P!P/Rules Should Seismitoad EX be Banned for Standard and Expanded?

Its simple really. Break it down to the basics....rather than looking at toads weakness and sticking with grass as a counter & looking at what it acheives as an attack, look at how to counter its effects with the various other aspects of the game available. A ban is an easy fix, and yes the game is built to make money if you have any business sense about you, but as has been done in the past if it was that broken they would do something about it.

Disclaimer: im not a toad fan boy by any means but have played it occassionally, not often.
 
As many people have said, seismitoad is not anywhere near being banworthy, however an errata that changes it to not being a turn-1 attack would be very, very good. Or maybe an errata that changes the effect to only activating on a coinflip. Either way, the many counters people have pointed out for siesmitoad are rarely actual counters, more just "if you're lucky enough to pull this off yay one seismi is down" kinda things. Seismitoad EX is one of the worst cards in standard right now, next to hypnotoxic laser, and it definitely needs to be dealt with. Let's just hope the ptcg guys start using common sense and errata something that is terrible for the metagame rather than errata something dumb like deluge blastoise or something like I recall them doing before.
 
I stand by that the biggest problem with Toad is that it's no fun to play against. Regardless of counters and techs, if you have to sit through a long game of Pokemon cards being essentially unable to play the game, it's poor game design. When I played a Toad deck at Ontario provincials and ran into other people playing it, the discussion was usually along the lines of "golly gosh is this deck ever nasty and unfun. I hate that it exists and I hate that I'm playing it".
 
I can endure random deck running Toad, I can kill it or lysandre out(assume they are not running free retreat/Keldeo). It still is pain, but it has low damage output so I still can build my lineup. I hate Toad oriented deck - Toad Garbodor/Slupuff. Ban? No. Errata? YES PLEASE. They should really reduce damage a lot, so Toad oriented deck become laughable and Toad compatible deck should use it as tech.
And please make great evolution deck; there is no competitive deck using stage 2 pokemon as main attacker.
 
Seeing the Jirachi Promo that came out on the front page, I think they may have realized just how broken Toad really is. Negating both damage and removing DCE?

I think that's how PTCGi's fixing this.
 
RequiemCrysis said:
I can endure random deck running Toad, I can kill it or lysandre out(assume they are not running free retreat/Keldeo). It still is pain, but it has low damage output so I still can build my lineup. I hate Toad oriented deck - Toad Garbodor/Slupuff. Ban? No. Errata? YES PLEASE. They should really reduce damage a lot, so Toad oriented deck become laughable and Toad compatible deck should use it as tech.
And please make great evolution deck; there is no competitive deck using stage 2 pokemon as main attacker.
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Maybe an Errata to make it so that Toad can't use Quaking Hammer two turns in a row.
 
TheStrictNein said:
Maybe an Errata to make it so that Toad can't use Quaking Hammer two turns in a row.
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What would be the point? Seismitoad EX shouldn't be banned or errated because on it's own, the Toad isn't unmanageable. Hypnotoxic laser and Virbank will most likely rotate soon so his power will be gone. Wait, actually, he won't lose power because he doesn't have much.

Stalling by blocking items isn't a bad tactic if you have to setup your deck nor is item locking in general. It just has to be balanced by having good counters or simply ways to stop the lock (hint Wally and Steven). I can understand the frustration of not being able to use Ultra Ball or Rare Candy but Stage 2s have mostly been difficult to get into play. I think Stage 2s peaked in D/P and the HG/SS era.
But have faith, it looks like TPCi is starting to make Toad decks less dominant or at least, weaken them.
 
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I don't think Toad is so OP, comparing it to Yveltal last year, not at all.

I see more potential on Colorless Rayquaza than on Toad, and Virgen decks can easily counter it because of Weakness.
And it can be easily countered with Eggs.

Also banning Toad is bad, I think Pokémon has never done, and that's good, because if you are tired of it just make your own ToadPuff deck and that's it, or do something that counters it, like Egss, or VirGen.
 
Eron said:
I don't think Toad is so OP, comparing it to Yveltal last year, not at all.

I see more potential on Colorless Rayquaza than on Toad, and Virgen decks can easily counter it because of Weakness.
And it can be easily countered with Eggs.

