P!P/Rules Should Seismitoad EX be Banned for Standard and Expanded?

[DarkMatterGaming]

Did what deliberately? It's the same card, right?

Okay, think about it like this:

Toad EX is planned to be completely meta breaking; people flock to it, making the pricing for FuF to skyrocket as well. It sticks around for a couple of sets, then the another set is leaked and has something that's a flat counter and/or more broken than it; pricing for that set goes up because it's the flat counter to what's already broken.

Basically, they're perpetuating an infinite cycle of broken cards; Toad EX is - simply put - the flat counter to a lot of decks right now if only because it gets set up faster.

Colorless M. Ray's going to - theoretically - faster than it as a result of having the Spirit Link (if I recall correctly) and Delta Evolution, plus has an attack based off Bench space - something Toad EX loves to have (Tasting Slurpuff, Garbador, occasional RoboSub).

TL;DR: These cards are created broken to perpetuate the sales for an upcoming set. That's my theory on this at least.

 

[Frost Mage]

I made a thing.

 

[Serperior]

Lol FM. Nice.

I personally hate Eggs more than Seismitoad because of a few reasons.

Eggs come back. Over. And over. And over.

You only take one Prize.

No Supporters forces you to top-deck your life away. Obviously, this isn't a problem in decks that run Acro Bike and Bicycle, but that means you're playing Eeveelutions or Manectric...and I don't run either.

I mean, I still hate Toad and the Crushing Hammer shenanigans it gets to pull off. This card is very unhealthy for the format and I'm hoping it dies sooner than later. It's frustrating to play against, but it's a card that still has bad matchups and can be played around. You just need to account for those.

 

[Green778]

First, I haven't read what other people have said.
Second, this is my opinion : Seismitoad is a great card with a lot of potential and uses. BUT although it has LIMITED weaknesses it is overpowered. I have played AS Seismitoad and Against it and I ended up disliking the card because it took the whole fun from the game. Nobody wants an overpowered gimmick card. If "Quacking punch" was like Dragonite or Zebstrika (back in the day) I am fine. But Print this card in a EX and DCE to attack ? That's brutal and unfair. Therefore, (for me) I understand the hate. I hate this card too. It disrupts many popular decks and to be honest EVERY deck in the years of TCG 'cause always decks relied on items. What's the next step ? Zygarde EX with DCE attack that's : "(attack)": 30 dmg = "Your opponent can't play supporters" (?)

This card should be stopped or banned, like the catcher. Too OP means change the rules! Make it "one per deck" or 3 energy all water... Make it have a drawback that Will balance the game, like dragonite and zebstrika.

I like this opinion because it's the most valid one I've seen and sounds like it comes from a lot more experience, and shows someone recognizes how bad it breaks the game.

First, I haven't read what other people have said.
Second, this is my opinion : Seismitoad is a great card with a lot of potential and uses. BUT although it has LIMITED weaknesses it is overpowered. I have played AS Seismitoad and Against it and I ended up disliking the card because it took the whole fun from the game. Nobody wants an overpowered gimmick card. If "Quacking punch" was like Dragonite or Zebstrika (back in the day) I am fine. But Print this card in a EX and DCE to attack ? That's brutal and unfair. Therefore, (for me) I understand the hate. I hate this card too. It disrupts many popular decks and to be honest EVERY deck in the years of TCG 'cause always decks relied on items. What's the next step ? Zygarde EX with DCE attack that's : "(attack)": 30 dmg = "Your opponent can't play supporters" (?)

This card should be stopped or banned, like the catcher. Too OP means change the rules! Make it "one per deck" or 3 energy all water... Make it have a drawback that Will balance the game, like dragonite and zebstrika.

Please rush to Japan so you can tell them this. PLEASE.

Haha... Thanks It's nice to hear that your ideas are valued somewhere >.<

Plus, nobody said to reprint Seismitoad, just "limit it" (one per deck or something) or change its rules. Certainly nobody expected to be "This" Broken. When FuF was released everybody was interested about the "strong energy and how broken Landorus EX was" and Seismitoad with Garbodor was left out a bit. Things got out of the way when people recognised how broken Seismitoad could actually be after it won some tournaments and became a "trend" not to mention how powerful it became after Phantom forces :
1) Flare tools
2) Enhanced Hammer - a REAL bummer for a lot of players as Special energy where again a risk to use - Xerosic was THE most balanced card for both being a supporter and having the ability to discard flare tools (=your own tools)-
3) Slurpuff, Crobat, AZ and the list goes on and on...

