OU: Strategy The X and Y Metagame Discussion Thread

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Puff-Sun said:
If Mawile gets an evo, that could be pretty ridiculous. Eviolite Mawile or really anything with decent stats and Fairy/Steel typing is insane. Weaknesses are meh, but immunity to poison+dragon and no steel weakness basically cockblocks all dragons, assuming they drop EQ/Fire Blast for Poison/Steel moves.

And Gunk Shot is physical.
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It could be really good with all the resistances (even though the only new thing it gets is immunity to dragon and having Steel be normal effective). I don't think that EQ/Fire Blast would be dropped. Ground hits 4 types for weakness and Fire as well (even if some of them aren't good such as Grass, Ice, Rock, etc). I prefer playing a Pokemon to counter the Fairy type. You might say it as well that you might use a Pokemon to counter Steel types while using the Poison/Steel attacks but with the amount of bulky Steel types, you might need the raw power most Dragon type Pokemon have. It depends of the Pokemon in this part IMO.
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

unsheathed said:
Haha. Blissey.

Blissey can't take any Dragon-types with poor Defense to take the Earthquake/Superpower/Aqua Tail/etc. It also doesn't help when your immunity to Dragon cockblocks the negatives of Outrage. You can try to play that immunity with Choice Dragons, but that's only fun if your hobby is practicing russian roulette in your spare time. I guess you handle Lati@s better, but what's the point when they're going to be using Psyshock lol?

Okay okay it handles Flygon. That's a good physical Dragon right???

The thing we should hope gets Fairy is Togekiss. Complete immunity to the awesome Dragon/Ground combo + Fighting-type resist makes it the best answer to any physical Dragon-type.
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Fairy-type Togeksis. Because Flinching everything just wasn't broken enough.

That's the thing though; Team Preview is necessary because there was such a power creep in gen 5 (aka more Pokemon capable of sweeping entire teams, and some capable of sweeping without a single turn setting up or even weakening most of the opponent's mons) which there's no way that gen 6 will reverse, even if fairy types slow down some of the dragons,
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You could be right. The meta might not run any less offensive pokemon, but the Fairy-type mechanic would balance it out a bit. The meta might still be offensively centered, but I think the Fairy type would make it a more balanced metagame nonetheless. A lot of the sweepers we got this gen were Dragon or Fighting-types, so Fairies keeping them off the field even if because of offensive pressure would still give us a more balanced field of play, I think. It won't be as easy for pokemon to just be like "lol swords dance gg".

EDIT: again, it all depends on which pokemon get the typing. If broken pokemon like Togekiss or Blissey get it, then the meta is going to slow down pretty dramatically, but if it's just dumb pokemon like Mawile with some coverage moves dispersed, then it's likely to remain the same as it is.
 
Do you think the metagame will improve in Pokemon XY?

Realize it's too early to speculate the metagame for Generation XY, but with how BW2 metagame stands?
I'm hoping Nintendo make a good effort next gen; BW2 metagame just got out-of-hand balance-wise. I'm sure Nintendo does not care about the metagame.
Lately, with each new generation, the metagame is getting worse. Generation XY will probably follow this pattern...

Gen. III & Gen. IV metagames were the best.
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve?

Your statements seem contradicting.

You said that lately each new generation is falling, yet that Gen. 3 and 4 were the best.

So really you just mean you didn't like Gen. 5.

I didn't think BW was bad, but I thought that BW2 fed us the same crap with a few new additions. The Pokémon weren't my favourite but I feel that they're still a nice addition to the roster.

From what we've seen I think Gen 6 will be a completely new step in a different direction and fresh. I could be wrong, but so far everything to me is very appealing, where as normally there's a few things I don't like.
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve?

What I meant is the balance of the metagame (in each generation). Since Generation RSE, the balance (metagame) has gotten worse.
Next, Generation DPt, the balance got worse, now at Generation BW2, which, I'm (refraining to say 'destroyed the
balance' per se).

What I liked from Gen. III & Gen. IV metagames; the games focused too much offensively. It was just awesome, occasionally I would have to use a strong Pokémon, later recognized as a Pokémon that's banned...
Gen. GSC metagame was probably the most balanced, after that, Pokémon from the next gen. started getting a power creep. GSC metagame, I'd say was a stallish metagame, but that was so long ago.
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve?

Moving this thread to 5th Gen Competitive because although X and Y are mentioned, this is more about the future of the metagame.
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve?

kbak12 said:
What I meant is the balance of the metagame (in each generation). Since Generation RSE, the balance (metagame) has gotten worse.
Next, Generation DPt, the balance got worse, now at Generation BW2, which, I'm (refraining to say 'destroyed the
balance' per se).