Also banning Toad is bad, I think Pokémon has never done, and that's good, because if you are tired of it just make your own ToadPuff deck and that's it, or do something that counters it, like Egss, or VirGen.
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Eggs and Virgen are not counters against Toad. They are Tier 2 for a reason.

As for building you own ToadPuff... That's like throwing fire at fire and expecting it to work itself out. You're not helping the problem at all.
 
If I recall correctly Eggs were made to counter Toad, maybe I'm wrong, but that is what people use. VirGen may not, but works for weakness.

Making doesn't help much, but you can make one to be able to win, if you can't deal with it I guess joining them could help, but banning or making an errata to the card is not a good idea, it is just limited to no items and not much damage. This is like when Yveltal was the best deck in format, all decks I saw at nats were Yveltal, Plasma, or Raichu/Landorus. Maybe this time is worse because you had a chance to win against an Yveltal, I don't know about Toad as I haven't played against it, but seems harder than Yveltal.
 
VirGen most definitely beats Seismitoad. Sure Seismitoad can win but it is rare. Eggs on the other hand is close. It really depends on what the Eggs player is playing. Heavy counts of Xerosic or Team Flare Grunt will swing the matchup in Eggs favor. The Toad player will be unable to draw energy and without access to Trump Card they will eventually run out of Energy entirely.
 
DarkMatterGaming said:
Eggs and Virgen are not counters against Toad. They are Tier 2 for a reason.

As for building you own ToadPuff... That's like throwing fire at fire and expecting it to work itself out. You're not helping the problem at all.
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Eggs and VirGen are Tier 2 because they can't always beat /other/ decks.

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Toad is going to get much more weaker, too, IMO. Basically any rotation would remove Lasers, which is a huge part of Toad's damage. The high HP Megas/Primals are difficult to take down, especially since they can hit for much higher damage. Shaymin is going to be another way to draw what you need, while things like M-Rayquaza-EX are going to be ridiculously fast. I also think Toad is starting to dig itself a hole, similar to Donphan, with the lesser amount of items being used and more decks have types of counters for it.

I also think that if you cannot handle Toad, then you are not a good player, or you can't build decks that take in account of Toad. Good players will know how to play against it, and won't complain as much for that reason, while bad players obviously cannot.
 
bbninjas said:
Eggs and VirGen are Tier 2 because they can't always beat /other/ decks.

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Toad is going to get much more weaker, too, IMO. Basically any rotation would remove Lasers, which is a huge part of Toad's damage. The high HP Megas/Primals are difficult to take down, especially since they can hit for much higher damage. Shaymin is going to be another way to draw what you need, while things like M-Rayquaza-EX are going to be ridiculously fast. I also think Toad is starting to dig itself a hole, similar to Donphan, with the lesser amount of items being used and more decks have types of counters for it.

I also think that if you cannot handle Toad, then you are not a good player, or you can't build decks that take in account of Toad. Good players will know how to play against it, and won't complain as much for that reason, while bad players obviously cannot.
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I think too many people reply on Roller Skates for draw and maybe others I can't bring off the top of my head right now.
 
bbninjas said:
I also think that if you cannot handle Toad, then you are not a good player, or you can't build decks that take in account of Toad. Good players will know how to play against it, and won't complain as much for that reason, while bad players obviously cannot.
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Here's the problem; It's not that toad is hard to counter, it's that he's not fun and he limits the format so much. Any deck that isn't the usual yveltal, seismitoad, exeggcutor, flareon, fairies, or landybats has pretty much no chance of doing anything because there are so few actual counters to toad. Only one I can think of that actually does counter is exeggcutor. Leafeon can get hammer'd, Aegislash and virizion can get garbodor'd, and most other things don't actually work. Plus, games against seismitoad are never fun, because you're just sitting there letting toad do his thing and ignoring 90% of your deck trying to get your toad counter out.
I am currently experimenting with excadrill as my deck of choice for nationals, and my deck does not require ultra ball, professor's letter, vs seeker, etc. after turn1 to function; they're all just convenient. But of course, seismitoad doesn't just stop at locking sift. You know what my deck is worried about? Muscle band. Without that I can't reliably KO the toad, and even with muscle band there's super scoop up, which is probably the worst thing ever for anyone playing against toad. I've managed to give my deck a reliable advantage aganst fairies, flareon, exeggcutor, and genvir, and a 50/50 chance against yveltal and landybats, but because of toad I'm going to lose any tournament I go to because he's so easy to use, annoyingly effective, and popular. Wouldn't it be nice if people were able to experiment with the format and actually have fun at tournaments rather than play the handful of good cards in the gigantic bin that is our format and nothing else or lose?
 
