Finished Mafia XXXV: Pokemon Card GB3: Team GR's Last Stand

[bbninjas]

When I said everyone thought it was a safeclaim it was a generalization, like this is a common thing. Did you really expect me to put in exactly who thought is was a safeclaim. I can only be so specific when I'm trying to generalize the entirety of day 1 while in line to pick up some burritos.

And you take the bait again. Yes, this is the weak evidence; I have already said that. Continuing to argue the obviously flawed evidence yet neglecting the solid evidence is typical scum behavior. After all, if what evidence suggests is true, then scum won't have a good defense for it.

With the quaking case, yes I felt like knew what was going pre-claim, going after someone pretty intensely (which you're also doing), and Celever pointed out this could be a scum tactic. Made sense to me, but I still had a sliver of a doubt as I also asked if it was normal quaking play to be that intense.

To begin with, of your posts (A, B, C) referring to the quaking before the claim, you are express virtually only the doubts of the lynch. Yet here you say you thought quaking was scum and in your response above you say your doubt was only a "sliver". It looks you had a lot more "doubt" than just a sliver. I am becoming increasingly confident that you are scum and were intentionally creating a path to switch on/off the wagon without being called out for backpedaling.

Quaking then claims and shortly after and it's apparently part of his plan to be lynched. Also when the claim and the reactions to the claim happened I was offline and quite a bit happened before I posted my reaction to it. I mean didn't someone hammer quaking and then retracted their vote? That's also when things got messy and I was confused by his "plot" and people trying to make something of his claim and his seemingly aggressive actions. I just had a simple change of opinion after a fat load of info was dumped on us that's about it (not-so-confused --> confused).

So... you're saying because quaking claimed and said he wanted to get lynched, you got lost? But if this was true, why did you make no effort here to get 'unlost'? Perhaps you were backpedalling to gain town-cred, hence why you did not make any effort to understand?

And by the way, confusion is not an opinion. Town read ---> scum read is, but confusion is not.

Did I miss anything else? I think I covered the rest in this post.

You have still ignored the first (and most convincing) sections of the case.

 

[Reinforce]

Finished reading and thinking through Day 1, and understandably there's really only a few players with notable posts. I have to admit though, Celever's observation and case regarding quaking twisting Jesi's words was really on point. Though quaking flipped town, I'm not sure if it's genuinely the actions of a scum trying to steer the attention away from his scumbuddy who's currently pressured, which is what I was going to question him about today after yesterday's events. :/ I guess the Jesi angle is better to look at here.

Nice one, Cel :v

Anyways, Quaking's flip was surprising, TBH. That teaches you not to play a-la Camo, I guess. I'd have to check the votes again and give some thoughts once I'm off studying.

simsands blew up Keeper.

Not sure who to vote for, but it seems RF is clear.

If we're going to call the latter a fluff/observation post, then I'd think the former is too. Minus points for both of them in my notes, I suppose.

Hi folks!

I'm still trying to catch up here so I'd appreciate it if someone could help me understand Day 1.

I'm not sure why any of you thought quaking's claim was a safeclaim when going just off of the flavor of the role, and I can't believe some of you thought the safeclaim made him more scummy. Like, what? Everyone who voted for quaking after his safeclaim was posted is on my scum suspect list

Uh, I'd probably put this up to you being confused because you just subbed in, but I have to ask where did you get the notion that quaking had a safeclaim? He's town. He never had a safeclaim posted? ??

I noted Celever doing something similar to me in the last game where he was scum (Order in the Court, I think?). It was a bit of a reach back then, but fool me twice, Cel ...

On another note––I'm townreading scattered right now. I'm usually concerned when one person starts posting every few other posts, but scattered's scummeta isn't anything like this.

No idea what to say about KX yet. I want to see more defense from him on each of bb's points; it's like he's trying to address them all in a single paragraph, which doesn't work.

