never fill up, so they all end up prizing. I want to say minimum prize is like 18 packs. Top 8 usually gets 3 boxes.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
    snoopy369 likes this.
  4. snoopy369 Aspiring Trainer

    Advanced Member Member

    Ok, I'll talk to him about that! I definitely think we could make (for example) a Roxie's deck, if he was willing to practice it enough to play it (we have _most_ of the cards for that, at least, excepting the Ace Specs which we'll just ignore). He's gone 3-4 in two regionals so far (both last year), and was happy to do that, but those were both standard so I assume a bigger crew. Losing 7 would crush him, though, but losing 4-5 would be fine (and expected). He's played against two stipend-competitive Juniors before, and at least shown up to the competition, though isn't able to beat them of course... but he's only 8 so what can you expect. :)
  5. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer


    It's really hard to say how well he will do. 8 is a tough age in Juniors. My son is 9 and has been playing competitively for over a year now, so he has a lot of experience, which helps quite a lot. The problem is that there is no clear meta for this tournament as its the first expanded regional with Sw & Sh. Ironically, that is why I created this forum was to get insight into possible options.
    I get avoiding the Ace Specs due to price, but I will say the power level of those cards is off the charts. Just that one inclusion gives the other play a significant advantage. I would approach it as a learning opportunity as he still has another 2 years in Juniors. A lot of the top players will age up this year and it will get easier as he has more experience and there are newer players. Even though my son has a lot more experience I always remind him not to worry about the results because you can't control matchups. He placed 2nd in a regional earlier this year insisting on playing a list in standard of ADP not teched against Mewbox, which I told him was a mistake. Over 1/4 of the decks in Juniors were Mewbox and he didn't hit a single one. You can't control that kind of stuff. The reverse is true as well. He had a friend who played Mewbox and didn't tech the mirror match. His friend hit 4 in a row and lost all of them. Just tell him to enjoy the experience and learn as much as possible for future years.
    snoopy369 likes this.
  6. snoopy369 Aspiring Trainer

    Advanced Member Member

    Yeah, that makes sense. We talked last night about some deck possibilities, and we'll see if he changes his mind. He seemed intrigued by a few decks, unfortunately most intrigued by Archie's Blastoise which seems pretty dead with the supporter rule change of course. But maybe Roxie's (which we actually have nearly all of the cards for, save a Shaymin and a couple minor things) might work, if he can practice it enough to get it off. He also really liked Shock Lock, which of course is a definite no since it not only basically requires the tropical beaches (at a cost of over k) but is pretty hard to play also... so if he does try one of the other decks maybe I'll proxy one up so he can practice against it :) (I'm guessing few or no Juniors will play it, anyway.)

    I also wonder if the new Sableye/Obstagoon deck might have a place in the Expanded meta... combining with Roxies in some fashion, probably. He had fun beating me last night with that (vs. my Lapras VMax deck).
  7. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer


    After some playtesting I will give you some thoughts on the decks you mentioned. Archie's Blastoise is going to be weakened by the supporter rule, but it won't go away. That said in Dallas very few juniors played that deck. Roxiechomp is solid, but hurt greatly without the computer search as you need an almost perfect amount of cards to hit turn 1 KOs. I find myself digging a lot for one piece, and the comp search gives you that one a lot of the time. I definitely think some Obstagoon pieces could go in to Roxichomp, like galarian zigzagoon. Even Hunter mentioned that one in his interview. Shock Lock only had 1 junior play it at Dallas, for obvious financial reasons. It's a good deck, but mostly gets a lot of wins against people who don't know how to play against it or aren't teched in against it. I don't think Obstagoon has any viability in expanded because it is just too slow and too low on damage output. Dark Box will be super popular at Collinsville I would imagine, as it was the #1 most played deck in juniors, followed closely by both versions of Ultra Necrozma. From what I recall those 3 decks were almost 3/4 of all decks played in juniors.

