Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

[PMJ]

Guess that makes sense. Never done that before because usually ties mean no lynch. That's why parity is usually enough for a scum victory.

 

[Jabberwock]

This explanation made a lot of sense. Since there are people in different timezone like me.

Since it looks like Jabber is going to come up and defend himself anymore. Maybe he don't want to slip any information that we could use to find the last scum (Since based on the situation there is probably 2 more living atm)
##VOTE: Jabberwock

What is the case on me? Just that I pushed the mord lynch? If we weren't in MYLO that'd be fine, but you gotta be grasping at a little more than straws here.

 

[PMJ]

How about the fact that your entire omgus case against me was the weakest argument in mafia history, or Robin's argument that you're a dirty liar? There's no one except Nick and me who could possibly be scum other than you and everyone believes me over you, especially in light of your interaction with mord before he died, and Robin's night action. You're a stronger lynch than Nick which is why you're up first.

 

[Yog]

##Vote: Jabber

Ugh, scum team could well be Robin & Nick. But at this rate I'll be happy to see the game over.

 

[PMJ]

At this point I don't even care. If Samwise wasn't modkilled I don't think I ever would have pushed for his lynch so I guess it's a good thing he was. But then I woulda just been pissed later instead of earlier, so.

 

[PMJ]

If it's not gg, buy your protection. Scum basically has to kill Robin or they won't lynch anyone tomorrow.

 

[PMJ]

Nick is my vote for last scum.

 

[Yog]

Pretty sure it's gamefreeze since my post :x

 

[Jabberwock]

##vote: tapu lele

Are you guys seriously entertaining the fact that Lele could be town? You guys are getting played hard. The longer you leave the worst Tapu alive, the longer he can try to convince you not to lynch him. Of course he's going to claim it wasn't his role, he has no choice but to.

Don't wait. We have all of day 3 to discuss the day 3 lynch, as was said. Turbo this confo scum and fos to anyone who says otherwise. Massive fos to bb regardless.

PMJ's first relevant post of the game; comes in immediately with super strong tunnel-style rhetoric. At a stage in the game where everyone's kinda iffy about the Lele reveal, PMJ's the voice of decision, solidifying the position that the hosts should just be taken at their word.

But here's the thing. There was zero chance of Lele not getting lynched. Yeah there was a fair amount of "man it'd really suck if Lele were town", but Lele already had 7 votes on him by the time PMJ came in, and nobody else was even close [reference this vote count]. This post of PMJ's managed to establish him as an aggressive player and gained him a tiny bit of towncred from Lele's flip, all without actually losing anything –– as Lele was doomed anyway.

When Tapu Lele flips scum, bbninjas dies day 3. He is 100% scum alongside Tapu Lele. Celever can die day 4.

bbninjas and Celever both outed themselves as scum. It's really quite convenient.

There's a huge contradiction in reasoning in these posts, and there are waaaaayyyy more posts like them scattered throughout D3. PMJ is ostensibly certain that bb and Celever are both scum (and yes he's equally certain of both; "scum of the earth" comes to mind as a phrase he used to describe each of them separately), and yet every single time he insists on bb being lynched first. Why is this? So that he can build up towncred before leading a lynch on Cel.

Leading a lynch on bb solidifies his position in the eyes of the town for several Days to come –– we've seen the effects of that; nobody has yet seriously considered PMJ as a lynch. On the other hand, if he goes after Cel first, his position is much shakier, and he might not even be able to carry out the bb wagon that earns him all this towncred in the first place.

http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/mafia-li-senate-subterfuge-night-6-start.147232/page-26

^That's not actually a quote; just for organization purposes. The exchange at the top of the linked page is very very telling. We didn't think too much of it at the time, because PMJ was anti-Cel and we had no reason to doubt him, plus Cel was being uncooperative. Now, though, we know that Cel was town and Samwise was scum, and it puts the whole conversation in a totally different light:

PMJ: Explain why you think bb is a worse lynch.
Cel: Explain why you think bb's a better one.
Sam: Stop trying to avoid PMJ's question.

I'm not even exaggerating. That's literally verbatim.

As expected, the """""case""""" on Samwise is a total crock and a complete fabrication crafted by a panicking scum team because I pegged both Celever and bbninjas as scum and I won't rest until they're both six feet under.