I believe that unfortunately they can't do anything in this format, as things went a lot out of way. Next year though, with a lot of rotation like lasers and virbank, seismitoad will slowly fall in popularity. But you never know... until then we won't enjoy a thing...

 

[TheWhiskaz_]

As much as I find it annoying, I don't think it's so overpowered that it needs to be banned. There should be at least a few ways to get around it. It's just up to the player to find out what method they can use to counter it, if it's a problem for their deck.

 

[DarkMatterGaming]

Lol FM. Nice.

I personally hate Eggs more than Seismitoad because of a few reasons.

Eggs come back. Over. And over. And over.

You only take one Prize.

No Supporters forces you to top-deck your life away. Obviously, this isn't a problem in decks that run Acro Bike and Bicycle, but that means you're playing Eeveelutions or Manectric...and I don't run either.

I mean, I still hate Toad and the Crushing Hammer shenanigans it gets to pull off. This card is very unhealthy for the format and I'm hoping it dies sooner than later. It's frustrating to play against, but it's a card that still has bad matchups and can be played around. You just need to account for those.

I still find Toad because it locks you out of:

Professor's Letter
Random Receiver
VS Seeker
Muscle Band attaches
Float Stone attaches
Acro Bike/Bicycle
Roller Skates

The list goes on and on. Aside from, those bad match-ups... really aren't terrible for it since it has so many ways to get around those bad match-ups, namely Scoop-Up variants, LaserBank and Trump Card.

I honestly can't name one bad match-up that isn't named VirGen, and even that can have issues if it's not attacking first.

 

[Frost Mage]

Lol FM. Nice.

I personally hate Eggs more than Seismitoad because of a few reasons.

Eggs come back. Over. And over. And over.

You only take one Prize.

No Supporters forces you to top-deck your life away. Obviously, this isn't a problem in decks that run Acro Bike and Bicycle, but that means you're playing Eeveelutions or Manectric...and I don't run either.

I mean, I still hate Toad and the Crushing Hammer shenanigans it gets to pull off. This card is very unhealthy for the format and I'm hoping it dies sooner than later. It's frustrating to play against, but it's a card that still has bad matchups and can be played around. You just need to account for those.

I still find Toad because it locks you out of:

Professor's Letter
Random Receiver
VS Seeker
Muscle Band attaches
Float Stone attaches
Acro Bike/Bicycle
Roller Skates

The list goes on and on. Aside from, those bad match-ups... really aren't terrible for it since it has so many ways to get around those bad match-ups, namely Scoop-Up variants, LaserBank and Trump Card.

I honestly can't name one bad match-up that isn't named VirGen, and even that can have issues if it's not attacking first.

A good Yveltal player, anything with a heavy line of cheap big hitters like Mewtwo, stuff with Leafeon, which isn't a loss in itself, can slow you down by not being able to attach more than two energy at a time.

 

[Gaia Storm TCG]

Seismitoad is such a prowerful card right now, it can completely shut down entire strategies.
However, if you ask me, it has serious problems when it comes to face Mega evolutions since they have a lo of HP. We will have to wait to see if Mega Rayquaza and the others can finally put an end to the Seismitoad era. What do you think?

In our current metagame, I would say that primal Groudon is one of the few things (apart from VirGen) that have a slightly favorable matchup against Seismitoad but as you guys have said it's very hard to effectively counter it. Right now, there are only a few cards that can somehow work to stop the lock like Dialga, Cobalion (sometimes) or Xerosic/Team flare grunt.

 

[tototavros]

Seismitoad is such a prowerful card right now, it can completely shut down entire strategies.
However, if you ask me, it has serious problems when it comes to face Mega evolutions since they have a lo of HP. We will have to wait to see if Mega Rayquaza and the others can finally put an end to the Seismitoad era. What do you think?