    You could also go toward more of a Sw & Sh deck if you are investing in the newer sets. Decks like Zacian V and Snorlax VMax I am sure will make their rounds in all divisions. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of lists out for those as a lot of players are still testing. We are currently testing both those lists to find ways to make them work. Just a few thoughts that might help.
    snoopy369 likes this.
  8. Merovingian Dead Game Enthusiast

    Articles Head Member

    I tried running budget Shock Lock at Dallas and somehow got the worst brick hands I could ask for, as well as some seriously weird matchups (Bird Trio / Milotic was a hopeless autoloss).

    If I were going to Collinsville, I'd run this, depending on how geared people are for teching for Shock Lock:

    POKEMON: 19
    - 4 - Raichu (BUS)
    - 4 - Pikachu (CEC)
    - 3 - Sableye (DEX)
    - 2 - Emolga (TEU)
    - 2 - Dedenne-GX
    - 2 - Yveltal (TEU)
    - 1 - Girafarig (LOT)
    - 1 - Ditto Prism Star

    TRAINERS: 33
    - 4 - Professor Juniper/Professor Sycamore/Professor's Research
    - 4 - N
    - 3 - Faba
    - 2 - Bellelba & Brycen-Man
    - 2 - Team Rocket's Handiwork
    - 1 - Pokemon Ranger
    - 4 - Ultra Ball
    - 4 - Quick Ball
    - 2 - Devolution Spray
    - 2 - Ordinary Rod
    - 1 - Scoop Up Cyclone (ACE SPEC)

    ENERGY: 8
    - 8 - Darkness Energy

    Thoughts for Collinsville/Takeaways from Dallas

    - Mewtwo & Mew-GX - You have to playtest this matchup like CRAZY. This matchup (and to a lesser extent, Shock Lock) is why you are fielding 2 Yveltals. IF you point all your Faba at Dimension Valley, and hit their Mewtwo & Mew-GX with Derail constantly, they can't keep up. As soon as you see M Gardevoir EX in the discard, hit it with Get Lost (which drops their damage potential to abysmal numbers). Them using Cobalion-GX makes the matchup hard, but not unwinnable--you just dont shoot for paralysis lock as your primary goal, but you do get out a couple Pikachu out early to bait out their GX attack and force them to go Lost Bommerang GX (I'm more scared of them using Iron Law GX). But there's A LOT that happens in this matchup that could go very very wrong very very quickly.

    - Shock Lock - lean on Derail. If you Prize your Scoop Up Cyclone, scoop and go to Game 2. As long as you have Scoop Up Cyclone in your deck, you can constantly Paralyze them and Scoop up your Paralyzed Sableye, advance another Sableye and get Devolution Spray and Scoop Up Cyclone back. This puts them on finite resources. Once you are in a favorable position and they can't Paralyze you, manually retreat and send up Yveltal and Derail/Clutch.

    - If Mewtwo & Mew-GX and/or Shock Lock are not meta priorities, you can drop Yveltal. Add a 2nd Girafarig.

    - If Zoro Garb is taking a massive hit as I've been reading, you can drop all instances of Faba and add Stealthy Hood. Try and find room for 4 because Wobbuffet is said to be HUGE.

    - Turbo Dark is an easy matchup, just watch for CEC Guzzlord. If they fill their bench before they drop CEC Guzzlord, don't use the secondary effect of Bellelba & Brycen-Man, even if you have a Dedenne-GX on your bench. Just use the Dedenne-GX to bait out Guzma.