Oh goody, more buddying with Samwise.

Nick, Gekki, Mirdo are a few examples. When they do post its not super helpful and they're barely active (one could accuse me of the same thing) (no offense anybody).

If we lynch a few of them we're bound to catch a scum sooner or later.

Not related to PMJ but: Given this post, Nick is far less likely to be scum.

Agreed. In fact I think PMJ has done more to incriminate himself than BB has. I find it odd that PMJ is pushing so hard for BB's lynch, he was made multiple large posts on BB and he hasn't really done much else. It isn't helpful, and if we lynch PMJ or BB it gives us the most information anyone else would be a shot in the dark. We lynch BB he flips town or we get lucky and he flips scum it gives us very little information (other than all he's done is pushed BB's lynch) . However, if we lynch PMJ and he flips scum than it clears BB and gives us some good information. If he flips town than BB is probably scum.

##UNVERB
##VERB: PMJ

This is almost definitely the result of PMJ going "dude vote me" in the scum chat; it would've come waaayyyy earlier if it was Samwise acting on his own.

Samwise: Especially with his complete about-face and vote for me he looks more and more like actually good new town who is trying to contribute by posting reads and asking questions. His logic is all over the place and reads like someone who wants to help but doesn't know how best to do that. In the same post you linked he also voted for Celever, and one scum trying to save a mod-confirmed scum by voting for a third scum is a bit too convoluted even for me.

C'mon.

No. bbninjas is the only real lynch candidate today. The only reason I have any votes on me at all is because Samwise's double vote is enabling Celever and bb to put me in the lead. Once he unvotes, bb will have no chance, unless more people vote for bb and put the final nail in this scum's coffin.

Celever is still definitely scum and discussing his lynch without bb clogging up the thread with his lies will be much easier.

Cel was "scum of the earth"; "prince of darkness"; and you never actually gave a reason why bb needed to be lynched before him. It was just to gain you towncred.

##VOTE: NICK

He's been super suspicous and is setting off my my scum alarm the entire game. I dont have enough time to make a case on him but I just kinda have a feeling about him.

More reason to believe Nick is town.

Just realized I shot that post off without finishing my thoughts on Samwise. That's what I get for jumping around and not checking properly. I don't remember exactly what I was going to say but the point I was getting at with his vote on Nick was that it shows he is trying to go in on his reads but doesn't know how to do it well and doesn't have the aid of the scum team to help him gather his thoughts. He's still solid town to me.

Okay, so I'll admit that I townread Samwise for a lot of the game, too, but for me I kept going back and forth and in the end couldn't really say anything more than neutral for him. He did some scummy stuff but most of the time I was willing to chalk it up to him being new. But you have literally never read him as anything but town. How's that?

That post is very suspicious to me.

This is the closest either PMJ or Robin ever came to pursuing the other. Curious, considering PMJ's vote has been around the rest of the block at least twice over now.

Drac's assessment of mord matches the doubts I was feeling when I was looking into mord's posts. I town read Drac, so I'll back him up on this.

Starts wavering off the mord wagon before mord is actually lynched, and this post is about all the justification he ever gives for it. This is very very very out of character –– when PMJ thinks he's found scum, by his own admission, he doesn't rest until they're lynched. I gotta say, though, you managed it really well. Stepping away from the mislynch well in advance, so nobody even realized the scumtell? Well played.

Here's the post I said was suspicious and why. The reasons Robin listed for voting for mord are bullshit and completely unrelated to my case on him. First, he says that what happened in the qt isn't the only point we have against mord, as if that's literally the entire reason he was up for a lynch. It wasn't. No one even thought about lynching mord until I posted my scum read and Jabberwock picked it up and ran with it.

Abstaining from voting is never a valid reason to lynch anyone. You don't know why a person isn't voting. At worst it's an annoyance, definitely not a scumtell. And at this point in the game we all know that none of the scum knew Tapu Lele was scum during day one, so any defense of him during day one is forgivable. Why is Robin trying to fault mord for that? It sounds like he's just trying to associate mord with known scum for the sake of associating them, which (in light of Robin's slip and his last sentence in this quote) highly suggests mord is town.

