Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

[Celever]

Again, you said it was clear, not "could be" or something in that line.

Fair enough. I think it is pretty clear, though, and would put money on the idea that Lele didn't have access to the scumchat: it fits the role too well. But hypothetically I should have said "could be" instead of clear.

 

[Scattered mind]

Fair enough. I think it is pretty clear, though, and would put money on the idea that Lele didn't have access to the scumchat: it fits the role too well. But hypothetically I should have said "could be" instead of clear.

Also, I remember you said that you agree that bb is scummy, but not for PMJ's reasons or something. What IS your thoughts on bbninjas? Do you think PMJ and bb are most likely town-vs-town or more likely scum-vs-town?

 

[Yog]

Interesting theory, although it isn't really worth to check right now because unless he starts posting chances are he will get modkilled.

Mmmhmm, hence I will leave my vote somewhere more useful. I'm not even going to mention how similar this would be to Pikachuuuuuu's play in the last game where we got him to show up and vote so at least his one post looked like a town one.

 

[Celever]

Also, I remember you said that you agree that bb is scummy, but not for PMJ's reasons or something. What IS your thoughts on bbninjas? Do you think PMJ and bb are most likely town-vs-town or more likely scum-vs-town?

On days 1 and 2 I found bb somewhat scummy, and this was before PMJ had ever posted so they were for different reasons. Right now, I have no real thoughts on him. PMJ vs bb is definitely scum-vs-town or scum-vs-scum (this being staged is like, 45% likely to me right now) but it's too much of a mess to be able to gauge whether the mafian is bb or PMJ in a scum-vs-town. This is why I feel like it's very very possibly staged: usually one side comes from a place of being slightly more right or assured, whereas with these two they're both making as little sense as each other and grasping at things they have no business grasping at.

But I don't think it's productive to pursue either of them right now. A part of me wants to lynch PMJ so that the thread becomes less centralised, because he keeps pushing attention onto bb which is really unproductive and sets the town back massively, even if the guy is mafia.
e.g.:

Change your vote.

In response to Samwise, for not voting for bbninjas and instead voting for Gekki, who is a pretty solid lynch target for today, actually.

##UNVOTE: Samwise for now.

 

[Jabberwock]

- Luis - the only thing that I can remember about Luis is that he was vocal about how he'd be particularly upset at the hosts, if Lele flipped town. The fact that he was very vocal then, but died off in activity pings my scumdar. Similar to what scattered was talking about earlier, I suppose. Thoughts @Luispipe8? (Scummier)
- Drac - He's been flying under the radar, but I've noticed that he's also been popping in and giving rather nonchalant observations on a few random things, but not actually saying what he thinks about those observations. It doesn't strike me as very committal, and I don't really know where Drac stands right now despite his semi-regularly commentary - so that's interesting. (Scummier)
- PMJ - I'm very not keen about PMJ, since I'm seeing his case as very twisted / selective when it comes to the evidence pertaining my motives. However, his point regarding how I defended Lele for the entire of Day 2 is something I'm considering an oversight right now, just misinformed, and so I'm two parts here. It will depend on what he says next, and I should be able to develop a more coherent (and hopefully less bias) read based on his responses to my questions. (scum-lean)
- morda - I've been reading morda as quite town since he's been inquisitive and thoughtful, and as a byproduct of that, he seems to be thinking things through and have a clear thought process. Specifically the latter point, I tend to consider a more innocent indicator (since scum thought processes normally aren't that "complete" or "full"), so he's really my only town read. (inno-lean)

Okay, that was initially quite the impressive list, but here I've trimmed it down a bit to the four people you said anything about that resembles an actual read. Tbh a full reads list really wasn't what I was looking for –– and there'd be no point in one anyway as half the players in the game seemingly don't exist –– so I basically wanted to see you commit to a read on a player. Place a vote. I assume you don't want to get lynched, so give us an alternative. It's actually very telling that you haven't managed to do this yet.

And another thing about the reads list –– three of the players you listed not under vague/wishy-washy reads, you've read as neutral. Which is completely ridiculous. Neutral is the very vaguest and very wishy-washiest of reads.