    - Gardevoir and Sylveon-GX - This matchup is weird. They won't be able to attack for a bit. But make sure you get a Sableye active and a Sableye on your bench, both with Energy. Mill their deck ASAP and hit them often. They can run a bunch of outs to Paralysis lock, so its important that you hit them often, especially with Bellelba & Brycen-Man. They WILL get you with the GX+ attack. So have Sableye active and another on your Bench, both with 1 Energy. Also, once they get 4-5 Energy in play, make sure you have 1 VS Seeker in your discard pile and don't Junk Hunt for it until they use the GX attack. They are going to get out of paralysis lock with AZ or Guzma, so you don't know who will get hit, so you have 2 Sableye ready to go. You lose your hand. IF you don't draw out of it next turn, Junk Hunt a VS Seeker and an Ordinary Rod (or a devolution spray if your setup has a Raichu in play). Beyond the GX attack and getting the lock back up, you just need to hit their deck as hard as you can. Also, if they tech GRI Comfey, it's an autoloss.

    I have been on a hiatus since Dallas and I haven't tested the deck in a bit, if there are any matchups you can think of that anyone would want clarification on, let me know.
  9. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer


    Funny, I thought shocklock wasn't anywhere near as good without tropical beach, which I didn't see in your list. Obviously most players can't come anywhere near affording it, so no criticism meant there. Just thought it was kind of bricky without that card. Ironically every list I have tested in various decks has played a counter for that deck, and it seems like a lot of people are going to have counters for it just by default. For example, Tinachomp has Comfey to counter hypnotoxic laser and darkbox, which naturally just works as a counter for shocklock. I tested Zacian V quite a bit and run a Cobailion GX in every list to counter hypnotoxic laser, which again counters shocklock as well. I think Gardeon is going to be almost non-existent at Collinsville. It really is terrible in new meta as Green's can't be played turn 1 any game you go first and the deck just gets donked a lot. What Hunter did at Dallas has been my experience over and over again playing against Gardeon with a variety of decks. My expectation after testing and working with several of the higher leaderboard players in our area is that Ultra Necrozma, Darkbox, Zacian V, and Tinachomp are going to be the more popular decks this time around (not in any particular order). Sadly I think your shocklock deck is going to get hard countered just due to be people trying to counter the OHKO from darkbox, which will probably be the most played deck at Collinsville. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of mewbox running around, just making it an all around difficult weekend for shocklock.
  10. Nyora A Cat


    Alolan Muk can be teched in for Wobbuffet, MewMew, and Comfey/Virizion-EX/Cobalion-GX. I think it’s too good to pass up, even if you run quite a bit of your own basic abilities.

    Moving forward, evolution decks or decks that can play Ditto Prism Star might start playing the new Galarian Rapidash if any Shock Lock fairest is to become too good or popular, or the deck can’t run Comfey/Virizion-EX/Cobalion-GX for whatever reason. While this is not happening right now, it’s definitely something to consider for the future of the deck. And honestly, another good reason to add Alolan Muk, as much as that would then be more luck-reliant, since if they get out Galarian Rapidash at all, you just lose.
  11. Merovingian Dead Game Enthusiast

    Articles Head Member

    I think the funny part is that the next batch of Expanded Regionals for the rest of the season are all going to be under BW-SwSh. Like, none of them will get the new expansion, so it's seriously three Expanded Regionals that are all SwSh.

    That said, it's going to require Shock Lock going off the radar again, and possibly Turbo Dark for people to stop teching Comfey and Cobalion-GX. Apparently, Zacian V decks can function very similarly like Turbo Dark. Turbo Dark has a more "box" aspect to it. I don't know, I've only seen a couple lists floating about. But yeah, it doesn't seem like a good time to use any variant of Shock Lock right now.

    Expanded GardEon doesn't use Green's--in any capacity. If anything tanks it, it's the fact that Zacian V OHKOs it quickly. The Supporter rule doesn't seem to hurt it too badly since it usually relies on being tanky and spend the first 3 turns getting set up anyway.

