Virizion EX / Genesect EX

Ivy_Profen said:
I'm not really sure. I guess it makes sense. It's the only thing that can take a hit from pyroar and then hit back. It also OHKO's charizard and has the benefit of confusion for anything that survives.

Darkrai/Yveltal isn't nearly as scary. Which is what I imagine raichu is mainly for. The Sableye is a OHKO from Emerald slash with a muscle band, malmar is just a megalo cannon and both darkrai and yveltal cant ordinarily OHKO Genesect, unless given a ton of energy. But if they put that many resources on the Yveltal, they might have nothing to follow up with if you happen to G booster it before it can do anything. Which i have done a few times using energy switch, plasma energy and G booster. It helps that Roserade can grab any one of those. The sheer suprise OHKO that Genesect can pull is one thing i found that makes this deck so dangerous. Given the right cards, you can play a genesect, play 2 energy switch, 1 plasma energy, and G booster to knock anything out that turn. If they cant reliably OHKO you back like charizard/pyroar/rayboar. The match can be fairly even, if not favoring VirGen
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Also what about Lugia EX? And to be honest Yveltal is a huge threat to VirGen. With Garbodor it makes the matchup much harder. Lets say you have 1 energy on you after a G-Booster, it only takes 1 Laser, 2 dark, 1 DCE, and 1 muscle band to OHKO a Genesect EX. Raichu at least helps out in 2-3 game matchups, has free retreat, can easily be set up by a Virizion EX, and can do as much damage, or more, as Megalo Cannon on Genesect EX.
 
I feel like raichu has a problem dealing with pyroar. It needs a full bench and a muscle band to one hit kill pyroar. While being easily taken out by it. I'm more afraid of fire than dark.
 
Ivy_Profen said:
I feel like raichu has a problem dealing with pyroar. It needs a full bench and a muscle band to one hit kill pyroar. While being easily taken out by it. I'm more afraid of fire than dark.
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Abombasnow is not much better as it only tackles 1-2 matchups and has only 120 HP (OHKOable with band and laser, which most run). He also takes 3 grass (2 with band), and has a 2 retreat cost. Raichu is more versatile in other match-ups too. If you happen to start a game with a pikachu and eventually make it a raichu later it can help because 100-120 damage for a non-ex for 2 colorless energy is pretty good. If you start the game with snover you are pretty much screwed and will most likely have to sacrifice him early (unless you want to use your turn 1 skyla for a switch, but generally I think switch is better mid-late game). I do agree that if I were to face pyroar I would rather choose abombasnow over raichu, but pretty much every other deck in the format I'd rather have raichu for.
 
I agree with Ivy Profen. Virizion/Genesect basically autolosses to any fire deck. Though Charizard with muscle band would be able to take Virizion or Genesect out without weakness, there are things such as Delphox (only needs 3 energy), Blue Flare Reshiram (could even outrage you to death), Entei EX (who powers up other fire pokemon while getting two prizes off of your fire weak EXes), and worst of all, Pyroar. Abomasnow takes care of all of those without the need for a full bench, AND has more HP, which does make a difference in a lot of matchups.

It comes down to personal preference, but I think Abomasnow is the better play for Virgen.
 
Abomasnow makes the deck very clunky and it's hard to maneuver around with him out. Raichu has a free retreat and he does good against Plasma too. Sure, it does take a little to make him good against a Pyroar but he can still get the job done. If you focus on setting up a Raichu, it's a lot easier to manage. Free retreat, only two energy to attack, not a basic, great against other decks too, Raichu has worked so much better for me.
 
pokedan24 said:
I agree with Ivy Profen. Virizion/Genesect basically autolosses to any fire deck. Though Charizard with muscle band would be able to take Virizion or Genesect out without weakness, there are things such as Delphox (only needs 3 energy), Blue Flare Reshiram (could even outrage you to death), Entei EX (who powers up other fire pokemon while getting two prizes off of your fire weak EXes), and worst of all, Pyroar. Abomasnow takes care of all of those without the need for a full bench, AND has more HP, which does make a difference in a lot of matchups.

It comes down to personal preference, but I think Abomasnow is the better play for Virgen.
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The only decks that run reshiram are Rayboar OR bad DCE version decks (why run reshiram over rayquaza...). And Entei's hype is over, so I doubt it will see much play outside of 1 being in an aromatisse deck maybe. Everybody knows that VirGen loses to fire, the same way Blastoise will lose to VirGen and Rayboar will lose to Blastoise, etc. Not much you can do about it, and you'll most likely lose to it either way with or without abombasnow/raichu, so why would you rather have a 2-2 tech for 1-2 match ups rather then a 2-2 tech that is suitable for many matchups? And 120 HP is still bad; it gets OHKOed by Pyroar with a muscle band/ LaserBank, which is prominent in many versions of the deck. It wont help at all with any other decks because 80 damage for 3 grass is horrendous otherwise... but for 2 grass and 100-120 Raichu is at least OK against other decks.
 