What I liked from Gen. III & Gen. IV metagames; the games focused too much offensively. It was just awesome, occasionally I would have to use a strong Pokémon, later recognized as a Pokémon that's banned...
Gen. GSC metagame was probably the most balanced, after that, Pokémon from the next gen. started getting a power creep. GSC metagame, I'd say was a stallish metagame, but that was so long ago.
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This seems to be the opinions of most competitive players, most of them agree that Gen 3 and Gen 4 metagames are the best. I think the main factor though is that we had years to balance out these two different metagames while BW2 hasn't even been out a year yet, and gen 6 is already coming within the next few months. People were able to work at and balance the two "good" metagames, which is probably what makes them so much better.
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve in Pokemon XY?

^I'm going to go out on a limb to follow-up to that, but I think we'll never have a balanced metagame until Nintendo slows down on releasing generations. At this rate, BW1, BW2 and now XY have come upon us much faster than what did in previous years, and if that keeps up, we won't be able to sharpen and tweak the metagame into a near-perfect state (then again, I'm not sure if the Gen 5 meta can even be made perfect). So, we really can't say if XY will be an improvement until we know when the generation after it is coming. At the moment, Nintendo is not giving us ample time.

If XY brings us a greater majority of balanced or defensively oriented Pokemon, that would help. But, knowing Nintendo in recent years, I don't think that will happen unless it's by accident. Instead, it's likely that the power creep will continue to run its course until it becomes where 100-120 BP coverage moves are the norm (that may be exaggerated on my part).

A better metagame isn't in any way guaranteed with XY's arrival, but we can hope for it. That's about it right now.

~AoH
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve in Pokemon XY?

Well with Fairy-Type being confirmed for Gen VI at E3 this year, I'm curious as to how it will shape up competitive battling in X&Y. For one I still don't get how Fairy-Type is x2 super-effective against Dragon-Type but it's something I need to get used to. Seeing Pokemon like Gardevoir now standing a chance against some of the most popular Dragon-Types in OU or other tiers for that matter is somewhat interesting since it's Type got changed to Psychic/Fairy from what I heard in the X&Y Trailers.

Infact this opens up a whole new can of worms for Pokemon like Celebi who might get changed to Grass/Fairy or Fairy/Psychic to combat Dragon-Types in Ubers, or for instance Jirachi which could become a Steel/Fairy or Psychic/Fairy Type to counter against Ice, Dragon, or Fighting Types. So far Gardevoir aside from Jigglypuff, Marrill, and Sylveon are confirmed as Fairy Types or are changed to Fairy-Types. I'm going to be sad face If I'm not able to migrate my Pokemon over to Gen VI from Gen V just to enjoy this.

I recently noticed that Gen VI is introducing something more interesting than Triple Battles from Gen V called Sky Battles except that it only pertains to Pokemon with the Flying Type and Levitate abilities. There was a video streamed via Nintendo Direct that shows a Haunter and a Kalos Flying Type demonstrating it and I was amazed by this. I wonder how Smogon will signify this battle style in EV training of sorts, should be very interesting. Now I'm more interested than ever to buy a copy of Pokemon Y when it comes out on October 12th this year.
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve in Pokemon XY?

Gardevoir won't stand a chance in OU with her base speed. Way too slow to keep up.

The only one that has any sort of potential in OU is Sylveon, and only if it puts its 110 or 130 base stat into speed.
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

So, apparently the Pokemon-amie thing can be used to raise your Pokemon's evasion and crit rates. I guess that means they are stats now? Maybe we're getting an EV overhaul to go along with the two new stats?
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

If you can raise a Pokemon's evasion and crit rate, assuming the boosts aren't so incredibly low that its not worth it, then I do believe I will stop playing this game. To be fair I've more or less stopped playing competitive VG anyway and with the inevitable Gen VI power creep (yes, more power than Gen V, they'll find a way. Sure, they released Fairies to neuter aggressive dragons. Watch that stop them from just ramping up the power of other things...) I doubt I'll like the Gen VI meta much more anyway, but I digress.
 
RE: Do you think the metagame will improve in Pokemon XY?

Astra said:
Gardevoir won't stand a chance in OU with her base speed. Way too slow to keep up.