I agree on the Celever point, but right now I can't really confirm that suspicion with solid proof, so it's more of a guess or gut feeling for now.

As I recall, scattered has only been scum once (Dimensional Shift, I think?) so it's really hard to pinpoint him having any discernible meta. As for him being town, he doesn't have a pattern either, and I think he changes his play style and post activity depending on his role/abilities rather than his alignment. For example, in bbninjas' game (the one with Pokemon Rangers and Team Aqua/Magma), he was active and posting a lot because he had an ability that benefited from getting the scum's attention. In Order in the Court, where he had a role that worked better late game and he had to slip under the scum radar, he had minimal posts. I'm not sure if he'll take this as a compliment but I find him to be the type of town player who's good at downplaying when his role is vital and staying afloat when his role isn't or doesn't have major use.

Long story short, I don't have an alignment suspicion on scattered right now. More posts from him would get me closer to that though.

 

[bbninjas]

As I recall, scattered has only been scum once (Dimensional Shift, I think?) so it's really hard to pinpoint him having any discernible meta. As for him being town, he doesn't have a pattern either, and I think he changes his play style and post activity depending on his role/abilities rather than his alignment. For example, in bbninjas' game (the one with Pokemon Rangers and Team Aqua/Magma), he was active and posting a lot because he had an ability that benefited from getting the scum's attention. In Order in the Court, where he had a role that worked better late game and he had to slip under the scum radar, he had minimal posts. I'm not sure if he'll take this as a compliment but I find him to be the type of town player who's good at downplaying when his role is vital and staying afloat when his role isn't or doesn't have major use.

This is false.

 

[Reinforce]

This is false.

It's an opinion.

 

[Scattered mind]

And you take the bait again. Yes, this is the weak evidence; I have already said that. Continuing to argue the obviously flawed evidence yet neglecting the solid evidence is typical scum behavior. After all, if what evidence suggests is true, then scum won't have a good defense for it.



To begin with, of your posts (A, B, C) referring to the quaking before the claim, you are express virtually only the doubts of the lynch. Yet here you say you thought quaking was scum and in your response above you say your doubt was only a "sliver". It looks you had a lot more "doubt" than just a sliver. I am becoming increasingly confident that you are scum and were intentionally creating a path to switch on/off the wagon without being called out for backpedaling.



So... you're saying because quaking claimed and said he wanted to get lynched, you got lost? But if this was true, why did you make no effort here to get 'unlost'? Perhaps you were backpedalling to gain town-cred, hence why you did not make any effort to understand?

And by the way, confusion is not an opinion. Town read ---> scum read is, but confusion is not.


You have still ignored the first (and most convincing) sections of the case.

Ok at first I had a hard time to understand the KX case, but now I have read it and I am ready to comment on it :

As I understand, the case on KX is as followed:
In post 347 (C), KX says that he initially found quaking scummy, but after his claim KX says that he is not sure about it. So bb went to look where did KX state his thoughts on quaking before the claim, and found post number 261 (A). There- KX said that he agrees that quaking is being a little too harsh, but that it is quaking's normal play.
Now, this is what KX needs to answer to, and have not so far. If KX did not see quaking as scummy, why did he say later on that he had thought quaking is scummy ?

Simply put, it looks like KX kept saying quaking is not scummy/ not worth to lynch, so it is not clear why did he say in one point that he thought quaking was scummy before the claim.

 

[Scattered mind]

Ok at first I had a hard time to understand the KX case, but now I have read it and I am ready to comment on it :

As I understand, the case on KX is as followed:
In post 347 (C), KX says that he initially found quaking scummy, but after his claim KX says that he is not sure about it. So bb went to look where did KX state his thoughts on quaking before the claim, and found post number 261 (A). There- KX said that he agrees that quaking is being a little too harsh, but that it is quaking's normal play.
Now, this is what KX needs to answer to, and have not so far. If KX did not see quaking as scummy, why did he say later on that he had thought quaking is scummy ?