And don't forget that since this is a role madness game, the town is likely armed to the teeth as well.

Refers to the town as a separate entity; i.e., one he isn't a part of.

Agreed. In fact I think PMJ has done more to incriminate himself than BB has. I find it odd that PMJ is pushing so hard for BB's lynch, he was made multiple large posts on BB and he hasn't really done much else. It isn't helpful, and if we lynch PMJ or BB it gives us the most information anyone else would be a shot in the dark. We lynch BB he flips town or we get lucky and he flips scum it gives us very little information (other than all he's done is pushed BB's lynch) . However, if we lynch PMJ and he flips scum than it clears BB and gives us some good information. If he flips town than BB is probably scum.

##UNVERB
##VERB: PMJ

This is quite the about-face. At the beginning of the day, Samwise was going along with everything PMJ said against Celever, even telling Cel to "stop avoiding PMJ's questions" or something to that effect, and ignoring it when Cel tried to ask the same things of PMJ. It's very odd that Samwise would go and change his stance on PMJ like this right after somebody brings up the possibility of him and PMJ being buddies.

2) employing the classic scum tactic of asking for opinions. Town doesn't care all that much if other people agree. They just state their own opinions and don't look too hard for validation.

This is NAI and I know for a fact bb does it all the time. So do plenty of other players.

What information have you got in relation to these two, then? How has Lele's flip changed your reads of those two?

If Lele had flipped town then bb would have been all but cleared in my view, bc of how vocal he was in Lele's defense (and he was being vocal in Lele's defense, even if it was implicit and he always made sure to add "but I still think he's scum and has to go"). Lele did not flip town. bb is scummier in my view because of the same defense. Ik he found a whole list of people (myself included) who at one point or another commented about the possibility of Lele flipping town, but bb actually did not have his vote down at the end of the Day.

For scattered, I'm reading him as town in light of Lele's flip because of his pursuit of Lele on D1.

Accidentally doing the right thing? Sounds like me in a nutshell :3 But anyway, I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone look back through older games to find evidence when they've been asked to find it in this sorta vein, and I don't wanna break that trend :U People end up with different impressions of people's metas anyway, but this has been established as bb's meta for like, years, so it's a little surprising you say you don't remember it Dx

I genuinely don't lol. Maybe it's just been too long since I've played with bb. I swear he's usually more committal than this though.

Samwise has always been a channel to lynching bb for me, because of connections I felt I'd noticed between the two of them, so my vote being on him was not me trying to backpedal off bb. However, I'm contemplating ditching both of them in favour of PMJ (btw the above two posts make me think Yog could be mafia if PMJ flips mafia, but that's tenuous).

Have you been noticing any connections between Samwise and PMJ?

 

[Celever]

And another thing about the reads list –– three of the players you listed not under vague/wishy-washy reads, you've read as neutral. Which is completely ridiculous. Neutral is the very vaguest and very wishy-washiest of reads.

I mean, he basically separated his reads into contributors and non-contributors (thought I disagree with some and think some of non-contributors could hop over to the contributors side). The headings are weird, but I figured he meant the players themselves have been vague and wishy-washy with their content, rather than the reads themselves are vague and wishy-washy.

If Lele had flipped town then bb would have been all but cleared in my view, bc of how vocal he was in Lele's defense (and he was being vocal in Lele's defense, even if it was implicit and he always made sure to add "but I still think he's scum and has to go"). Lele did not flip town. bb is scummier in my view because of the same defense. Ik he found a whole list of people (myself included) who at one point or another commented about the possibility of Lele flipping town, but bb actually did not have his vote down at the end of the Day.

I'm curious: why does Lele's flip make bb mafia and myself not? Cos I was the only one actually actively pushing for a different lynch (though arguably bb's defense of Lele without offering an alternative is what makes him scummier). Not that I wanna be scummy, but it's a genuine issue I have with PMJ's point on this as well as yours, as I defended Lele way harder than he did.

For scattered, I'm reading him as town in light of Lele's flip because of his pursuit of Lele on D1.

We have no guarantee that the mafians knew Lele was a part of their team, though, and on balance I would say the probability is actually that they didn't. So scattered on Day 1 could well have been mafia who thought he was pushing a lynch on a townie.