Finally, Robin goes to bat for Jabber with just a dash of AtE. Jabber actually isn't risking anything, as I explained in a previous post. Lynching mord can of course clear Jabberwock, but only if mord flips scum. If mord flips town then Jabber just says "oh well, guess we were both town after all" and it's just another mislynch. Which is, of course, the entire point.

Nvm, found one more instance of PMJ pressuring Robin. But ofc, it's only to link him with me. Possibly he wants to pull off one more bb-style gambit before the end of the game? Lynch Robin and ride the towncred to victory. Well, no matter. He's completely forgotten about it now.

How about the fact that your entire omgus case against me was the weakest argument in mafia history, or Robin's argument that you're a dirty liar? There's no one except Nick and me who could possibly be scum other than you and everyone believes me over you, especially in light of your interaction with mord before he died, and Robin's night action. You're a stronger lynch than Nick which is why you're up first.

Now why on earth is Robin out of the question? You and Robin are unequivocally the last two scum, as everybody else can be ruled out for one thing or another. It boggles my mind that you've forgotten that your scumbuddy isn't clear.

 

[Jabberwock]

Pretty sure it's gamefreeze since my post :x

...

GG PMJ and Robin.

 

[Nick Tornell]

I'm here. I didn't have internet access until now. Sorry about that. Jabber is who to go for at this rate after reading literally everything that happened. I'll wait for the vote though to meet activity quota.

 

[PMJ]

PMJ's first relevant post of the game; comes in immediately with super strong tunnel-style rhetoric. At a stage in the game where everyone's kinda iffy about the Lele reveal, PMJ's the voice of decision, solidifying the position that the hosts should just be taken at their word.

I know, right? It's such a crazy idea, trusting the hosts at their word. We should all doubt everything the hosts say because reasons.

But here's the thing. There was zero chance of Lele not getting lynched. Yeah there was a fair amount of "man it'd really suck if Lele were town", but Lele already had 7 votes on him by the time PMJ came in, and nobody else was even close [reference this vote count]. This post of PMJ's managed to establish him as an aggressive player and gained him a tiny bit of towncred from Lele's flip, all without actually losing anything –– as Lele was doomed anyway.

If you wanna give me town cred for being on the wagon of host-confirmed scum then that's your business. When I posted I hadn't read the thread at all, just a few recent posts where people were questioning Lele's lynch, which is highly suspicious.

There's a huge contradiction in reasoning in these posts, and there are waaaaayyyy more posts like them scattered throughout D3. PMJ is ostensibly certain that bb and Celever are both scum (and yes he's equally certain of both; "scum of the earth" comes to mind as a phrase he used to describe each of them separately), and yet every single time he insists on bb being lynched first. Why is this? So that he can build up towncred before leading a lynch on Cel.

The flaw in this argument is simple, but major. Hardly anyone gave me town cred for the bb lynch, since Celever, among others, claimed that it was a bus, a theory that was tossed around for the rest of the game. So there was not much gained in that regard.

I stayed on bb's lynch the same reason I stayed on mord despite my belief that scattered mind was also scum.

Leading a lynch on bb solidifies his position in the eyes of the town for several Days to come –– we've seen the effects of that; nobody has yet seriously considered PMJ as a lynch. On the other hand, if he goes after Cel first, his position is much shakier, and he might not even be able to carry out the bb wagon that earns him all this towncred in the first place.

Celever tried lynching me day 3, and no one has seriously considered me as a lynch yet because there is no reason to. All I've done this entire game is scumhunt; all my cases have been rock solid but kept getting upended by surprise town confirmations. As I said way back in the beginning, I'm not afraid to guess wrong. I'll defend every vote, every read, every case because I have nothing to fear no matter what my alignment is. I can still win while dead, so when I do die, everyone else can see my thoughts were honest and have weight.

^That's not actually a quote; just for organization purposes. The exchange at the top of the linked page is very very telling. We didn't think too much of it at the time, because PMJ was anti-Cel and we had no reason to doubt him, plus Cel was being uncooperative. Now, though, we know that Cel was town and Samwise was scum, and it puts the whole conversation in a totally different light:

PMJ: Explain why you think bb is a worse lynch.
Cel: Explain why you think bb's a better one.
Sam: Stop trying to avoid PMJ's question.

