Lack of Input From PTCG Creators?

BobTheFlub

BobTheFlub

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Why doesn't the Pokemon TCG get nearly the amount of creator input than other games such as Magic the Gathering? Wizard's MTG Daily site puts out at least 2 articles every day, while the official Pokemon TCG site gets a usually outdated article only every once in a while. They also tend to show spoilers for their upcoming sets, while we scrounge around for new Pokemon scans.

Wizard's also usually justifies what they print and why they print it, and usually give developer input on what went into making the card. As far as I know, I haven't seen any such information out there about how Pokemon develops their cards. Do they have an idea of the metagame they're creating, with basics being superior to evolutions and very strong, perhaps OP, cards such as Pokemon Catcher? If they do understand, is it just about the money?

I'm really not trying to just complain, and I know that MtG has a much larger and generally older audience. I'm just aiming for a discussion on why we don't get nearly the amount of input on our game as I think we should.
 
I'm not trying to marginalize your post or anything when I say this, but:

BobChao said:
Do they have an idea of the metagame they're creating, with basics being superior to evolutions and very strong, perhaps OP, cards such as Pokemon Catcher? If they do understand, is it just about the money?
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I think you nailed it.
 
I think they used to have an idea of the metagame they created back around Ruby & Sapphire up to Diamond & Pearl but after that they sort of shot everything out the window. Platinum block was balanced to some degree but the SP's hurt it more than anything else.

HeartGold/SoulSilver block was good up until Black & White came along where you see most of the problems with our metagame today. Gen 5 was supposed to be a "reboot" of Gen 1 so they looked back at Base Set of 2000 when the TCG was first released and implemented cards from those sets in our current sets which was a bad idea.

You DON'T reprint Gust of Wind, Item Finder, and Dark Vileplume in our current format. The deck we have currently close to being like Haymaker (Scyther/Hitmonchan/Electabuzz) back in the old days is probably now CTM (Celebi Prime/Tornadus/Mewtwo EX) which is actually more expensive than it's predeccesor.
 
DNA said:
I'm not trying to marginalize your post or anything when I say this, but:


I think you nailed it.
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Was hoping it was a little bit more than this, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I just wish that the players and the makers weren't so disconnected I suppose.
 
I definitely enjoy playing both, I picked up Magic after I stopped playing Pokemon a few years ago, but now I'm trying to get back into Pokemon too. I feel like back when I played in the EX sets there was a lot more room for building the deck you wanted to build too, and Magic seems to hit that every set. There are still decks that are better than others, but not as big of a gap as I've noticed with today's Pokemon format.

I do think that it's easier to be competitive in Pokemon though, and I kinda like the tournament structure more. I can't always make heads or tails of Magic's tournament structure.

Also is rhetorical really the right word? I really was asking if there was a reason behind it, even if there potentially isn't a good answer or an answer at all.
 
Thats just the word that came to mind. I like magics lrize support, but pokemons community :/
 
BobChao said:
Was hoping it was a little bit more than this, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I just wish that the players and the makers weren't so disconnected I suppose.
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I wish that too. The thing is that it isn't the players' fault - we like to be involved in the game, but to see the bogus moves they keep doing show that they really don't care about what we, the playerbase as a whole, think.

It's far too obvious that they're marketing it almost exclusively towards children now. Before, it was something for everything to enjoy equally. Now it's a bit like that, but you can catch a lot of hints going off. (Big tip-off: Children obviously like big numbers. The solution? Make Basics with gigantic amounts of HP, making evolution useless. They're making the TCG too much like the VG when the mechanics for both are UTTERLY different.)

The state of the metagame is hurting as a result. Gust of Wind worked back in the day because there were very few sets to work from and everyone was pretty much on an even keel. That's no longer the case, and hasn't been for years. Same thing with giant Basics - in fact, Electabuzz and Hitmonchan were not that far above other Basics (70 HP wasn't too much higher than 50), and they were still outclassed by Evolutions power-wise (in both HP and attacks, evolutions were superior still); the difference was that Electabuzz set up a bit faster.

Instead we're getting big Basics that are actually MORE powerful than evolutions. 130 HP? That's equal to a Stage 2's HP, and given how ridiculous Outrage can be it gets even worse. And now we have Basics with as high HP as 180. A couple years ago, the highest-HP card that saw much play was Regigigas LV.X at 150, and even then he's still pretty balanced. Now we have Mewtwo, which has literally no counters except for maybe another Mewtwo. The glass ceiling is broken, and it's not funny anymore.

Heck, if Magic weren't too expensive and I found a lot of people around me that play it, I'd probably start playing that, because at least the developers care about what we think. (YGO does to an extent as well, or so I hear.) I definitely respect them for that and I tip my hat. It's just Pokemon is way too secretive about things and we don't know what's going on until it's too late.