Simply put, it looks like KX kept saying quaking is not scummy/ not worth to lynch, so it is not clear why did he say in one point that he thought quaking was scummy before the claim.

Now is that your Core Case (main/most crucial point) on KX, @bbninjas ?

 

[Scattered mind]

Finished reading and thinking through Day 1, and understandably there's really only a few players with notable posts. I have to admit though, Celever's observation and case regarding quaking twisting Jesi's words was really on point. Though quaking flipped town, I'm not sure if it's genuinely the actions of a scum trying to steer the attention away from his scumbuddy who's currently pressured, which is what I was going to question him about today after yesterday's events. :/ I guess the Jesi angle is better to look at here.





If we're going to call the latter a fluff/observation post, then I'd think the former is too. Minus points for both of them in my notes, I suppose.



Uh, I'd probably put this up to you being confused because you just subbed in, but I have to ask where did you get the notion that quaking had a safeclaim? He's town. He never had a safeclaim posted? ??



I agree on the Celever point, but right now I can't really confirm that suspicion with solid proof, so it's more of a guess or gut feeling for now.

As I recall, scattered has only been scum once (Dimensional Shift, I think?) so it's really hard to pinpoint him having any discernible meta. As for him being town, he doesn't have a pattern either, and I think he changes his play style and post activity depending on his role/abilities rather than his alignment. For example, in bbninjas' game (the one with Pokemon Rangers and Team Aqua/Magma), he was active and posting a lot because he had an ability that benefited from getting the scum's attention. In Order in the Court, where he had a role that worked better late game and he had to slip under the scum radar, he had minimal posts. I'm not sure if he'll take this as a compliment but I find him to be the type of town player who's good at downplaying when his role is vital and staying afloat when his role isn't or doesn't have major use.

Long story short, I don't have an alignment suspicion on scattered right now. More posts from him would get me closer to that though.

The only time that my role had any effect on my playstyle was indeed Pokemon Rangers, as I tried to be a NK target as much as possible.

However, the rest of the games, I always try to be as much active as possible and to contribute. I don't remember any other role that had any effect on my playstyle. (Besides the one time I was scum of course).

 

[bbninjas]

Now is that your Core Case (main/most crucial point) on KX, @bbninjas ?

If understanding correctly, it's pretty much one of my two main points. The other (which King X has neglected to comment on) is that with Excal, he was entertaining the slip possibility despite evidence, which sounds a lot like scum leaving opportunities open to lynch town to me.

 

[Scattered mind]

>_>

##VOTE: scattered mind



Your case on TGK is about his meta. Luis pressures your claim (or at least I read it that way) by saying that anything TGK does tends to get either called out as scum, which refers to their meta. You give Luis a town read for that, even though he's going against your case. Luis also says that anything he does tends to get called out as scum, so you give him town credit, which is odd since the statement alone isn't even that townie and it seems like you're satisfying Luis' wish to not look scummy.

I have given him some tiny townie points for the townie vibes I got from his frustration. I do not agree with him. I think that tgk is scummy, and I don't see why I should take my vote from him. If tgk gets to be called scummy no matter what he does, then how can anyone check his posts?
While I agree that tgk is often get called for being scummy, it is not always have anything to do with his scum meta. Doing something scummy, does not mean that you are acting like your scum meta. In other games, tgk was called out for scummy things, but those things were not necessarily referred to his scum meta.
Additionally, tgk got called for acting like his scum meta a lot when he was town. That does not mean that we should stop trying to figure out what his scum meta is. I think that tgk is acting really similar to the time he was scum in the game where I was scum.

 

[Scattered mind]

If understanding correctly, it's pretty much one of my two main points. The other (which King X has neglected to comment on) is that with Excal, he was entertaining the slip possibility despite evidence, which sounds a lot like scum leaving opportunities open to lynch town to me.

So he has already commented on the point I was commenting about ?

