Is RNGing Ethical?

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SuperMatt142

aka @FossilJockeyMG
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I went to the TCG/VG Regionals this past weekend, and I did ok (5/3), but two of my losses were people with teams of all shinies which was kind of suspicious. I asked my first all shiny competitor how they got so many and they informed me of a weird game manipulation techinque called RNGing.

Now, some of you may have heard of this but I have not as I have no desire to manipulate my games. All of the methods I use (such as EVing or Chaining in 4th Gen) are things Nintendo has given the ok on by press release or in a strategy guide. Apparently, it involves using a calculator to generate some random numbers (somehow corresponding to a date) and then manipulating the DS calendar to a certain date where conditions are favorable to get perfect IV pokemon that are shiny through breeding. No other legit method I've heard of can produce such astonding results (including Masuda and Chaining methods). It also apparently takes tremendously less time than breeding/catching pokemon traditionally. It doesn't technically use an outside device to edit data, but at some point a device would have had to have been used to rip the source code from the cartridge thus discovering this technique.

I asked a judge is if was legit between rounds, and he said no. Well, I had the next of my competitors who said he RNG's hack checked, but his game came out clean... and it kinda ticked him off at me. He basically told me I was a poor sport and I should report to Smogon asap to learn how to be a real competitor. He, and other RNGer's I talked to later, stressed that thier method was legit for tourney play. Dude had a serious chip on his shoulder about it, I was just going off I'd been told earlier.

Anyway, long story short... it seems even the judges don't know if it should be consider legit or not so I pose this question....

Is the abuse of RNG to create teams of perfect IV shiny pokemon unethical or should it just be accepted as part of the competitve environment?

Discuss.
 
Not all judges are competitive experts. RNG abuse is not the same as hacking. It will always be legal.
 
You aren't modifying the game cartridge at all. Actual hacking would be like using an Action Replay to alter IVs, nature, etc.

There isn't enough competitive experts that are judges. Midwest Regionals was very good because it had both Marriland and myself. Not all regionals have that luxury.
 
King Arceus said:
You aren't modifying the game cartridge at all. Actual hacking would be like using an Action Replay to alter IVs, nature, etc.

There isn't enough competitive experts that are judges. Midwest Regionals was very good because it had both Marriland and myself. Not all regionals have that luxury.

So it doesn't make it easier to get pokemon that would normally be difficult to obtain, statistically speaking?
 
You can use RNG to get Pokemon with better stats easier, but you still have to obtain them through normal means. You aren't using a code that always gives 31 in IVs across the board.
 
It depends on the individual, really.

But since it doesn't add or modify anything in-game, It is tourney legal.
 
The capability to RNG is already coded into the game. You're not manipulating it. Sure it gives them an advantage, but you can do it, too. EV training gives people advantages, too. The only difference is that it's officially recognized. It's not declared by GF to be illegal, AFAIK. You're not editing the game's coding or hacking into it, so as far as I'm concerned, it's plenty ethical.
 
Ok,that's fine. I just didn't know what this was.. and I've apparently been doing it wrong when it comes to raising guys. I work my butt off to breed guys that are "relatively superior" and if I'm super lucky "outstanding"... but I've never bred a shiny pokemon because I thought it was luck. Now that I understand one can do this I realise it's really not...

As someone who has played a long time, but doesn't necessarily go around dissecting code I kinda feel like it's a big middle finger in my face when someone has a better change of breeding perfect IV shinies than me simply because they are reaping the benefits of someone elses ability to rip code. That being said, I guess that's just something I'll have to accept because I'm not going to RNG. Now, don't take this as me being contrary to you guys. I see your point of view. No hard feelings or anything. To me (which is my opinion mind you) it takes away a bit of the luck factor that is part of the game. If it was meant for everyone to be able to methodically get perfect IV'd shiny pokemon, then why make it so difficult to do it without use of calendar editting or what have you?
 