I genuinely don't lol. Maybe it's just been too long since I've played with bb. I swear he's usually more committal than this though.

Yeah, that part's true. He usually does get a little over-committal, if anything, so his being so aggressively non-committal is different. However, I don't think this changes between faction for him -- I guess he's just in a non-committal mood?

Have you been noticing any connections between Samwise and PMJ?

Not really, no. Why'd ya choose these two?

 

[Scattered mind]

Refers to the town as a separate entity; i.e., one he isn't a part of.

Not really indicative in this case, because the alternative is saying "we are packed with weapons" which might infer that he himself has a strong role for the scum to notice and kill.

Thoughts on the possibility that Lele didn't have connections with the scumchat during D1?

 

[Jabberwock]

I'm curious: why does Lele's flip make bb mafia and myself not? Cos I was the only one actually actively pushing for a different lynch (though arguably bb's defense of Lele without offering an alternative is what makes him scummier). Not that I wanna be scummy, but it's a genuine issue I have with PMJ's point on this as well as yours, as I defended Lele way harder than he did.

Basically, yeah.

We have no guarantee that the mafians knew Lele was a part of their team, though, and on balance I would say the probability is actually that they didn't. So scattered on Day 1 could well have been mafia who thought he was pushing a lynch on a townie.

I completely forgot about that. That does change a fair bit and now I might have to actually go back and reread scattered's posts. Dx

Not really, no. Why'd ya choose these two?

Post #512. Also mord just resurfaced the possibility.

 

[Luispipe8]

Came too late to my house yesterday and had literally half of this post written when the forums just farted around midnight... >.< At least I saved a draft. Now let's see:

Explain why you think bb is a worse lynch.

Explain why you think bb's a better one.

Ok, this interchange was outright absurd, can't you just answer and not being part of a "no, you first" contest? ._.

This is probably the scummiest thing you have said this whole game. We have two days full of posts, reads, and votes to look back on. The scum could all submit no action and we would still not be in RVS.

You should be chomping at the bit to lynch someone you said was mafia, especially because I won't budge for your hokey-ass case on Samwise, and double especially because I know you'll be salivating at the idea of stringing me up if he flips town. (He won't, so I'm not worried in the slightest.)

It's straight up ignorant to assume we will be lacking in leads once bbninjas dies.

This. With the current gamestate, all of our current lynch candidates will give is /any/ sort of information.
And that is if whatever jibberish Lele said yesterday and his "reads" post isn't enough already.
(Also, I too find that "slip" of Samwise ridiculous. Akin to how people almost lynch me last game just because I sad "poison" :facepalms: )

I never said there was. I said there were better options: not that he's a bad one.

I'm still baffled to see how people still think that we could do anything else but lynch a mod-confirmed scum. The only other reason is that we (somehow) found out about dos' role in the same time and the debate would be who is a bigger threat.

- Luis - the only thing that I can remember about Luis is that he was vocal about how he'd be particularly upset at the hosts, if Lele flipped town. The fact that he was very vocal then, but died off in activity pings my scumdar. Similar to what scattered was talking about earlier, I suppose. Thoughts @Luispipe8? (Scummier)

First of all, in my defense (although it doesn't make your post false), I had the chickenpox for 2 weeks and then had (and still have >.<) to catch up with 2 weeks of class while still beign relatively weak, so I'm hoping my activity will be back to normal once we enter Day 3.

But now, about the Lele flip, I'm just glad it worked out that way and that the hosts weren't fooling us hard. Also, the scum hit the indie (or at least one of them, if there's more than one), so bonus points.

(Of note is that the players who appeared to have no qualms whatsoever, were scattered, Luis, PMJ, Aqua and Yog.)

Which of course, should have been the right course of action considering it was info posted by hosts. If anything, the noting should address the players you mentioned a paragraph above (not necessarily only you and Cel, although truth be told yours are the ones being discussed the most rn).

This is particularly interesting because sometimes the mafia team doesn't find out who the traitor is, either; they only find out that they have a member of the mafia team detached from the main group, and not the identity of who that is. This means that reading into Day 1 interactions with Lele aren't necessarily reliable, but we can't know one way or the other.
.