I'm not even exaggerating. That's literally verbatim.

This snippet you've quoted doesn't mean anything. You just said yourself Celever was being uncooperative. I asked Celever a simple question and instead of answering it, he gave me the runaround. He is trying to put the burden of proof on me when it is on him to prove that bb was a worse lynch than whoever it was he was going for. That's a scum move.

Using Samwise's lackluster posts as support for your argument shows everyone how weak your argument actually is.

Oh goody, more buddying with Samwise.

This isn't buddying, it's stating a fact. Celever's case on Samwise was objectively a joke and never would have gone anywhere even without me pushing bb's lynch. I never said or hinted that Samwise was town in this post. It could have been literally anyone else and I would have said the same thing.

Not related to PMJ but: Given this post, Nick is far less likely to be scum.

Flat out wrong.

This is almost definitely the result of PMJ going "dude vote me" in the scum chat; it would've come waaayyyy earlier if it was Samwise acting on his own.

What reason do I have to ask Samwise to vote for me, knowing that he has a double vote, instead of having him either support my lynch or vote for literally anyone else? I was almost lynched because of his vote. What do I gain from risking my own life like that? Explain your logic to me because I don't understand this at all.

C'mon.

Yes you posted my read good job thumbs up gold star

Cel was "scum of the earth"; "prince of darkness"; and you never actually gave a reason why bb needed to be lynched before him. It was just to gain you towncred.

Yes I did. Nice try.

More reason to believe Nick is town.

I've chosen to disregard most of Samwise's posts. He was either playing horribly or being coached and we can't find out which it was until the game is over.

Okay, so I'll admit that I townread Samwise for a lot of the game, too, but for me I kept going back and forth and in the end couldn't really say anything more than neutral for him. He did some scummy stuff but most of the time I was willing to chalk it up to him being new. But you have literally never read him as anything but town. How's that?

Did you even read my read of him, or did you just copy and paste it because I said he was town?

Starts wavering off the mord wagon before mord is actually lynched, and this post is about all the justification he ever gives for it. This is very very very out of character –– when PMJ thinks he's found scum, by his own admission, he doesn't rest until they're lynched.

Yes, this is true. But there is a glaring hole in your argument. I backed off mord because I was no longer 100% sure he was scum. Thanks for invalidating your own argument.

Nvm, found one more instance of PMJ pressuring Robin. But ofc, it's only to link him with me. Possibly he wants to pull off one more bb-style gambit before the end of the game? Lynch Robin and ride the towncred to victory. Well, no matter. He's completely forgotten about it now.

Cherry picking. His link to you was only one strike against him; way to miss everything else I posted.

I didn't forget, I dropped the case because Samwise was proven to have the role that bb was referencing. I was right that scum had it, but wrong about the circumstances.

Right now I think Robin is town. I want to think that because Robin is still pushing your lynch on this critical day. He just as easily not could have brought up this whole ability business and pushed a lynch on Nick or me with no one being any the wiser. I mean, I probably would have gone after you, but still. There's no logic in trying to get town cred when no one really thinks you're scum, and a single mislynch (when I'm still alive and a very simple lynch to try and push) would win you the game.

Now why on earth is Robin out of the question? You and Robin are unequivocally the last two scum, as everybody else can be ruled out for one thing or another. It boggles my mind that you've forgotten that your scumbuddy isn't clear.

Why do you believe you can be ruled out? Your certamen reward? It's been established that you could have lied about the reward you received - no one is doubting that you got a reward.

Explained above why I'm in Robin's corner for this.

 

[Nick Tornell]

More reason to believe Nick is town.

Not related to PMJ but: Given this post, Nick is far less likely to be scum.

To these, as PMJ said, just no. When it comes to that, I could have easily been scum and Sam could've been trying to coach me to stop acting the part in plain view.

Hardly anyone gave me town cred for the bb lynch,

I actually believe you as town after everything that's happened in the game up to this point. My one surprise is that you didn't try to push me earlier as I know your talent at making cases on people.

Right now I think Robin is town. I want to think that because Robin is still pushing your lynch on this critical day. He just as easily not could have brought up this whole ability business and pushed a lynch on Nick or me with no one being any the wiser.