From Harry Potter:
Lord Voldemort said:
There is only power and those too weak to seek it.

If you aren't going to RNG, good luck in winning Premier Events. There are times when having a specific IV is necessary. Speed, being the most important one most of the time.
 
King Arceus said:
From Harry Potter:

Lord Voldemort Wrote:There is only power and those too weak to seek it.

If you aren't going to RNG, good luck in winning Premier Events. There are times when having a specific IV is necessary. Speed, being the most important one most of the time.

I can breed for 2 - 3 max IVs pretty easy by chain breeding and using power items (per the Nintendo strategy guide) so that's not a big deal. I've been to Nationals before with non-RNG'd pokemon so it is possible.

I will say, it's a tad odd that you defend your ethics stance by quoting a villain.
 
Cinesra and I (and a bit of Zorua) chatted about RNGing. This is what we came up with.

[6:44:32 PM] Yoshi: do you know if Pokegen is illegal for VGC
[6:44:56 PM] Cinesra: isn't that the computer program that generates AR codes?
[6:45:04 PM] Yoshi: yes
[6:45:13 PM] Cinesra: it's only illegal if you get caught
[6:45:16 PM] Yoshi: oh
[6:45:18 PM] Zorua: ^^^
[6:45:18 PM] Cinesra: if you're good at hacking
[6:45:20 PM] Zorua: but it is illegal
[6:45:24 PM] Yoshi: well
[6:45:28 PM] Cinesra: you'll know how to get past their checks
[6:45:29 PM] Yoshi: I guess I could RNG
[6:45:32 PM] Yoshi: which is legal right
[6:45:37 PM] Zorua: yup
[6:45:42 PM] Cinesra: iirc, it's like checking your secret id
[6:45:50 PM] Cinesra: that's ID, not Freud's id
[6:45:50 PM] Yoshi: I might have to ask around for a Cresselia
[6:46:05 PM] Zorua: I think I might have one on my Black
[6:46:16 PM] Yoshi: but is there a good guide out there on how to RNG
[6:46:22 PM] Yoshi: for legendaries like Cress and such
[6:46:29 PM] Cinesra: I'm sure there's a good guide on how to successfully hack, too
[6:46:44 PM] Yoshi: I don't want to hack
[6:46:50 PM] Cinesra: that's what pokegen is
[6:47:02 PM] Yoshi: well I don't want to Pokegen if this is the case XP
[6:47:04 PM] Yoshi: but uh
[6:47:06 PM] Cinesra: iirc, that's THE hacking software
[6:47:26 PM] Yoshi: well I can just go for good natures and EV train appropriately
[6:47:42 PM] Yoshi: IVs don't matter much to me
[6:48:00 PM] Yoshi: unless a Gible has 1-10 IVs in Attack/Speed
[6:48:04 PM] Yoshi: then it is bothersome
[6:50:30 PM] Cinesra: I wouldn't be able to do it without knowing I have perfect IVs in every stat that matters
[6:51:01 PM | Edited 6:51:23 PM] Cinesra: so I could have like 6 ATK IVs on a Jolteon and not care
[6:51:33 PM] Cinesra: also, I think the minimum is 0 ivs
[6:51:58 PM] Yoshi: well I mean
[6:52:06 PM] Yoshi: if it had 0 I would laugh and trash it
[6:52:57 PM] Yoshi: [6:50 PM] Cinesra:
<<< I wouldn't be able to do it without knowing I have perfect IVs in every stat that matters>>> so in other words, you're saying you only want good IVs in stats that matter, right?
[6:53:14 PM] Yoshi: like SpA is irrelevant on Garchomp
[6:53:22 PM] Cinesra: right
[6:53:24 PM] Cinesra: but to me
[6:53:29 PM] Cinesra: defenses on an infernape matter
[6:53:39 PM] Cinesra: hell I'd want a flawless mixnape or nada
[6:53:40 PM] Yoshi: well yeah
[6:53:46 PM] Yoshi: but
[6:53:53 PM] Yoshi: Attack and Speed are more important
[6:54:00 PM] Cinesra: and SPA on a Jellicent would matter
[6:54:04 PM] Cinesra: more important yes
[6:54:14 PM] Cinesra: but it would bother me
[6:54:28 PM] Yoshi: so would you RNG for a Chimchar?
[6:54:56 PM] Cinesra: if I knew how to and felt like taking the time to do it
[6:55:03 PM] Cinesra: plus shiny infernape is cool
[6:58:23 PM] Cinesra: if I wanted to rng
[6:58:29 PM] Cinesra: I'd do it instead of hacking
[6:58:38 PM] Cinesra: I'd only hack if I was too lazy to rng
[6:58:57 PM] Cinesra: ex: scizor for shiny, slowbro or anything with Hidden Power for IVs, and LEGENDARIES
[7:00:20 PM] Yoshi: you would hack for legends?
[7:00:41 PM] Cinesra: the ones that are available to me
[7:00:46 PM] Cinesra: wait
[7:00:47 PM] Cinesra: yeah
[7:00:49 PM] Cinesra: all
[7:00:58 PM | Edited 7:07:21 PM] Cinesra: I'd change the OT for past gen mons
[7:01:02 PM] Cinesra: I'm not stupid