The only one that has any sort of potential in OU is Sylveon, and only if it puts its 110 or 130 base stat into speed.
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I actually would disagree with this, with Fairy typing and her solid base 115 SpDef as well as astounding coverage moves, Gardevoir would make a decent tank and/or pivot imo. It can relentlessly switch into Latios and Latias with 0 drawbacks. In addition it gets the useful ability of Trace, which means it also trolls Thundurus-T, Heatran, Gastrodon, and Vaporeon, and unlike other fairy-types, it will actually be able to withstand some of the physical dragon's attacks. It can trace Dragonite's Multiscale as well as Salamence's Intimidate. Gardevoir will also check the non-obscenely powerful special attackers, so stuff like Celebi, Rotom-W, etc. Now it does still have its flaws (it is still pitifully weak Physically, as well as Pursuit weak) so it might suffer some in that retrospect, but I actually think Fairy Gardevoir becomes pretty decent in OU. Maybe not a top-tier threat like Volcarona or Dragonite, but pretty decent.

I was discussing this with TDL on chat the other day, but what I'm wondering is how the Fairy-type pokemon will affect the usage of all-out offensive dragons, since Outrage becomes a liability to have. Literally any Fairy-type @Ice coverage move (hidden power, Ice Beam, Ice Punch) can come in and revenge kill a dragon that's locked into outrage. We are no longer forced to rely on Scizor and Air Balloon Heatran to take care of Dragonite, Salamence, and Haxorus. (and Flygon lololol). Literally any fairy-type at all turns Outrage into a liability.
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Stop fanboying TPO3 ;). I don't think Gardevoir will have an OU presence. Fairy/Psychic is still by no means a good defensive typing. Basically all gardy has is decent sp.D and then the dragon immunity. With the way GF appears to be throwing aroud fairy typing, I would be shocked if we don't have a candidate that outclasses Gardevoir.
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

^Following up on this, Gardevoir still dies to Scizor, but in more ways than one thanks to its new Steel weakness (I bet Scizor will resist Fairy too). We all know how abundant Scizor is in the 5th Gen metagame, and I don't expect much of a change in that respect. Depending on what new moves Gardevoir might get (seriously, it needs HP Fire to even touch Scizor atm), I think Scizor and Tyranitar (if it can't use Focus Miss) will be the reason(s) Garde never hits OU - if it does, I'd be surprised. Sure, Gardevoir is a very nice dragon block and utility SDef wall (minus recovery atm), but it still has too many gaping weaknesses to big players in the OU meta to make for a decent showing. I will say UU.

~AoH
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

AoH said:
^Following up on this, Gardevoir still dies to Scizor, but in more ways than one thanks to its new Steel weakness (I bet Scizor will resist Fairy too). We all know how abundant Scizor is in the 5th Gen metagame, and I don't expect much of a change in that respect. Depending on what new moves Gardevoir might get (seriously, it needs HP Fire to even touch Scizor atm), I think Scizor and Tyranitar (if it can't use Focus Miss) will be the reason(s) Garde never hits OU - if it does, I'd be surprised. Sure, Gardevoir is a very nice dragon block and utility SDef wall (minus recovery atm), but it still has too many gaping weaknesses to big players in the OU meta to make for a decent showing. I will say UU.

~AoH
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I would like to point out that Gardevoir can run both Focus Miss and HP Fire to hit Tyranitar and Scizor, respectively. It can use Protect to scout Scizor for pursuit/bullet punch like the old MysticGar used to do in DPP.

In all seriousness though, I do think Gardy ends up UU at best. It's just too flimsy when it comes to physical defense, and it has one of the worst 4 moveslot syndromes in the game between Calm Mind, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, HP Fire or Ice, Protect, Thunder Wave, Wish, Reflect, and Will-o-Wisp. It just doesn't seem like you have enough space to do what you want. It would have a nice niche in UU though, since it will still have the lesser dragons to switch into (ie: Flygon, Kingdra, Druddigon, Altaria) as well as being a decent special tank.

And to Jay, yes, it all depends on what gets Fairy-typing. It's entirely possible that there will be something that outclasses it, and we're still waiting on other pokemon that might get renamed to Fairy typing as well, such as Clefable or some others that we don't know of yet.
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Clefable sounds even more awesome in lower tiers now. The Dragon-type immunity isn't the biggest plus, instead it's the (rumored) super effectiveness against Fighting-types, which were the bane of Clefable's existence. They still kind of are, but now they absolutely won't switch in now with risk of eating a hit off the super sexy Fairy-type STAB. The main reason I doubt high placement in the tiers is because the stats are still pretty mediocre.

Kind of bored, so I'm going to make a little speculation post just for fun. I'm the kind of guy that loves this type of speculation like this so might as well right??? Only going to cover the Pokemon with (possible) final evolutions since guessing the final evolutions for basics would be stupid.