Could very well be true, although there's 2 flaws in this:
1. We still don't know. For starters, Lele's role didn't /specifically wrote/ that and, even though, it doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the team didn't know. For all we know, the scum tean could have known and it was simply up to Lele to get out of the basement, which probably was what would send him to the scumchat.
2. And, even if scum didn't know Lele was their partner, they definitely did by Day 2 with his role reveal.
So even though Day 1 reads /can/ be iffy, all interactions in Day 2 can and should be taken into account. And specially in the case scum didn't know about Lele before the reveal, because their reactions and behavior shifts (if any) would be a good indicative.

On days 1 and 2 I found bb somewhat scummy, and this was before PMJ had ever posted so they were for different reasons. Right now, I have no real thoughts on him. PMJ vs bb is definitely scum-vs-town or scum-vs-scum (this being staged is like, 45% likely to me right now) but it's too much of a mess to be able to gauge whether the mafian is bb or PMJ in a scum-vs-town. This is why I feel like it's very very possibly staged: usually one side comes from a place of being slightly more right or assured, whereas with these two they're both making as little sense as each other and grasping at things they have no business grasping at.
But I don't think it's productive to pursue either of them right now. A part of me wants to lynch PMJ so that the thread becomes less centralised, because he keeps pushing attention onto bb which is <i>really </i>unproductive and sets the town back massively, even if the guy is mafia.

Ok, what?! You say this is either scum-vs-scum or scum-vs-town, yet you say it isn't productive to go for EITHER? In your scenario, we could simply lynch both of them one after the other and we'd hit /at least/ one scum. You're making no sense.

 

[Yog]

What is NAI?

 

[Celever]

What is NAI?

Not Alignment-Indicative. @bbninjas or @Vracken could we add it to the werewolf terminology doc? :3

 

[Yog]

Yah please. I did look and couldn't find it <a href="http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/thr...-guide-looking-for-hosts.133735/#post-2806386">there</a>. Either that or refrain from using things not on the list.

Ehhh, in my experience it's quite a common scumtell. Not on it's own, but add it to the pile of other things about BB that seem a little off.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Vote Count 3​

@bbninjas (3): PMJ, Jabberwock, Yog
GekkisaiDaiNi (o): Acetainer_Samwise
Acetrainer_Samwise (0): Celever
Luispipe8 (1): scattered mind
PMJ (2): Acetrainer_Samwise

Abstaining:
@mordacazir, @Professor_jplap, @GekkisaiDaiNi, @Jadethepokemontrainer, @GM DracLord, @Luispipe8, @TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK, bbninjas, @mirdo,@OshaCraft360, Celever

Players yet to post four times today have been tagged and notified via Discord, along with the player who would be lynched if the day ended right now (bbninjas).

There are 24 hours left in the day, majority is set at 9 votes. If nobody gets to 5 votes by the end of the day, inactive players will suffer consequences. It seems to be no coincidence that every player to have cast a vote today is active, and all those that have not but one are barely playing the game. Regardless of faction, your vote is your weapon; by not using it you are squandering your way to win the game.

Mirdo has informed us that he will have decreased activity until the 22nd, which may cause him to miss activity thresholds. Some players, however, have been posting less than he will be able to and as such will be subbed out before him.
If anybody you know might be interested in being a sub, please notify them. We seem to be in quite some need of a few right about now.

 

[mirdo]

Post Count from Day 2:

Post Count total after Day 2

Have fun with this very important information. Hope you appreciate the afford. Have fun my helpful friends.

 

[bbninjas]

@mirdo; Some people have actively questioned you about how helpful your activity charts are, but you post them anyways and don’t respond with them? You don’t give any reads or commentary of any sort either, despite clearly spending the time to count each player’s individuals posts, which you probably started reading some in the process, so why haven’t you been able to give your thoughts yet?

(I have to check but I don’t think you’ve given your stance on the PMJ situation?)