So yeah, if there was a good guide out there that taught me how to RNG in B/W, I would do it for sure. However, I feel it is pointless to have 31 IVs in SpA on a Garchomp, which is why I only IV train my Pokemon in the stats it needs the most. But I've never been to a premier event, so my experience is irrelevant.
 
SuperMatt142 said:
Ok,that's fine. I just didn't know what this was.. and I've apparently been doing it wrong when it comes to raising guys. I work my butt off to breed guys that are "relatively superior" and if I'm super lucky "outstanding"... but I've never bred a shiny pokemon because I thought it was luck. Now that I understand one can do this I realise it's really not...

As someone who has played a long time, but doesn't necessarily go around dissecting code I kinda feel like it's a big middle finger in my face when someone has a better chanCe of breeding perfect IV shinies than me simply because they are reaping the benefits of someone elses ability to rip code. That being said, I guess that's just something I'll have to accept because I'm not going to RNG. Now, don't take this as me being contrary to you guys. I see your point of view. No hard feelings or anything. To me (which is my opinion mind you) it takes away a bit of the luck factor that is part of the game. If it was meant for everyone to be able to methodically get perfect IV'd shiny pokemon, then why make it so difficult to do it without use of calendar editting or what have you?

Except you have just as much of a chanCe as everybody else. The only thing stopping you from RNGing is yourself. If you'd rather take the time to train your teams, then that's your choice, others choose to make the task less tedious and luck-based.
 
SuperMatt142 said:
Is the abuse of RNG to create teams of perfect IV shiny pokemon unethical or should it just be accepted as part of the competitve environment?

I've never had qualms about it. I don't feel it's 100% ethical, but I do feel that it should be accepted. It's a time-saver. An obscure, non-cheating time-saver. It's not like the Mario Kart 7 exploit that's ridiculously unfair. It's something that let's a person's time be used in less tedious ways. However, I'm against shiny abuse for the purpose of having a team full of shinies. One or two is fine, but six makes a person look... snotty.

Cinesra said:
EV training gives people advantages, too. The only difference is that it's officially recognized.

That's debatable, in my opinion. Sure, it's in Prima guides. But Prima guides aren't a good source for official confirmation. Writers that write guides for a living are given a bunch of information, guidelines on what not to include (unreleased Pokemon) and on what to do (accented e in Pokemon), and a pat on the back. After they finish, a check is done to make sure the guidelines were followed fairly well. And then the guide is published. While licensed, the guides aren't official; they are a third-party accessory. This is why Nintendo never advertises, where as they did with their Nintendo Power guides that never included EVs. This is all speculation, and maybe you're talking about some other official confirmation.