(stats read as hp/atk/def/satk/sdef/spd)

sylveon_sprite___pokemon_g_r_b_by_chubbylobster-d624s2o.png

Sylveon
Type: Fairy
Ability: Magic Guard / Magic Bounce / Natural Cure
Stats: 110 / 60 / 65 / 95 / 65 / 130
Notable Moves: Moonblast (and other Fairy-type STAB), Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Baton Pass, Wish

Notes: I had to look at the other Eeveelutions to judge the stats, and this was the best I saw possible without copying another Eeveelutions. I was considering 65 / 60 / 65 / 110 / 95 / 130, which is just Jolteon's stats with Atk and Def flipped and thus unlikely. Overall my idea looks decent as a speedy special attacker with decent bulk yet not enough firepower to really contend with the big boys. The 130 Speed does put it above every other Dragon-type in the game.

Abilities could be the defining factor. Magic Guard is easily one of the best abilities in the game, and can definitely be run alongside Life Orb to compensate for the projected 95 SpAtk. Magic Bounce is already taken by Espeon, however I'm still going to give it as a possibility due to the "magical" feel of the Fairy-type. Natural Cure is not as good as Magic Guard, however Natural Cure has a slight edge with status due to the ability to remove paralysis from hurting the 130 Speed.

2pos4ty.png

Talonflame
Type: Fire/Flying
Ability: Rock Head clone ability
Stats: 89 / 125 / 83 / 61 / 67 / 90
Notable Moves: Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Superpower OR Close Combat, U-Turn, Roost

Notes: I wrote this off as soon as I typed out the types, but I might as well find some way for it to be useful in lower tiers. Getting stripped of 50% of your health is already bad, so I make it have a Rock Head clone ability just so it can use Brave Bird and Flare Blitz without instantly dying. The typing is still pretty bad, but with Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce I'm sure it can be cool to try in lower tiers haha.

mt2wk5.png

Gogoat
Type: Grass
Ability: Chlorophyll / Leaf Guard
Stats: 90 / 120 / 84 / 42 / 84 / 70
Notable Moves: Swords Dance, Horn Leech, Superpower, Earthquake, Rock Slide (confirmed)

Notes: I pretty much went with a stat spread about like Stoutland's except with more Attack. Swords Dance is a bit pushing it. I feel it can work with the somewhat low base Speed leaving it outspaced by a few revenge killers even in sun. I wouldn't really run a Swords Dance set anyways and instead focus on a Choice Band set for immediate firepower coming off that sexy Attack.

6jkmd0.png

Vivillon
Type: Bug/Flying
Ability: Wonderskin / Compound Eyes
Stats: 60 / 65 / 70 / 95 / 80 / 70
Notable Moves: Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Quiver Dance, Sleep Powder. Baton Pass, Hurricane

Notes: hahaha
hahahahahah

okay

I copied Venomoth except gave it Compound Eyes and Hurricane so it be a little more threatening. I lowered the speed so it's not a total outclass of Venomoth.

15prc7o.png

Noivern
Type: Flying/Dragon
Ability: Soundproof
Stats: 60 / 75 / 85 / 100 / 85 / 115
Notable Moves: Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Hurricane, Air Slash, Focus Blast, U-Turn, Fire Blast, Flamethrower

Notes: If you notice this stat spread, it's Starmie's. This thing looks fast as balls in its design, and the lack of a strong physical appearance leads me to believe it will be a special attacker. I like Starmie's stat spread because it's not exactly the most powerful spread out there yet it also isn't the worst, mainly due to the fast Speed and average SpAtk. Dragon + Flying is only resisted by Steel-types that can be handled with Fire Blast and Focus Blast. U-Turn is awesome to maintain momentum coming off that blazing Speed, but it comes with a downside due to the Stealth Rock weakness.

Sadly, Soundproof was the only ability that fits the design. :(

im lame :[
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

They all seem about right, but I'm sure TalonflamePyrogrene will be super fast. The official x and y page, among other things, stresses Pyrogrene's speed. Personally, I see it having something like Staraptor's stat spread, but with its Attack and Speed stats being switched.
 
RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

I just hope that we don't get dual-type moves in X and Y. To me it just seems stupid and also, kinda boring for some reason.

Another thing I'm skeptical about is the fairy type. Game Freak seems to hate me since they are putting so much stuff in the games that I don't want. :D They also ruined Gardevoir, you... xD

I hope that they will make the EV and IV system easier and more visible than it is now. I also hope we get the chance to catch old legendaries we haven't had access to for a while. For example, Mew, Jirachi and Celebi.

But mostly, I'm looking forward to X and Y despite some stuff I'm not that excited about. :D
 
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