OU: Strategy Competitive Discussion of the Week - 17

RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week 8

I think priority is way better and in some cases broken(like gale wings) because it hits first even if the oponent uses a choice scarf,plus you dont have to be locked into 1 move. Also some pokes are only viable with priority like scizor,breloom,talonflame,etc... So in general priority is way better despite its moves being usually 40 base power
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week 8

I actually think that Choice Scarfed Pokemon are getting more attention in this metagame.
With so many fast Pokemon around such as Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie Lati@s and Thundorus ( The list goes on and on ) you need something to not just outspeed but also to lure your opponent to stay in.
I think that the metagame has adapted to all the priority users and almost every good team now days has something to deal with most of them ( Mega Venusaur/ Amoonguss for Azumarill, Landorus/ Heatran for Talonflame etc..) , while Choice Scarfed Pokemon are much harder to be predicted. Unless you have Frisk, you can't know for sure if the Potentially Choice Scarfed Pokemon that faces you actually holds Choice Scarf. You must choose between taking a risk and stay in or switch out and sac or take damage. On top of that some rare Choice Scarf users can surprise you while thinking the opponent is using a more standard set. ( Choice Scarf Gardevoir )
Still, Priority users has their own obvious advantages over Choice Scarf users. Mainly the fact that you are always safe with them to hit first even while facing a +6 speed Mega Altaria after DD Your Mega Scizor will be able to hit first and so in many times Priority users will be the only way your team will have to stop a major sweep. ( Other things can be Unaware user or Choice Scarf user depends on how much your opponent's speed got boosted)
IMO The most effective priority users of this metagame are those who can boost their attack thanks to their ability to force many switches- actually using the fact that their priority moves are predicted.
Priority users such as Belly Drum Azumarill which now can use Belly Drum and Knock Off thanks to the move tutors, SD Talonflame still as good as he was in XY meta and SD Mega Scizor which is very good in this metagame in general.
Overall, I think that both Priority users and Choice Scarf users have their own advantages in battle despite their same general job in the team to outspeed fast Pokemon and so it is not redundant but most of the times ( Depends on the team of course )- more effective to actually having both in your team.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week 8

Simply put, both sides have something to contribute. Of course, priority users are more consistent, but Choice Scarf users are a lot more better at surprise and disruption. You know that this Scizor has Bullet Punch; you do not know that this Keldeo has a Scarf. I'd say priority seems to be slightly better in the long run due to the Pokemon not being locked, however, this is largely an illusion. The power and unpredictability of Scarf almost totally make up for the lock or the chance to be outsped.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 9

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How do you go about starting most of your teams? Do you focus on a core or combination? A specific sweeper? A concept? Discuss whatever goes on in your mind and/or what you think works best.

Merged all of the CDotW threads now.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 9

Generally, I start with either a Pokemon or move, and base the entire team around that. For example, the first XY OU team I made started out with Land-Forme Shaymin. Then I just came up with ways to support that thing. Added Sash Lead Infernape, Healing Wish Latias, Wobbuffet. Then I playtested and revised that thing until consistency was achieved. Added DItto to combat setup sweepers on Wobbuffet. Added Substitute Mega Mawile to take advantage of encore'd status users from Wobbuffet.

In VGC on the other hand, I wanted a Trick Room team, so I chose some setters, some sweepers, and some support Pokemon. Cofagrigus sets, is bulky, has good typing and ability, counters Mega Kangaskhan, seems good as a Trick Room user. Mega Camerupt, new strong TR sweeper. Good typing (for the meta), movepool, but it has a glaring weakness to water. Okay, counters to water? Rage Powder Dry Skin Parasect and Rotom-Wash. Oh, but neither of those beats Ludicolo... add Scizor.

That's the general process. Idea to draft to playtesting to revision.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 9

Usually I start with one Pokemon I want to check out. With all the new Megas out there it just feels like candy land and I want to test them all :p
So after I chose the (Mega lol) Pokemon, I read about it. What can he do, what sets are being used by other players and of course what is its main threats.
Then I try to find the best partner or partners to go with it after deciding what kind of team I want ( Mainly offensive or balance )
After that, I start to think about what kind of mons I need according to their job in my team.
Its kind of funny but its like hiring people for a job only you are doing an "interview" to a Pokemon.
( " So, Dragonite.. why do you think you are the best wallbreaker for my team ?" )
I like to first think what I need, so I make a list of roles in my mind that I think my main Pokemon or core needs to have by their side : " I need a SR user, Defogger. Wallbreaker, Revenge Killer ..etc.." and then as I said, finding the best Pokemon for each role.
In the end the most important part comes when it's time to test the team. After a few battles I change my team according to what I found out during battle and there are a lot of things that you can find out only after battling.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 9

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What do you think about the difficulty of the various offensive playstyles? Is balanced really that balanced? Is HO really that mindless?