I feel the same about Robin. This is even through the fact that he believes i, myself, am scum same as you, PMJ.
Point is, I'm not wise. I stuck myself into a scummy stile of play that could fool anyone. I'm sure NP could attest to that if he were playing as opposed to hosting but, it's just my nature.

 

[Jabberwock]

I know, right? It's such a crazy idea, trusting the hosts at their word. We should all doubt everything the hosts say because reasons.

If you wanna give me town cred for being on the wagon of host-confirmed scum then that's your business. When I posted I hadn't read the thread at all, just a few recent posts where people were questioning Lele's lynch, which is highly suspicious.

That's not the point at all; it's that you jumped on an issue that wasn't an issue in the slightest –– the possibility of Lele not being lynched –– and tried to use it to gain towncred. You say that being on a wagon of host-confirmed scum doesn't impart any towncred; I'd be inclined to disagree. It's one thing to casually drop a vote on Lele like any player might do; it's another thing entirely to come in guns all blazing and proclaim that anybody who's not as adamant as you is suss.

The flaw in this argument is simple, but major. Hardly anyone gave me town cred for the bb lynch, since Celever, among others, claimed that it was a bus, a theory that was tossed around for the rest of the game. So there was not much gained in that regard.

Nope but nice try. Yog's post here p much set the tone for Day 4 onward, and the only reason people still townread you now is because of the bb lynch.

Also, sidenote: Your argument itself is incredibly flawed. It doesn't matter what people did afterward; it matters what you were trying to get out of it when you posted it. Irrelevant here because you're also wrong, but worth noting for what little future we've still got in this game.

I stayed on bb's lynch the same reason I stayed on mord despite my belief that scattered mind was also scum.

This is a non-answer. You stayed on mord because you thought –– like everybody else –– that his lynch would clear me. You literally said that in this post. bb's lynch would clear nobody.

Celever tried lynching me day 3, and no one has seriously considered me as a lynch yet because there is no reason to.

There are plenty of reasons to.

• You pushed a flimsy case on bbninjas to the bitter end (yeah it was flimsy; I disagreed with it then and I still do now) in an effort to gain towncred.
• You tunneled hardcore throughout D3 and D4, even openly admitting that you were ignoring other cases in favor of those you championed.
• You decided to lynch bb before Cel, in a move that would serve to gain you more towncred than the other way around.
• You wavered on the mord lynch, distancing yourself from it enough before it happened that you could get away with saying "I never really thought he was scum anyway".
• You townread Samwise –– now confirmed scum –– all game.
• Even more damning than that, Samwise buddied hard with you at the beginning of D3 before doing an inexplicable about-face when you told him in the scumchat to chill out.
• You assume that Robin is not a viable lynch. I don't care if you townread him; if he hasn't been cleared he should still show up in your list of possible scum teams.

This snippet you've quoted doesn't mean anything. You just said yourself Celever was being uncooperative. I asked Celever a simple question and instead of answering it, he gave me the runaround. He is trying to put the burden of proof on me when it is on him to prove that bb was a worse lynch than whoever it was he was going for. That's a scum move.

You completely missed the point of that snippet I quoted, then.

Using Samwise's lackluster posts as support for your argument shows everyone how weak your argument actually is.

Samwise's posts aren't support; they're literally the argument, which you just strawmanned. The fact that, given a standoff position between you and Celever and no reason to think either of you was more town than the other, Samwise immediately took your side. Cel commented on it at the time; mord brought it up again later. It's obvious buddying, and you keep dancing around it.

This isn't buddying, it's stating a fact. Celever's case on Samwise was objectively a joke and never would have gone anywhere even without me pushing bb's lynch. I never said or hinted that Samwise was town in this post. It could have been literally anyone else and I would have said the same thing.

Your use of "as expected" shows you went into the case with the mentality that Samwise couldn't be guilty of it, which would be a scumtell.

Flat out wrong.

You're underestimating the stock we can put into voting patterns by new players who have been confirmed scum.

What reason do I have to ask Samwise to vote for me, knowing that he has a double vote, instead of having him either support my lynch or vote for literally anyone else? I was almost lynched because of his vote. What do I gain from risking my own life like that? Explain your logic to me because I don't understand this at all.