 

[mirdo]

@mirdo; Some people have actively questioned you about how helpful your activity charts are, but you post them anyways and don’t respond with them? You don’t give any reads or commentary of any sort either, despite clearly spending the time to count each player’s individuals posts, which you probably started reading some in the process, so why haven’t you been able to give your thoughts yet?

Nah. It's not helping at all. But i do it anyway. Because why not.
Also counting =/= reading everything.

(I have to check but I don’t think you’ve given your stance on the PMJ situation?)

Nah. I didn't and don't have time to read into things. The only thing i kinda catched is that it moved over to a case on you and Celever?
Maybe? Who knows.

 

[bbninjas]

Nah. It's not helping at all. But i do it anyway. Because why not.
Also counting =/= reading everything.


Nah. I didn't and don't have time to read into things. The only thing i kinda catched is that it moved over to a case on you and Celever?
Maybe? Who knows.

Can you maybe just read the last page or so, and then ask a few questions please? That shouldn't take too much time, and right now we need some sort of info on you - since we barely have none.

 

[Yog]

So I'm still working through this thread as best I can, and the role-flavour has caught my eye. So the mafia are the Triumvirate, I think it's safe to assume this means there are three of them. Town are Loyalists. There was also Double-o-Squirtle, aligned with himself. I think with the numbers we have (20 at game-start), 3+1+16 is very unbalanced in town's favour. I expect there are additional independent factions to be on the alert for.

And then apart from Triumvirate & Loyalists, players are also divided into Populares & Optimates. e.g. Squirtles goal as an Optimate was to eliminate all the Populares. There are eight of these as stated by his role. So I assume 8 and 12 unless there's a third part to this too. I don't know if that's worth chasing up. It would be important if you had a role like Squirtle's, but it seems inconsequential to me so far.

Lastly, I would like to clear up this Basement thing since it's been mentioned that there is a possibility that the rest of the Triumvirate did not actually know Lele was one of theirs. And that becomes quite an important detail if the lynch of BB is based on his defense / avoidance of Lele. Sounds to me like the basement included three players total. And the two that are not Lele are confirmed as town to each other now. This is something that *could* be worth bringing to light *maybe*. We could have a pair of confirmed town, and we could get the rules of the Basement. And no-one can fake claim here so long as both live, as if one comes forward they can quickly be caught out. Maybe this explains the buddy-buddy nature of BB & Celever?

Obviously there are also risks involved as like Luxinity, they will quickly become targets by night for one. But we will have night targets regardless. At least if one of these came forward (not both), we can play find the lady with the Mafia wanting to target them, and any Doctor among us being able to bluff some protection this night or the next. We could also follow their lead if they are obstinently against one of our current options. Since they are town for sure, they should act with virtue, and virtue is truly the only good (to borrow a Roman-themed stoic paradox). This is an advantage we can leverage in interests of the town. I think one (not both), should come forward and let us know they were part of this basement without fully claiming the rest of their role. Let us know how the basement worked exactly, and get us a bit closer to a true understanding of what goes on at night.

 

[Acetrainer_Samwise]

This is quite the about-face. At the beginning of the day, Samwise was going along with everything PMJ said against Celever, even telling Cel to "stop avoiding PMJ's questions" or something to that effect, and ignoring it when Cel tried to ask the same things of PMJ.

I wasn't going along with everything he said. The only connection I have between PMJ is asking Cel to answer the question he asked.

I'm actually opposed to a BB lynch something doesn't feel right about lynching him that and he hasn't done anything blatantly scummy. There have been some small things here and there that look a little scummy but basically everyone has done that. The only difference is PMJ made a decent case on BB.


I know earlier I thought BB was a good option but after reading into it more he seems like he's genuinely trying to contribute maybe I'm wrong but I guess we'll see.

 

[PMJ]

Emphasis mine. You knew it, I knew it, Celever knew it, scattered knew it, Jabber knew it and I'd imagine that even Tapu knew it. No matter how hard anyone tried, Lele was going to get lynched. And that's the contradiction in this theory - it makes zero sense for me to stick my head out (it's not like it was subtle), hoping that some miraculous saviour would whisk in and risk their neck to push an entirely different wagon. I've bussed people before; yet this is the wagon that I decide not to bus, despite Lele being host-revealed as scum, and their lynch being essentially 100% supported by the town? That isn't WIFOM - that is common sense.