In our current metagame, I would say that primal Groudon is one of the few things (apart from VirGen) that have a slightly favorable matchup against Seismitoad but as you guys have said it's very hard to effectively counter it. Right now, there are only a few cards that can somehow work to stop the lock like Dialga, Cobalion (sometimes) or Xerosic/Team flare grunt.

Even then, with Dialga, Toad lists will probably run a 1-1 Keldeo/Float Stone to alleviate that problem if Dialga sees too much play. Ei ther that, or they could just use Super Scoop Ups to avoid the move lock.

 

[simsands]

Seismitoad is such a prowerful card right now, it can completely shut down entire strategies.
However, if you ask me, it has serious problems when it comes to face Mega evolutions since they have a lo of HP. We will have to wait to see if Mega Rayquaza and the others can finally put an end to the Seismitoad era. What do you think?

In our current metagame, I would say that primal Groudon is one of the few things (apart from VirGen) that have a slightly favorable matchup against Seismitoad but as you guys have said it's very hard to effectively counter it. Right now, there are only a few cards that can somehow work to stop the lock like Dialga, Cobalion (sometimes) or Xerosic/Team flare grunt.

This is basically what will happen with Seismitoad vs M Rayquaza (C). Rayquaza starts off quick, attaches DCE and another energy with Mega Turbo and gets an early knockout on a Seismitoad. Next, Seismitoad responds by hammering away both energies attached to Rayquaza and activates the item lock. Rayquaza is now stuck with attaching one energy per turn, which Seismitoad easily will be able to discard with more hammers.

M Rayquaza (N) will never be able to get enough energies out to attack.

The only mega (primal) that can deal with Seismitoad is, as you say, Groudon.

 

[DarkMatterGaming]

I'm definitely considering making a video on this if only because I feel like this is an actual issue with the metagame.

The reason I bring it up here is because I'd like some help condensing the arguments on both sides; I'll sift through it myself in the meantime, but having a short list definitely helps with how many posts there are in this thread by now.

Anyway, back to topic:

I don't even know if Groudon can handle it very well; Barrier doesn't block either Hammer, so that 4 Energy attack cost is going to murder it.

 

[Maximinn]

I don't even know if Groudon can handle it very well; Barrier doesn't block either Hammer, so that 4 Energy attack cost is going to murder it.

Omega Barrier blocks all trainer cards except Stadiums and Tools. It will block Crushing Hammer and Enhanced Hammer.

 

[bbninjas]

I still find Toad because it locks you out of:

Professor's Letter
Random Receiver
VS Seeker
Muscle Band attaches
Float Stone attaches
Acro Bike/Bicycle
Roller Skates

Most decks don't run Letters (if most 1), RR is very rare, VS Seeker and Ultra Ball are the most vital cards locked out by Toad, Band and Stone attachments aren't extremely important, while most decks avoid draw items.

If you think about it, most decks run 15 items at the most. 7-8 (Ultra + VS Seeker) are extremely important for decks, and take up the most space. Around 3-4 Tools are used. The remainder are generally techs - normally switches, megaphone, lasers and hammers, with the latter rarely used due to Toad and lack of space.

If you run some sort of ability based draw (Slurpuff, Electrode, Empoleon) which many top decks are starting to with the lack of garb - you can generally run a decent draw. Toad is bit overbashed, if you consider the technicalities. Though they still need to print a stadium with this text >:U:

"Prevent all effects of attacks, excluding damage, done by your opponent's Pokemon's attacks."

 

[DevinTheWelf]

I don't even know if Groudon can handle it very well; Barrier doesn't block either Hammer, so that 4 Energy attack cost is going to murder it.

Barrier DOES block both hammers. And Groudon doesn't rely on items to set up, it uses Landorus to accelerate. This combined with the fact Groudon 1hitKO's Seismitoad, while toad can only do 50 at most (barrier also blocks hypno laser) makes it a bad match up for toad.

 

[DarkMatterGaming]

Okay, yes, I made a mistake on Omega Barrier. Moving on.

If you run some sort of ability based draw (Slurpuff, Electrode, Empoleon) which many top decks are starting to with the lack of garb - you can generally run a decent draw. Toad is bit overbashed, if you consider the technicalities.

Slurpuff gives one/two draw max; I don't find it a good way out of a dead hand when it's full of items.