We've established stall as having a high skill curve, so offense gets a turn now.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 9

As a primarily offense player, I cannot allow people to believe that it's just mindless attack spamming. It is often degraded to such by players who cannot utilize it properly (this is especially true in Ubers), but to say that playing an offense team properly requires no skill is wrong. I haven't played stall myself, so I do not know how hard it is compared to offense, but I do know that correct use of offense requires thinking. As an offense player, your greatest tool is raw power, but it comes at the expense of defensive backbone. Your gameplay is limited in the sense that switches are harder and there are solid counters to each Pokemon you may use, and as such you are forced to improve your prediction skills and learn to take risks that would otherwise be unnecessary were you playing a stall team. Yes, you can break stuff easily, but your own stuff also breaks easily. You can't mindlessly fire a Choice Draco Meteor or send out a setup sweeper turn 1 and click Swords Dance. You need to carefully wear down those Pokemon that might stop your best sweepers and at the same time make sure that you are always at an advantage, always with the upper hand. For if a fully offensive team loses momentum and gets pressured, things become very difficult.

Balance is a different story altogether... from a completely logical viewpoint it sounds like the best playstyle, combining offense and defense. Balanced, however, is a broad term. Does a team with five attackers and a Chansey count as balanced? Is a bulky offense team balanced? And even if the team is truly "balanced", is that good enough? It is not a stall team, and therefore cannot employ the tricks and slow wearing down that they can, but it's also not heavily focused on offense so in the end it might lack in power.

I do not know how hard stall is to play. But I do know that there's much more to offensive teams than clicking an attack.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 9

I don't believe any playstyle can be called mindless. Competitive Pokemon relies a lot on your brainpower and until victory is assured in the last few turns, you're always thinking.

However, some playstyles are more mindless than others. Heavy offense is perhaps the most mindless because the game plan is so much more simpler when compared to balance and especially stall. The quicker you can wrap up a battle, the sooner you can get to that "brainless" stage in a match. Because offensive teams are able to wrap up battles easier, they hit that "brainless" stage sooner and I think that's why they get referred to as brainless teams.

Balance is probably the hardest playstyle imo because it wants to be everything but it can't be everything well enough.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 9

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What do you think about the viability and/or use of Rapid Spin versus Defog?

Defog: Latios, Latias, Zapdos, Empoleon, Scizor, Skarmory, Mandibuzz
Rapid Spin: Excadrill, Starmie, Tentacruel
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 10

It depends on the team, first and foremost, and how much you fear Ghosts vs Bisharp.
if you're running hazards on a Pokemon that doesn't have Defog itself (Skarmory) then you'd probably be best with Rapid Spin. Excadrill is probably the most common for the job, but if your team is looking pretty Water weak as is, Starmie would be my next choice (aside from AV Donphan, who is really my favorite spinner). But, these run into the age-old problem of being blocked by Ghosts, and Mega Sableye can make things a pain for most spinners.

Defog has its own set of problems, what with removing your own hazards and activating Defiant, either way potentially setting you further back then where you were with hazards up in the first place. Lati@s especially need to be wary of Bisharp, as they are hit for weakness, though other than that are fiarly good Defog users, being immune to most hazards themselves and not being SR weak.
Surprised to see Mandibuzz isn't listed, but she is my favorite Defog user, being a pretty good check to Bisharp and an all-around good physical wall (does have the SR weakness, but the bulk is there to take it). Skarmory is good too, and is really the only Pokemon I'd use the run Defog and hazards in the same team.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 10

Defog and Rapid spin have pretty much equal pros and cons
You need to see what pros and cons works better for your team.
But, There is a really big issue with those moves:
What matters after you got all the pros and cons, is what Pokemon is being used in what team
The reason why Rapid spin got really unpopular is not because Defog is much better but because there are so many defoggers and so less rapid spinners
In XY meta Excadrill was pretty much the only viable rapid spinner as Starmie was too weak with Aegislash and Greninja around
Now people are starting to notice Starmie again but still there are way more Defog users and the problem is not that Defog is better as I said, but the fact that a Pokemon is not being chosen for a team slot only because of its ability to get rid of hazards, It needs to do other things in order to make the team work. Latios is a great offensive Pokemon with the ability to nuke opponents with a Draco, Mandibuzz is a great wall that can bring a lot more utility with Toxic Whirlwind Knock Off and Foul Play, Latias can help the team with Healing Wish and is a very good offensive Pokemon on its own, Skarmory can use Defog and right after that lay its own hazards and serves as a great physical wall, Scizor is a great physical wall that can use Knock Off and priority BP and the list goes on with Zapdos, Empoleon Mew etc.. By the way, all of them can use Roost to recover damage after they took a hit for using Defog.