As an aside and interesting note point, this case on me relies heavily on there being a convincing argument for the first part of the case, that I was trying to prevent Lele's lynch, as this was the only justification that can be given for reading my other points in a mafian-light, or indicative bias. Without that, it severely dampens at the least, disintegrates at the most.

Just because Lele was gonna get lynched doesn't mean that you, as his partner, shouldn't at least try to get him out of it.

Okay, while I don't think this should be alignment indicative at all, let's entertain. I wasn't the only one who entertained the possibility of the flip being faked; in fact, I wasn't the first. In order: Jabber did (see: "it is worth noting", "no retroactive addendum"), Acetrainer did (see: "it depends on the basement chat"), Celever did (see: "he's not host-confirmed", "Lele would have just given up"), DoS did (more implicit, see: "bit...iffy // potential scum"), I did (see: "increasingly uncertain", "flip is fake"), GM Drac did (see: "the role is not really his"). Each of us still asserted that we think Lele should definitely be lynched today. So why is Cel and I an apparent scumbuddy, and not the rest of them?

Jabber: Never said he couldn't be
Samwise: Especially with his complete about-face and vote for me he looks more and more like actually good new town who is trying to contribute by posting reads and asking questions. His logic is all over the place and reads like someone who wants to help but doesn't know how best to do that. In the same post you linked he also voted for Celever, and one scum trying to save a mod-confirmed scum by voting for a third scum is a bit too convoluted even for me.
Celever: Prince of darkness, multiple people including Celever himself have pointed out that he was Tapu Lele's biggest defender
DoS: if he wasn't dead I would actually think he was town because of the kill attempt

I'm assuming that you were meaning "I think they will [defend only scumbuddies/defend buddies that are being lynched]" considering the context, but I'm not entirely sure.

Correct.

You probably didn't say it explicitly, it would be derived from the fact that you are pushing me today and not Celever; thus, you must think I'm scummier than Celever. Considering that the case on me is based primarily on my 'defending' of Lele, and that you've said similarly in regards to Celever, you must also think that I defended Lele more significantly / suspiciously than Celever to be pursuing me first.

Anyway, you're saying that you haven't gotten around to Celever's posts yet, and because you find I'm scummy, you haven't bothered looking into said posts right now (because there's no point pushing multiple lynches)? But surely in that case, you would already know the general gist of Celever's Day 2 posts, and would have seen he was much more actively 'defending' Lele. So it comes down to that bolded part - why do you want me dead (or want me to die first) more that Celever?

Because I looked at your posts first. They suggest you're scum, so I want to see you lynched. I don't want to risk pursuing other cases and have you weasel your way out of being lynched. Because if anyone else gets lynched then those people start getting discussion and it becomes far easier for you and your ilk to push discussion away from you (because look at all the shiny new information we have!).

In light of that, however, what are your thoughts on all of those players - and how they defended Lele?

I think anyone who defended Lele during day two is worth looking harder into, of course.

PMJ and bb stop talking to each other- everyone has enough posts from you to decide who they think is right. If not, they will ask or vote. Until that happens, you got no reason to keep discussing unless you are scum.

FoS for this, I don't like the idea of anyone telling people to not post.

Agreed. In fact I think PMJ has done more to incriminate himself than BB has. I find it odd that PMJ is pushing so hard for BB's lynch, he was made multiple large posts on BB and he hasn't really done much else. It isn't helpful, and if we lynch PMJ or BB it gives us the most information anyone else would be a shot in the dark. We lynch BB he flips town or we get lucky and he flips scum it gives us very little information (other than all he's done is pushed BB's lynch) . However, if we lynch PMJ and he flips scum than it clears BB and gives us some good information. If he flips town than BB is probably scum.

thanks for changing your vote I have questions for you.

How have I done more to incriminate myself than bb has?
Why do you think it's odd that I've spent day 3 trying to get someone I think is scum lynched? Do you think it's more townlike to push for several lynches at once?
Why do you think lynching bb gives less information than lynching me?
Do you know what a bus is lol?