You weren't at risk; there was plenty of time left in the day for bb's lynch to be pushed forward. You were trying to get him to distance himself from you so the buddying wouldn't look so suss. Unfortunately the way it was executed was entirely without subtlety.

Yes you posted my read good job thumbs up gold star

It was a townread of Samwise because of his absurd about-face.

Yes I did. Nice try.

Link. I read the thread and could not find it.

I've chosen to disregard most of Samwise's posts. He was either playing horribly or being coached and we can't find out which it was until the game is over.

He is confirmed scum. His posts are therefore incredibly important because his play and voting patterns can reveal the alignment of those he interacted with/voted for. Why on earth would you disregard them?

Did you even read my read of him, or did you just copy and paste it because I said he was town?

Yeah ofc I read it. Your reads of Samwise, without exception, are "he's done scummy stuff but oh well that's new town for ya".

Yes, this is true. But there is a glaring hole in your argument. I backed off mord because I was no longer 100% sure he was scum. Thanks for invalidating your own argument.

I thought you never commit to a lynch in the first place unless you're 100% sure they're scum.

Cherry picking. His link to you was only one strike against him; way to miss everything else I posted.

I didn't forget, I dropped the case because Samwise was proven to have the role that bb was referencing. I was right that scum had it, but wrong about the circumstances.

If there were so many points against him, then why would you drop the case just because one of them was wrong?

Right now I think Robin is town. I want to think that because Robin is still pushing your lynch on this critical day. He just as easily not could have brought up this whole ability business and pushed a lynch on Nick or me with no one being any the wiser. I mean, I probably would have gone after you, but still.

On the other hand, now that he has brought up the whole ability business, everyone's taking him entirely at his word and automatically assuming that I must be scum. Convenient how that worked out for him.

There's no logic in trying to get town cred when no one really thinks you're scum, and a single mislynch (when I'm still alive and a very simple lynch to try and push) would win you the game.

Earlier in this post you assert that you got barely any towncred from bb's lynch because people actively considered that it might have been staged, and now you claim that nobody really thinks you're scum? You can't have that both ways.

Why do you believe you can be ruled out? Your certamen reward? It's been established that you could have lied about the reward you received - no one is doubting that you got a reward.

I meant FMPOV you and Robin are unequivocally scum. Though given the fact that the only points against me seem to be the mord mislynch and Robin's fake result, I'm astounded I'm still being considered next to the two of you.

 

[Nick Tornell]

OK, jabber, nice attempt at last minute defense but, it won't work. There are already what, four votes on you at this point. I can hammer right now but, I'd rather wait and watch. This is post 3 for me. Just gonna say this for now:

 

[GM DracLord]

OK, jabber, nice attempt at last minute defense but, it won't work. There are already what, four votes on you at this point. I can hammer right now but, I'd rather wait and watch. This is post 3 for me. Just gonna say this for now:

Actually, yog already hammered jabber iirc

 

[Yog]

##UNVOTE

VOTE: NICK

Pretty sure the hammer already dropped (by me, no less), but the facts that everyone is still atlking makes me doubt it.

 

[Jabberwock]

OK, jabber, nice attempt at last minute defense but, it won't work.

I'm not defending. I'm telling you why PMJ and Robin are scum. I literally cannot stress enough how important it is to actually read what other players post.

##UNVOTE

VOTE: NICK

Pretty sure the hammer already dropped (by me, no less), but the facts that everyone is still atlking makes me doubt it.

I appreciate the sentiment but unless there's something weird going on with vote weights I believe I'm dead. Here's hoping PMJ and Robin screw up the nightkill. ^.^

 

[Nick Tornell]

Back to jabber, if PMJ and Robin are scum, then that really means that's it's me and pmj. At least in my mind. With that vote count is this:
Jabber-(3):Robin, PMJ, Drac
PMJ-(1):Jabber
Nick-(1):Yog
If this is kept up, then I feel some untrustworthy stuff is going on and imma die sometime soon.

 

[Jabberwock]

Back to jabber, if PMJ and Robin are scum, then that really means that's it's me and pmj. At least in my mind.

Please try to rephrase that sentence.