When you have half of the team ready and you are thinking :" OK my team needs something to remove hazards and also xxx..Who will be the best fitting option?" What are the odds you will find Starmie, Tenta or Excadrill as the best to go with over the plethora of Defoggers out there? Unless of course you are using 2 SR/Spikes users on your team or that your team really depends on these hazards to win or you actually finds Starmie for example to be very good option for another role- Not that many. And that is a big issue IMO - We need more viable Rapid spinners, way more.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 10

Reflect Type Starmie is my favorite spinner right now and I do believe that it's the best one. Reflect type lets it beat Ferrothorn and the set is bulky enough that it can perform well against Meta Metagross, which is really cool. There's a lot of really cool things you can do with it, like becoming Fire/Flying against Mega Zard Y and walling it. The biggest lure to this set is that it can't be Pursuit trapped easily, as it can use Reflect Type on Bisharp or Tyranitar to resist Pursuit. Try it out in your next team - I think you might like it. It forms a really nice core with Mixed Hippowdon and Standard Ferrothorn. Starmie in general hit the jackpot with Greninja leaving as it now competes with Keldeo for the premier offensive Water, and Starmie has the perk of outspeeding the base 110 Megas naturally. Rapid Spin Excadrill is still really good spinner and it's the spinner of choice for teams featuring Tyranitar.

I'm not a huge fan of Defog. I'm not big on Defog Latios because Bisharp is very common right now and giving it +2 sucks majorly. I play offense so my only other option for an Offensive Defogger is Mega Scizor, but the opportunity cost of using Mega Scizor is really steep for offense when you have Mega Gross, Mega Bunny or Mega Diancie to choose from.

Essentially I think that the choice between Rapid Spin or Defog comes down to how well your team can handle Mega Sableye or Bisharp.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 10

Keeper of Night said:
Surprised to see Mandibuzz isn't listed, but she is my favorite Defog user, being a pretty good check to Bisharp and a all-around good physical wall (does have the SR weakness, but the bulk is there to take it). Skarmory is good too, and is really the only Pokemon I'd use the run Defog and hazards in the same team.
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I was iffy on including Mandibuzz, but I added it after consideration.

Good points on the relative weaknesses to Ghosts and Bisharp. I've noticed that many offensive teams, while inherently equipped to handle the latter, are not normally prepared for a +2 Bisharp. Given a good pilot, Bisharp has just the right moves to tear through a lot of HO teams and even some of the more bulky ones. I've never been an avid proponent of Rapid Spin in ORAS (normally use Defog because Lati@s is on almost every team I make), but there's enough reason that it should never be put down, Bisharp being one of the bigger ones. Starmie is also a fresh face to see in OU for the reasons above.

Not much else to add from myself. There's very solid input here already.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 10

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What are your views regarding the use of standard sets against the use of creative sets? Do you value reliability or surprise factor more, or do you tend to go for a mixture of said sets?
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 11

What is meant by creative?

I think a lot of new players feel that by running a non-OU Pokemon in a OU team, they're being creative even though the Pokemon is a liability for their team. I've encountered a few people on the ladders that would use UU, RU and NU Pokemon because they wanted to be creative (and we're not talking about things with niches like Dragalge, Omastar or Mega Pidgeot. We're talking things like Mismagius, Regirock and Dusclops).

I don't think some people get that you can be creative with the Pokemon in OU. Sets like Skill Swap Mega Gallade or suicide lead Skarmory are creative sets and they don't carry that burden of being a liability like other "creative". I absolutely love this Smogon thread as it's full of these effective creative sets. If I ever need inspiration for a team, I check it out and I can find some really cool ideas.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 11

Professor Palutena said:
What is meant by creative?

I don't think some people get that you can be creative with the Pokemon in OU. Sets like Skill Swap Mega Gallade or suicide lead Skarmory are creative sets and they don't carry that burden of being a liability like other "creative". I absolutely love this Smogon thread as it's full of these effective creative sets. If I ever need inspiration for a team, I check it out and I can find some really cool ideas.
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This is what I mean by creative, though I suppose discussion about lower tier Pokemon can be included as long as it isn't senseless bashing on those types of players.