I tried a Seismitoad/Slurpuff, as it's the most used one, and had trouble with VirGen, because VirGen doesn't need items to win to a Toad, Virizon can hit for 100 and Genesect do a 1HKO, and yes, it is not fun to play against a Toad as you are limited on what you can do. And now after seeing that about the rotation, Toad will lose some power, as the most they will be able to get per turn will be 50 or 100 if weakness because Virbank and Laser will be gone.
And as Phoenix said, if you don't have the usual decks you can't stand against a Toad because it hits hard and there are few counters to Toad, but I hope something good comes on the next expansion.
Right now I'm unsure on what to use on my Nats, Toad, M-Gallade/Bats, Kyogre, Kingdra.
 
Eron said:
I tried a Seismitoad/Slurpuff, as it's the most used one, and had trouble with VirGen, because VirGen doesn't need items to win to a Toad, Virizon can hit for 100 and Genesect do a 1HKO, and yes, it is not fun to play against a Toad as you are limited on what you can do. And now after seeing that about the rotation, Toad will lose some power, as the most they will be able to get per turn will be 50 or 100 if weakness because Virbank and Laser will be gone.
And as Phoenix said, if you don't have the usual decks you can't stand against a Toad because it hits hard and there are few counters to Toad, but I hope something good comes on the next expansion.
Right now I'm unsure on what to use on my Nats, Toad, M-Gallade/Bats, Kyogre, Kingdra.
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The only hope Vir/Gen has against Toad/Puff is getting the req'd energy cost to Emerald Slash. If the ToadPuff can manage to Head Ringer the Virizions and the Genesects, and can manage to prevent 3 Energy from going down on a Pokemon, the ToadPuff player should be good.
 
bbninjas said:
I also think that if you cannot handle Toad, then you are not a good player, or you can't build decks that take in account of Toad. Good players will know how to play against it, and won't complain as much for that reason, while bad players obviously cannot.
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This is false. Many good players lose to Toad and with good reason. Toad can essentially beat any deck as long as it flips really well. Countering Toad is not as simple as teching in a Grass type like Leafeon.

tototavros said:
The only hope Vir/Gen has against Toad/Puff is getting the req'd energy cost to Emerald Slash. If the ToadPuff can manage to Head Ringer the Virizions and the Genesects, and can manage to prevent 3 Energy from going down on a Pokemon, the ToadPuff player should be good.
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The way it is phrased makes it seem like getting an Emerald Slash is hard to pull off :p. Toad should only win if they get very lucky.
 
Is Lysandre' Trump Card actually problamatic? I feel this card destory entire game mechanics. Without LTC, Toad deck become garbage, as they can't infinitely draw cards. If it wasn't recylable via VS Seeker/Dowsing machine, I can get the point (use against Flareon/Night March), but this just nullifies entire deck/discard piles.
 
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RequiemCrysis said:
Is Lysandre' Trump Card actually problamatic? I feel this card destory entire game mechanics. Without LTC, Toad deck become garbage, as they can't infinitely draw cards. If it wasn't recylable via VS Seeker/Dowsing machine, I can get the point (use against Flareon/Night March), but this just nullifies entire deck/discard piles.
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I somewhat agree in that it being in the same format as vs seeker could be problematic, but I don't feel it's the main problem here. Lysandre's trump card is also a nice card to have in every other deck because the format right now if essentially 90% sift, and being able to not deck out is great. If it was put in the lost zone after use it'd be completely balanced though.
 
With the recent ban of LTC and how it really felt out of the blue because it never really felt like a true issue on its own, and many people pointing fingers at the 'toxic' toad deck variants who could spam lasers and hammers, a lot of people were confused and felt the ban should have been aimed at the Toad. With the pokemon company finally banning a card, last seen in the neo genesis days. This makes me wonder if the pokemon company is willing to be more open about banning cards now and if we will see bans on other cards in the future, and currently the biggest target for a potential ban will be Seismitoad. Thoughts?
 
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