SuperMatt142 said:
If it was meant for everyone to be able to methodically get perfect IV'd shiny pokemon, then why make it so difficult to do it without use of calendar editting or what have you?

You're right here. But this also applies to EVs. It's meant for a person to get whatever Pokemon they want and to train it on a mess of Pokemon that give a mess of EVs. Never any of this precise calculating.


For what's it's worth, shiny abuse can't be done without an AR at some point, though it's usually on a game not being entered into a tournament. Also, I speculate that RNG abuse will be much, much harder in sixth gen. Game Freak has tried twice now to both make things more random, and things less abuseable. DPP added the calendar. BW added the C-Gear. Anything on 3DS could add seeds for RNGs of many aspects of the game that would be obtained from SpotPass or a connection to the GTS. Maybe even cook in some seed obtaining when trading, even locally. Granted, it could all still be abused somehow, possibly.
 
Valid point except for the EV thing. The Offical PUSA certified strategy guide for Platinum (page 186) outlines EV training, using pokerus and power items, and even tells you which pokemon are worth each Stat (like Gastly for Sp. Atk).

CCI04182012_00000.jpg


The Yoshi said:
Cinesra and I (and a bit of Zorua) chatted about RNGing. This is what we came up with.

[6:44:32 PM] Yoshi: do you know if Pokegen is illegal for VGC
[6:44:56 PM] Cinesra: isn't that the computer program that generates AR codes?
[6:45:04 PM] Yoshi: yes
[6:45:13 PM] Cinesra: it's only illegal if you get caught
[6:45:16 PM] Yoshi: oh
[6:45:18 PM] Zorua: ^^^
[6:45:18 PM] Cinesra: if you're good at hacking
[6:45:20 PM] Zorua: but it is illegal
[6:45:24 PM] Yoshi: well
[6:45:28 PM] Cinesra: you'll know how to get past their checks
[6:45:29 PM] Yoshi: I guess I could RNG
[6:45:32 PM] Yoshi: which is legal right
[6:45:37 PM] Zorua: yup
[6:45:42 PM] Cinesra: iirc, it's like checking your secret id
[6:45:50 PM] Cinesra: that's ID, not Freud's id
[6:45:50 PM] Yoshi: I might have to ask around for a Cresselia
[6:46:05 PM] Zorua: I think I might have one on my Black
[6:46:16 PM] Yoshi: but is there a good guide out there on how to RNG
[6:46:22 PM] Yoshi: for legendaries like Cress and such
[6:46:29 PM] Cinesra: I'm sure there's a good guide on how to successfully hack, too
[6:46:44 PM] Yoshi: I don't want to hack
[6:46:50 PM] Cinesra: that's what pokegen is
[6:47:02 PM] Yoshi: well I don't want to Pokegen if this is the case XP
[6:47:04 PM] Yoshi: but uh
[6:47:06 PM] Cinesra: iirc, that's THE hacking software
[6:47:26 PM] Yoshi: well I can just go for good natures and EV train appropriately
[6:47:42 PM] Yoshi: IVs don't matter much to me
[6:48:00 PM] Yoshi: unless a Gible has 1-10 IVs in Attack/Speed
[6:48:04 PM] Yoshi: then it is bothersome
[6:50:30 PM] Cinesra: I wouldn't be able to do it without knowing I have perfect IVs in every stat that matters
[6:51:01 PM | Edited 6:51:23 PM] Cinesra: so I could have like 6 ATK IVs on a Jolteon and not care
[6:51:33 PM] Cinesra: also, I think the minimum is 0 ivs
[6:51:58 PM] Yoshi: well I mean
[6:52:06 PM] Yoshi: if it had 0 I would laugh and trash it
[6:52:57 PM] Yoshi: [6:50 PM] Cinesra:
<<< I wouldn't be able to do it without knowing I have perfect IVs in every stat that matters>>> so in other words, you're saying you only want good IVs in stats that matter, right?
[6:53:14 PM] Yoshi: like SpA is irrelevant on Garchomp
[6:53:22 PM] Cinesra: right
[6:53:24 PM] Cinesra: but to me
[6:53:29 PM] Cinesra: defenses on an infernape matter
[6:53:39 PM] Cinesra: hell I'd want a flawless mixnape or nada
[6:53:40 PM] Yoshi: well yeah
[6:53:46 PM] Yoshi: but
[6:53:53 PM] Yoshi: Attack and Speed are more important
[6:54:00 PM] Cinesra: and SPA on a Jellicent would matter
[6:54:04 PM] Cinesra: more important yes
[6:54:14 PM] Cinesra: but it would bother me
[6:54:28 PM] Yoshi: so would you RNG for a Chimchar?
[6:54:56 PM] Cinesra: if I knew how to and felt like taking the time to do it
[6:55:03 PM] Cinesra: plus shiny infernape is cool
[6:58:23 PM] Cinesra: if I wanted to rng
[6:58:29 PM] Cinesra: I'd do it instead of hacking
[6:58:38 PM] Cinesra: I'd only hack if I was too lazy to rng
[6:58:57 PM] Cinesra: ex: scizor for shiny, slowbro or anything with Hidden Power for IVs, and LEGENDARIES
[7:00:20 PM] Yoshi: you would hack for legends?
[7:00:41 PM] Cinesra: the ones that are available to me
[7:00:46 PM] Cinesra: wait
[7:00:47 PM] Cinesra: yeah
[7:00:49 PM] Cinesra: all
[7:00:58 PM | Edited 7:07:21 PM] Cinesra: I'd change the OT for past gen mons
[7:01:02 PM] Cinesra: I'm not stupid