With Virizion EX, Abomasnow can't be poisoned, leaving the opponent with Pyroar Muscle Band, 10 short of a KO.
 
pokedan24 said:
With Virizion EX, Abomasnow can't be poisoned, leaving the opponent with Pyroar Muscle Band, 10 short of a KO.
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Laser much? Many pyroar decks run laser with or without laserbank...
 
Elbow said:
pokedan24 said:
With Virizion EX, Abomasnow can't be poisoned, leaving the opponent with Pyroar Muscle Band, 10 short of a KO.
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Laser much? Many pyroar decks run laser with or without laserbank...
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What does this mean? Pokedan just said that Abomasnow can't be poisoned due to Virizion in his post. I think you missed his point :p.
 
Camoclone said:
Elbow said:
Laser much? Many pyroar decks run laser with or without laserbank...
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What does this mean? Pokedan just said that Abomasnow can't be poisoned due to Virizion in his post. I think you missed his point :p.
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Wow I'm an idiot. Sorry for the confusion. I must have read over that post too quickly or something. But still, at most you can OHKO is 2 pyroars assuming both sides attack back to back. Raichu only does 1-2 but works against any other deck.
 
Thats the problem with Raichu right there. As soon as you knock out one. Then you get knocked out yourself. The next raichu wouldn't be able to follow up, unless you happen to bench another pokemon.

The more I play this deck. The more convinced I am it doesn't need Raichu. The match up vs Darkrai/Garb/Yveltal is pretty even. Sure Raichu could make it easier. No doubt about it. But my concern still lies with fire types. Without Abomasnow, this deck needs to abuse G booster to even stay close to even with fire types.

Sure you could play both Abomasnow and Raichu in the same deck. But that would require you to ditch roserade. Which is one of the real strengths of this deck.
 
Ivy_Profen said:
Thats the problem with Raichu right there. As soon as you knock out one. Then you get knocked out yourself. The next raichu wouldnt be able to follow up, unless you happen to bench another pokemon.

The more i play this deck. The more convinced i am it doesn't need Raichu. The match up vs Darkrai/Garb/Yveltal is pretty even. Sure Raichu could make it easier. No doubt about it. But my concern still lies with fire types. Without Abomasnow, this deck needs to abuse G booster to even stay close to even with fire types.

Sure you could play both Abomasnow and Raichu in the same deck. But that would require you to ditch roserade. Which imo is one of the real strengths of this deck.
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I agree that this deck will have major trouble with fire types, but I think there really isnt anything we can do about it. Even Abomasnow will not win you games even with a 3-3 line. Its over klunky and not needed. Now raichu isnt much better, probably worst, and if fire is the best then maybe we should add a colorless EX to the deck. How about tornadus EX? All we need is an EX that can do 90 damage and we can OHKO all pyroar.
I'm also now agreeing that raichu may not be a good decision.
 
As a player who has until the last couple of months or so only played Darkrai/Yveltal and have now been playing VirGen for the last couple of months, I am pretty confident in my match-up against Yveltal without Raichu.

I have been testing Abomasnow since Flashfire was released and feel very happy with it.

I had to look at it like this:

Do I include Raichu and strengthen 1, maybe 2 match-ups and still basically auto-lose to Pyroar/Fire? Or do I answer Pyroar/Fire and still have a solid match-up against pretty much the board?

Let's not make any mistake, Fire and Pyroar are basically an auto-loss. If your opponent is competent and plays well, there is very little you can do to stop the loss.

Abomasnow fixes that issue.

It OHKO's Pyroar, makes advantageous use of Virizion, is not immediately OHKO by Pyroar (without assistance anyway) and trades favorably against Charizard EX in the Prize race.

Whist Raichu does share at least 2 of the advantages Abomasnow has (Emerald Slash can set it up in one turn and it trades favourably against EXs), not having it does not mean you will basically auto-lose to any one match up.

It has been my experience that the Darkrai/Yveltal match-up is not as bad as people keep saying it is for VirGen. I have found that if you play well, use VirGen's natural strengths and abilities, and yes, have some half-way decent luck, then the match-up is probably more favourable than people seem to think it is.

EDIT: @Elbow
and if fire is the best then maybe we should add a colorless EX to the deck. How about tornadus EX? All we need is an EX that can do 90 damage and we can OHKO all pyroar.
I'm also now agreeing that raichu may not be a good decision.
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You're not forgetting that EXs are basics right? And that Pyroar does not take damage from Basics??
 
Pope said:
As a player who has until the last couple of months or so only played Darkrai/Yveltal and have now been playing VirGen for the last couple of months, I am pretty confident in my match-up against Yveltal without Raichu.