There's a lot of cool techs to use that rest right under players' noses, like Skill Swap Azelf and the two you mentioned. Also, that smogon thread is a great resource indeed.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 11

There's a fine line between being creative and just sticking something in for a change. It's one thing to use a different, unexpected set on an OU Pokemon, which, unless it's very gimmicky, will function properly for the purposes of your team, especially considering that the element of surprise is on your side, and another to slap a lower-tier Pokemon, whose set and purpose are obvious and which is probably completely outclassed by an OU Pokemon. Being creative means to be effective.

Personally, I usually prefer standard sets. In cases, however, that I need some glue, a final touch, I will often create a set of my own solely for that purpose.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 11

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What are your views regarding the methods of hazard control on Hyper Offensive teams? What do you think is most effective?

Examples include Focus Sash leads like Azelf and Terrakion, Defiant users like Bisharp, Ghost-types like Gengar, Rapid Spinners like Excadrill, and Defog users like Latios and Latias. There is also the option of pressure strategies like Volt-turn and *insert four sweepers here*.
 
RE: Competitive Discussion of the Week - 12

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As someone who loves Hyper Offense teams, I've tried several different leads including many Focus Sash leads like Azelf and Terrakion, as well as other leads like Garchomp and Lopunny. But I really do believe that Klefki is the best for several reasons.

Firstly, Prankster in general is a fantastic ability and Klefki's movepool seriously loves it (there's like 8ish support moves I'd love to run on Klefki). Spikes is obvious and a lot of HO Pokemon love Spikes support, including Bisharp, Talonflame and Lopunny. There are other options as well, such as Thunder Wave (which has had tons of success on Thundurus-I), Toxic (for bulky opponents like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon), Fairy Lock (which works well as a suicide lead for a revenge kill or using something as set-up fodder), Magnet Rise (which allows Klefki to counter Landorus-T, Mega Diancie, Landorus-I, Diggersby, etc), Switcheroo (Lagging Tail against offense, Choice Scarf against stall) and Magic Coat (which allows Klefki to sort of make up for its lack of Taunt against other leads).

Secondly, Prankster means Klefki can have some bulk. With no need to invest in speed, you can invest in bulk to flaunt Klefki's amazing defensive typing (9 resists and 2 immunities (3 with Magnet Rise) and 2 weaknesses (1 with Magnet Rise). Klefki can check threats like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir, Gengar and many other threats if you opt for Magnet Rise. Klefki doesn't have to be a suicide lead and you can use its typing later on to help your squishy Pokes.

Thirdly, it pressures common Defog users. Latios and Latias hate Prankster TWave. Foul Play+Leftovers can allow Klefki to beat Latias and Latios. Mandibuzz hates Toxic and it can't touch Klefki. That leaves Mega Scizor who rarely runs Defog. This in turn puts less Pressure on Defiant users which is pretty great. In terms of Rapid Spinners, Magnet Rise Klefki can beat Excadrill (Adamant LO Iron Head has a 13% chance to 2HKO max Def Klefki. Jolly can't 2HKO. Foul Play 2HKOs Excadrill after 1 layer of Spikes. Starmie beats Klefki though, but Starmie is the only other relevant spinner in OU. The downside is that you have to choose between beating Lati@s or Excadrill as Klefki doesn't have the defenses to beat both and how you EV train it depends on how well your team can handle them.

And now unrelated to Klefki,

I personally don't bother with hazard removal on my HO teams unless I'm running Tyranitar+Excadrill HO. Rapid Spin is a huge loss of momentum (especially on Scarf Excadrill which is honestly terrible. Starmie doesn't belong on HO either unless it's the Analytic Rapid Spin set) and Defog is an open invitation for Bisharp to sweep your team as little on HO can stand up to +2 Bisharp aside from Keldeo. Scarf Tyranitar is also becoming rather popular and it traps Lati@s which sucks.

Bisharp is a near-staple on HO and for good reason. Normally suicide leads invite Defogers to come and clean your hazards up but teams are rather weak to +2 Bisharp. You could pair Bisharp and Gengar up for a hazard blocking core but Gengar kinda sucks as a Spinblocker considering Excadrill and Starmie both beat it. I've found that Defiant is usually enough and if your able to beat Defoggers and spinners well enough already you can get away without running Bisharp.
 
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