    MewBox is definitely doable, but it's a 50-50 matchup at best if you absolutely know what you're doing.
  12. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer


    I have seen some lists for Gardeon, and they all get destroyed in this meta because of Zacian V being floated so much. Between max elixir and metal saucer it is super easy to hit turn 1 running 2 Shaymin and 2 Dedenne. Also, even if it weren't Gardeon, the variant I am testing for Zacian V has 2 Dhelmise and 2 Choice band with 3 Skyfield, so turn 1 OHKO on any tag team is pretty easy. In fact, in my testing I'm not sure I have missed a turn 1 tag team OHKO yet. That said, Zacian V has terrible 1 prize attacker matchups, particularly Ultra Necrozma. If they play Garbotoxin, which a lot of lists do, that matchup is almost an auto-loss. Your only real hope is a brick/donk. Incidentally the list I was testing does run Cobalion for the dark matchup.

    Personally I think Turbo Dark is going to be everywhere next week at Collinsville. It is consistent, has a good matchup spread, and is a known commodity, which is pretty strong in an unknown meta. It doesn't get affected much by the supporter rule, and thanks to the inclusion of Guzzlord can catch up on prizes against Ultra Necrozma and other one prize attacker decks. Mewtwo also seems to be fairly consistent in the new meta/turn 1 rule. I would expect a lot of that as well. Ultra Necrozma, as bricky as it is, will probably also see a lot of play. I believe this will include a lot of players hoping to capitalize on a heavy dedenne/shaymin meta. Turn 1 labs followed by turn 2 garbotoxin is down right brutal in this format. Of course hitting that combo certainly isn't easy in a deck that lacks EX/GX draw power, but it certainly does feel good when you do.
  13. The Golden Mewtwo That guy who plays a counter deck
    The Golden Mewtwo


    Does anyone have a Tinachomp list? I’m going to Charlotte and I want to start testing but can’t find a SWSH list anywhere. I also wanted to know if anyone had tips for the senior division in expanded
  14. Kenatta_tcg Aspiring Trainer


    You can take Hunter's list off Limitlesstcg and just make a few small changes to it. There really isn't much from Sw&Sh to add to that list other than quick ball and probably Zigagoon. Senior's division is tough, especially if this your first regional in expanded. You can expect around 100 players and all the top tier players in the US/Canada to be there. They travel pretty consistently to regionals and internationals. I actually feel like this matchup has a pretty good spread going into Collinsville, but I could be wrong. The tough matchups for this deck are going to be Vileplume and Snorlax VMax if you aren't teched. Zacian V is a 50/50 matchup. The rest of the matchups are pretty favorable, especially your Ultra Necrozma matchup, which I expect to see a lot of at Collinsville. A lot of people just want to drop labs turn 1 and garbotoxin turn 2 to totally brick opponents relying on Shaymin and Dedenne. Fortunately you will get to see Collinsville results this weekend and can use those for Charlotte. My son is in Juniors and attending Collinsville and then probably Charlotte after that. Collinsville will be a blind meta since we just got Sw&Sh legal, whereas Charlotte you will have more of an established meta since Collinsville already happened. Personally I would wait to make a deck choice for Charlotte till you see what happens this weekend.
    The Golden Mewtwo likes this.
  15. The Golden Mewtwo That guy who plays a counter deck
    The Golden Mewtwo


    Yeah I’ve also been testing Zacian V, I cut three ultra balls for quick balls but I don’t know what to cut for zigzagoons. I went to Greensboro last year which was expanded, but I finished about middle of the group with a Zoro deck but I defiantly wasn’t prepping for the meta going into the tournament, which is something I’m definitely doing this time. This is my last year of seniors so I definitely have experience with seniors. I have also played some of the best seniors there are and one of them who is competing for a stipend lives near enough to me that we meet at cups sometimes and I beat him two weekends ago. My problem is that testing is hard since my closest league is 45 minutes away and I can only go for point tournaments and no one plays at my school and I don’t have a very stacked PTCGO account so I have to create rogue decks that I would never play in a tournament. I test against myself most of the time but I just wish I had someone to test with.

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