Yeah I agree, it's not alignment indicative, but therefore neither is the inverse, which is what PMJ argued, and that was just expressing times where being assertive isn't preferable, which PMJ also argued for.

Where did I argue that not being assertive was, in itself, scummy?

Not only did Lele vote for me for the certamen, everyone in the chat did. Plus, the entire transcript of the QT was posted in the thread, which demonstrates that there was no opposition to me getting the certamen reward.

Not that I could find. dos quoted an excerpt from it and that is all I saw. If it's okay to quote posts from the certamen, just link to the qt (or link to the post where the entire transcript is posted).

Plus, he's using faulty logic exercises such as here where he uses Occam's Razor which, in mafia, is used exclusively by mafians when they're right in hindsight.

Don't be ridiculous, I'm talking about the hosts here. I don't think you have to treat the hosts as "bastard until proven otherwise".

And finally, his attempt to entirely discredit metareads as a tool is just.... unique? And the logic he's using in tangent with it is also really strange: he says meta reads pigeonhole players in playing certain ways, but actually the entire purpose of it is to allow for people to play with their own specific playstyles. The alternative would be, in a game where metareads are hypothetically never used, a game where everyone has a mutual idea of what a townie should act like and a mutual idea of what a mafian should act like, and any players who diverge from the townie mould would deserve to get lynched right there and then. And that's obviously not the game that mafia is -- or should be.

I don't subscribe to the idea that players should be able to excuse their scummy play by claiming that's just how they play. That doesn't help anyone. You could say and do all sorts of scummy things, then say "just my playstyle, bro!" to get out of it. And everyone's supposed to just accept it?

Remember, PMJ first posted at the end of Day 2 and in that time hasn't "really looked" at my posts, which is worrying as I'm one of the primary contributors to this thread; I'm sure no one would object to top 5. And, when people look through games, they tend to look at the most notable players first, and then get more obscure from there. So if PMJ hasn't "really looked" at the posts of one of the top 5 contributors to the thread, that means he's looked at less than 5 of them total. Which, finally, means this case has been made because PMJ wants bb to be lynched, and not because PMJ thinks bb is mafia: it would be a massive flaw in rationalism to tunnel bb as massively as he is right now without having read the posts of (m)any other people.

Lot of assumptions you're making there. bb's extensive post on Lele's flip possibly being fake is what got me looking at him harder. Enough of his posts were questionable to make me believe he was scum. Thus, I pushed his lynch.

Everyone take note of how Celever and bb keep saying the opposite, despite my clarifying it several times already.

@PMJ please post a full reads list of all players in the thread, with reasons given for your stance on each one. This is to ensure that you've actually read this game thread and, on balance, think bb is the best option, as opposed to the only one you've looked at so far.

But I already said he was the only one I looked at, didn't I? If anyone, you would be the next person I checked out.

I'll get your list, though. I am replying to everything else others have said first.

I also noticed that, and the fact that he said earlier that you are also scummy is really confusing. If PMJ have not read Celever's posts, how can he be sure he is scummy?

FoS. I answered this already. This is now the second time that I've seen you making uninformed posts.

On days 1 and 2 I found bb somewhat scummy, and this was before PMJ had ever posted so they were for different reasons. Right now, I have no real thoughts on him.

Sounds like a good excuse not to strengthen my case on your scumbuddy to me.

A part of me wants to lynch PMJ so that the thread becomes less centralised, because he keeps pushing attention onto bb which is really unproductive and sets the town back massively, even if the guy is mafia.

Great argument! Except it's wrong. You're operating under the assumption that my pushing of bb's lynch is a problem; that it's somehow stifling discussion. The opposite has proven to be true. It might have taken most of the game day, but other people are finally starting to post their thoughts. Like it or not, he's become the main d3 lynch.

Also, note how Celever accused me of wanting to lynch bb just because he was active, and now wants to lynch me for the same reason.

Refers to the town as a separate entity; i.e., one he isn't a part of.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Town

A general term to refer to everyone in the game, regardless of their alignment. For instance, "This Town will never be able to lynch anyone before deadline", referring to the player set as a whole.

Reach harder.