 

[bbninjas]

So he has already commented on the point I was commenting about ?

I believe most of this post is a weak response to that point.

 

[bbninjas]

Your case on TGK is about his meta. Luis pressures your claim (or at least I read it that way) by saying that anything TGK does tends to get either called out as scum, which refers to their meta. You give Luis a town read for that, even though he's going against your case.

Luis also says that anything he does tends to get called out as scum, so you give him town credit, which is odd since the statement alone isn't even that townie and it seems like you're satisfying Luis' wish to not look scummy.

@scattered mind None of what you responded with here really relates to the second point (paragraph) of PP's. I was hoping moreso for a response to this second point.

 

[Scattered mind]

How does KX react?

Speaking of @Luispipe8 , can you answer this?

 

[Scattered mind]

@scattered mind None of what you responded with here really relates to the second point (paragraph) of PP's. I was hoping moreso for a response to this second point.

If he was pressured by any means, it would be scummy. However, he was saying that out of frustration and as an example. I could be wrong about it, but this frustration sounds believable. This frustration alone though, does not mean he is town, hence the tiny townie points I gave him.

 

[Scattered mind]

As I mentioned in the spoiler, entertaining the thought that Excal slipped is scummy, considering there was a highly plausible reason (Jesi's tag) for Excal's response. However, unlike when Camo does this, I don't think King X is trying to extract reactions. Rather, this looks like scum making sure they do not close any developing lynch options, so they can jump on the lynch at a later stage without being called out for bandwagoning.

Umm I really want to comment on it, but I think it is best to see what KX will say about it.

@King Xerneas - this is the main case on you, please answer.

 

[Celever]

I dislike the case on KX. Very subjective, very "you weren't optimal", which doesn't equate to scum (in fact, usually the inverse). KX doesn't always post his thoughts immediately, so maybe he thought quaking was scummy in the 100 post difference between his initial thoughts on quaking and quaking's claim??

##VOTE: bbninjas
Why are you "baiting" your targets? If a case is good, it'll stick. Having to use manipulative techniques such as baiting and trying to cause a response in a player is only a scum tactic, because it results in players of any alignment appearing scummy.

I think KX is town and you saw very minor flaws in his posts and decided to push a case. I did the same thing last time I was scum, because it seems like KX is sometimes easy to try and force a town lynch on. However, I think your case is terrible, and the methods with which you're going about getting a reaction out of him are scummy and unnecessarily manipulative. So you're scum, not him.

I was letting the pressure play out to see what happened, and I'm glad I did.

 

[Scattered mind]

Well, now that Celever has already commented on the KX case, might as well stop waiting.

This is what I wanted to post after KX comments:

bbninjas, this point is actually very weird. The jesi tag on excal was not a good explanation for Excal's post about someone telling him to contribute and vote. Even Jesi herself thought it was weird and voted Excal for that. No one thought that the tag alone is enough reason to drop all suspicion on Excal. Those who thought Excal is not scummy were only speculating that she probably talked to Jesi on skype. It was only later on page 19 post 378 that Excal explains about the Skype conversation with Jesi, which is way after all of KX posts about Excal.

The other point is more valid imo. After reading KX response to it, he said that he thought quaking is scummy, but was not sure about it since he think it is how quaking always react, and was even more unsure about it after the claim. So this could be the explanation for that point- that he simply didn't phrase himslef well. Thus, more evidence is needed before lynching him.

 

[Celever]

Well, now that Celever has already commented on the KX case, might as well stop waiting.

This is what I wanted to post after KX comments:

bbninjas, this point is actually very weird. The jesi tag on excal was not a good explanation for Excal's post about someone telling him to contribute and vote. Even Jesi herself thought it was weird and voted Excal for that. No one thought that the tag alone is enough reason to drop all suspicion on Excal. Those who thought Excal is not scummy were only speculating that she probably talked to Jesi on skype. It was only later on page 19 post 378 that Excal explains about the Skype conversation with Jesi, which is way after all of KX posts about Excal.