I have been testing Abomasnow since Flashfire was released and feel very happy with it.

I had to look at it like this:

Do I include Raichu and strengthen 1, maybe 2 match-ups and still basically auto-lose to Pyroar/Fire? Or do I answer Pyroar/Fire and still have a solid match-up against pretty much the board?

Let's not make any mistake, Fire and Pyroar are basically an auto-loss. If your opponent is competent and plays well, there is very little you can do to stop the loss.

Abomasnow fixes that issue.

It OHKO's Pyroar, makes advantageous use of Virizion, is not immediately OHKO by Pyroar (without assistance anyway) and trades favorably against Charizard EX in the Prize race.

Whist Raichu does share at least 2 of the advantages Abomasnow has (Emerald Slash can set it up in one turn and it trades favourably against EXs), not having it does not mean you will basically auto-lose to any one match up.

It has been my experience that the Darkrai/Yveltal match-up is not as bad as people keep saying it is for VirGen. I have found that if you play well, use VirGen's natural strengths and abilities, and yes, have some half-way decent luck, then the match-up is probably more favourable than people seem to think it is.

EDIT: @Elbow
and if fire is the best then maybe we should add a colorless EX to the deck. How about tornadus EX? All we need is an EX that can do 90 damage and we can OHKO all pyroar.
I'm also now agreeing that raichu may not be a good decision.
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You're not forgetting that EXs are basics right? And that Pyroar does not take damage from Basics??
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I literally have not tested a game against pyroar I sometimes forget why he has so much hype. But maybe Giratina EX? An emerald slash 1 psychic and a muscle band ohkos pyroars.
 
If you really wanted to, you could probably play a 1-1 / 2-2 line of Kangaskhan. Wham Bam Punch can OHKO Pyroar no problem with a muscle band, and it can even threaten charizard pretty well on its own. The only real issue is that it will take up a turn to evolve. Maybe having a Roserade taking the hit while you mega evolve.

I just don't like the idea of being forced to use a mega evolution let alone another ex.
 
Stay the Abomasnow course Ivy! :p As for adding Giratina EX and some Psyhic energy. I honestly don't see where the room for Giratina EX and the 3 Psychic energy you'd probably need are coming from. VirGen's decklist is already tight as it is. I don't think that there is much in the way of "fat to trim" left in this deck.
 
Pope said:
Stay the Abomasnow course Ivy! :p As for adding Giratina EX and some Psyhic energy. I honestly don't see where the room for Giratina EX and the 3 Psychic energy you'd probably need are coming from. VirGen's decklist is already tight as it is. I don't think that there is much in the way of "fat to trim" left in this deck.
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I only think 1-2 is necessary. If one is prized then you are fine and it works with deoxys too.
Im debating whether to put in basic psychic or to put in a blend energy. .
 
Elbow said:
I literally have not tested a game against pyroar I sometimes forget why he has so much hype. But maybe Giratina EX? An emerald slash 1 psychic and a muscle band ohkos pyroars.
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The only problem with that is Giratina is weak to Druddigon, and most Pyroar decks play 1 or 2 of them to counter Latias EX. If they don't run Druddigon though, Giratina should wreck Pyroar.

Elbow said:
I only think 1-2 is necessary. If one is prized then you are fine and it works with deoxys too.
Im debating whether to put in basic psychic or to put in a blend energy. .
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Definitely Psychic. It can be searched with Professor's Letter, and be gotten back with Super Rod. All of your attackers have 1 Colorless cost in their attacks, so not providing Grass isn't that big of a deal.

I haven't tested enough against Pyroar to really comment on the rest of the discussion in this thread right now. I just wanted to add those 2 comments.
 
Ok so after noticing like 90% of my local metagame was turning into darkrai/yveltal. I do have to admit Raichu has its worth. In a match up vs a standard Darkrai / Yveltal, it seems like 55-45 in VirGen favor. But with Raichu it was pretty sad how one sided the match up is. I played a small tournament today, with a 2-2 Raichu / 2-2 Roserade, and the matches were cake walks. First match I didn't lose any prizes and I think I lost 1 on my second one. After I fought the Yvetal decks, I switched out into 1-1 Raichu and 2 enhanced hammers I knew I was going to need for the Plasma deck i was going to encounter. Making quick work of Plasma as well. Granted he couldn't get out his Lugia at all that match. I played another few games with that guy, but 1-1 Raichu and 2 enhanced hammers seems pretty good against team plasma. Making that match up from being close to more heavily favoring VirGen.

Long story short. I do sort of agree with Raichu now in that it just makes VirGen so much better in general. 2 of the top deck's match ups become heavily favoring VirGen. But that fire match up just seems so un-winnable without Abomasnow.
 
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