Electrode is useful but only useable when you have under four cards in hand; again, if your hand is full of items, that's not exactly useful.

Empoleon isn't something you can tech into any deck; it's a Stage 2, has a deck based around itself, and is overall usable thanks to Archie.

Regardless of technicalities, however, it's still breaks the meta when RNG gives you a bad hand. How are you supposed to beat something that literally locks your hand? 'Draw better?'

It's the same issue on why Yatagarasu/Chaos Empereor Dragon were banned in Yu-Gi-Oh; they locked your hand, and made it so you couldn't do anything. Only difference is that Chaos nuked the entire field, and Toad doesn't prevent draw.

The point being, however, is that if you're in a losing spot against Toad, there usually isn't a way around that spot.

 

[Gaia Storm TCG]

Okay, yes, I made a mistake on Omega Barrier. Moving on.

If you run some sort of ability based draw (Slurpuff, Electrode, Empoleon) which many top decks are starting to with the lack of garb - you can generally run a decent draw. Toad is bit overbashed, if you consider the technicalities.

Slurpuff gives one/two draw max; I don't find it a good way out of a dead hand when it's full of items.

Electrode is useful but only useable when you have under four cards in hand; again, if your hand is full of items, that's not exactly useful.

Empoleon isn't something you can tech into any deck; it's a Stage 2, has a deck based around itself, and is overall usable thanks to Archie.

Regardless of technicalities, however, it's still breaks the meta when RNG gives you a bad hand. How are you supposed to beat something that literally locks your hand? 'Draw better?'

It's the same issue on why Yatagarasu/Chaos Empereor Dragon were banned in Yu-Gi-Oh; they locked your hand, and made it so you couldn't do anything. Only difference is that Chaos nuked the entire field, and Toad doesn't prevent draw.

The point being, however, is that if you're in a losing spot against Toad, there usually isn't a way around that spot.

While I agree that Seismitoad is an extremely annoying card, I don't think it can be compared with what it used to be the Yata/CED combo. For those who don't know about Yugioh, there was a deck whose objective was to summon a small bird-like card which prevented your opponent for drawing. It was used in combination with a monstruous dragon that blew up the filed and both players' hands. It was an instant win deck.
Seismitoad, on the contrary, it's not like that. Sure it can make your opponent concede but it can be foughtand beaten. You have a chance to win againts it as long as you run some tech cards -say, Leafeon, Xero, Hawlucha etc-.
I am not saying that Seismitoad is fair but at least, not invincible.

 

[Talkingcat]

Though they still need to print a stadium with this text >:U:

"Prevent all effects of attacks, excluding damage, done by your opponent's Pokemon's attacks."

That would be way too much IMO. It would block all the attacks that accelerate energy like Geomancy, attacks that cause special conditions, attacks that let you draw or search. .. better to just prevent effects on players.

 

[Ironman131]

http://pokebeach.com/scans/plasma-blast/69-haxorus.jpg

Or they could print a card that says if your opponents active pokemon is Seismitoad EX it is KO'd after this pokemon attacks like similar to the attack "strike of the champion" on the Haxorus from Plasma Blast. But make it a stage 1 so it is not a broken card and not impossibly to get out.

 

[Maximinn]

http://pokebeach.com/scans/plasma-blast/69-haxorus.jpg

Or they could print a card that says if your opponents active pokemon is Seismitoad EX it is KO'd after this pokemon attacks like similar to the attack "strike of the champion" on the Haxorus from Plasma Blast. But make it a stage 1 so it is not a broken card and not impossibly to get out.

I think that would be overly specific to actually name Seismitoad EX in the attack. You could maybe do something like Beedrill's Allergic Shock attack though. A basic or stage 1 with the 1 energy attack "If this Pokemon is damaged by an attack from the defending Pokemon during your opponent's next turn, the defending Pokemon is knocked out."

The toad player would be forced to continuously switch to get round it or break the lock. Keldeo/Float Stone would be the obvious counter to the counter but that'll would have rotated or be just about to rotate by the time this hypothetical card came out.

 

[Frost Mage]

Just got 4th place at Oregon States with Toad/Bats, so I'm inclined to say no.