The other point is more valid imo. After reading KX response to it, he said that he thought quaking is scummy, but was not sure about it since he think it is how quaking always react, and was even more unsure about it after the claim. So this could be the explanation for that point- that he simply didn't phrase himslef well. Thus, more evidence is needed before lynching him.

What do you think about bb trying to bait KX?

 

[Scattered mind]

What do you think about bb trying to bait KX?

I don't know if putting traps is only for scums. (Town Camoclone ?) However, if bbninjas intended to make his "stronger point" unnoticed and his weaker points more bolded, then yeah, this is kinda scummy, since the only reason to do that is when you know that your target is town, and as such, don't care about getting the truth.

 

[bbninjas]

I dislike the case on KX. Very subjective, very "you weren't optimal", which doesn't equate to scum (in fact, usually the inverse). KX doesn't always post his thoughts immediately, so maybe he thought quaking was scummy in the 100 post difference between his initial thoughts on quaking and quaking's claim??

##VOTE: bbninjas
Why are you "baiting" your targets? If a case is good, it'll stick. Having to use manipulative techniques such as baiting and trying to cause a response in a player is only a scum tactic, because it results in players of any alignment appearing scummy.

I do this all the time though..? I always am trying to fish out responses. I admit that I do analyse flaws in my arguments and still leave the weak ones in my cases, but this is a technique that I sometimes use to get reactions (this is the "baiting" I refer to). TGK cases were big ones. Though... in those cases TGK flipped town... so maybe you're right in that this technique doesn't work. >_>

I think KX is town and you saw very minor flaws in his posts and decided to push a case. I did the same thing last time I was scum, because it seems like KX is sometimes easy to try and force a town lynch on.

I disagree that these are "minor flaws". I think that anyone who entertained the thought that Excal slipped after the "slip" was resolved are suspicious. King X's posts seem like the typical scum making paths to jump on/off bandwagons. Scum pushing someone like KX is subjective.

However, I think your case is terrible, and the methods with which you're going about getting a reaction out of him are scummy and unnecessarily manipulative. So you're scum, not him.

Oh, thanks. >.>;

If you're expecting me to defend my case from being named "terrible", I really can't if there isn't reasons. And, well, you can see above for my response to me being scummy/manipulative.

I was letting the pressure play out to see what happened, and I'm glad I did.

The pressure hasn't finished yet - I still haven't got the response for the upper section of my case that I need.

bbninjas, this point is actually very weird. The jesi tag on excal was not a good explanation for Excal's post about someone telling him to contribute and vote. Even Jesi herself thought it was weird and voted Excal for that. No one thought that the tag alone is enough reason to drop all suspicion on Excal. Those who thought Excal is not scummy were only speculating that she probably talked to Jesi on skype. It was only later on page 19 post 378 that Excal explains about the Skype conversation with Jesi, which is way after all of KX posts about Excal.

But it is a good explanation? I could easily see a new player make assumptions like that. :/
Though, maybe I'm making the assumption here... >~>

The other point is more valid imo. After reading KX response to it, he said that he thought quaking is scummy, but was not sure about it since he think it is how quaking always react, and was even more unsure about it after the claim. So this could be the explanation for that point- that he simply didn't phrase himslef well. Thus, more evidence is needed before lynching him.

Maybe... but this doesn't explain why King X was vocal on his doubts and not his suspicions pre-claim.

I don't know if putting traps is only for scums. (Town Camoclone ?) However, if bbninjas intended to make his "stronger point" unnoticed and his weaker points more bolded, then yeah, this is kinda scummy, since the only reason to do that is when you know that your target is town, and as such, don't care about getting the truth.

This wasn't my intention - I wasn't trying to make anything appear stronger or weaker (it shouldn't look like that in my original case) - King X responded to the weak stuff and neglected the strong stuff, which is what I think is scummy.