So yeah, if there was a good guide out there that taught me how to RNG in B/W, I would do it for sure. However, I feel it is pointless to have 31 IVs in SpA on a Garchomp, which is why I only IV train my Pokemon in the stats it needs the most. But I've never been to a premier event, so my experience is irrelevant.

"Cinesra: it's only illegal if you get caught"

Ahh. That sounds legit. Thanks for clearing that up. :(
 
SuperMatt142 said:
Valid point except for the EV thing. The Offical PUSA certified strategy guide for Platinum (page 186) outlines EV training, using pokerus and power items, and even tells you which pokemon are worth each Stat (like Gastly for Sp. Atk).

I own the guide, and have seen it. This is my point. It's merely certified, not made by. Older guides were made by Nintendo Power, which was owned by Nintendo at that point (come to think of it, selling to Future US is what stopped these guides :(). Prima is a third-party. Thus, standards need to be followed, but riskier stuff can get in.

I'd think EV training was in the Prima DP guide as well. I can almost swear that Pokerus was in the official Nintendo Power Emerald or DP guide, and was only said to promote growth. Nothing about EVs.

To show the difference between a Prima and Nintendo Power guide:

61ugR5p33WL._SS500_.jpg


616XvQLcltL._SS500_.jpg


The Prima guide has a seal like licensed third-party products, but the Nintendo Power guide has a Nintendo logo because it's a Nintendo product.
 
I bought the scenario guide to help with my dp walkthrough

worst buy ever. seriously, avoid prima products like death

RNGing is fine.
 
Chariblaze said:
I own the guide, and have seen it. This is my point. It's merely certified, not made by. Older guides were made by Nintendo Power, which was owned by Nintendo at that point (come to think of it, selling to Future US is what stopped these guides :(). Prima is a third-party. Thus, standards need to be followed, but riskier stuff can get in.

Wrong guides bro. I was referring to the platinum guide. It is published by Pokémon USA, so Prima is not involved at all either that or they are uncredited. If you want I can scan the publishing info too.

CCI04182012_00001.jpg
 
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