Sigh, now I'm getting into complaining. I'd better cut my post off here before I ramble.
 
No, you definitely brought up a lot of good points. Most of the legendaries in the TCG have always been about subpar or so, or only good in niche situations. There are some exceptions, I can definitely think of a few that did work and play well, but weren't usually overpowered. But almost all of the legendaries in the BW sets have been extremely playable, to the point that the majority of decks play them. That definitely seems like a play towards children, because little kids are always obsessed with the big strong legendary Pokemon.

Kind of off topic, but I wonder how playable Mewtwo EX would be if its first attack was {P}{C} or {P}{P} instead of {C}{C}. I'm sure it wouldn't be casting its giant shadow over the metagame if it was.
 
If you break it they will buy it until they get what they need.
I like to apply this to Mewtwo EX.
 
The main difference between Pokemon and Magic is of course the fact that the people we'd be in contact with would have little to no influence over the actual cards being made.
 
that is a very good point. We are simply the secondary/aftermarket consumers of Pokemon.
Japan is where you have to go to talk to the creators of the tcg. Of course, Im pretty sure they do alot of market research and campaigns for their customers to find what pokemon they like and want to see as well as tournament and competitive analysis to see what cards will improve the game and not break it
 
I'd like to think that the creators, to an extent, care about the game, and I offer Claydol GE as proof of this.

I believe this was made with the sole purpose of hard countering Absol SW, which was running so rampant when it was released that people were calling for its ban due to its ruthless first attack.

One set later, here comes Claydol, with a power that completely ruins Baleful Wind and a Fighting type that Absol just happens to be weak to. And just like that, Absol disappeared from the format.

I believe if Mewtwo-EX and friends really become a problem, we'll see it get fixed one way or another.
 
That was then.
This is now.

They cared then.
They don't care now.
 
PMJ said:
a Fighting type that Absol just happens to be weak to.
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lol. I've never heard of Claydol actually attacking in a game. However, I once loaded up energy on one in case I needed to but still.

However, I do agree with the argument that Pokemon (to be specific, TPCi) needs a metagame testing laboratory type of thing, and if they already do, a better one.
 
Well yeah, people just whored out the power. But the fact remains. They could have made him Psychic instead!
 
The people who make the cards do put up a lot of information regarding decisions that were made, however those people are all Japanese, so 99% of people here can't read what they have to say.

The people running pokemon.com have absolutely no say in what cards get made.

If any big issues do arise, a lot of the higher ups will often post on PokeGym forums in order to try and explain things are resolve issues. To say that they don't care anymore is ridiculous.

Remember when Black and White rules were introduced (which they had zero control over), and people started worrying that the format would be ruined due to Sableye dominating. Remember what they did? They collated the results from all the Battle Roads to see how much of a problem it was and announced an early rotation, prior to US Nationals and Worlds. They also allowed international Nationals to run MD-CoL as the format so that they didn't have to use Black and White rules.

In short, if you think Magic is so much better than Pokémon, go and play Magic. And take your negativity with you.
 
The people who make the cards do put up a lot of information regarding decisions that were made, however those people are all Japanese, so 99% of people here can't read what they have to say.
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You do realize that alienates half the player base, right?

I'm very well aware that PCL is involved with Japan, but the problem is that they're only involved with Japan. That causes many of us to be rather dissatisfied with how things are run, as you can probably see.

Remember when Black and White rules were introduced (which they had zero control over), and people started worrying that the format would be ruined due to Sableye dominating. Remember what they did? They collated the results from all the Battle Roads to see how much of a problem it was and announced an early rotation, prior to US Nationals and Worlds. They also allowed international Nationals to run MD-CoL as the format so that they didn't have to use Black and White rules.
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Although that's true, they only did that to fix a problem that they themselves created - allowing trainers to be played on the first turn again. Sableye or not, that's a silly thing to do - it basically removes the advantage of going second; before, there was no real push one way or the other if you went first or second, and thus it was a fair trade. Now, who cares? Just hope you get lucky and go first every game.

In short, if you think Magic is so much better than Pokémon, go and play Magic. And take your negativity with you.
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I'm way too much of a diehard to do something like that, but if I see a problem, I'd like it addressed. I'm no hypocrite - only a concerned player.
 
Wow, uh, way to twist my words a lot. :/ I know that the community is still helpful in a lot of the on-goings of the TCG, and I definitely appreciate and respect that. I know that the English side of Pokemon doesn't get much say in anything. That's not to say that they can't translate and post at least some of the things that the Japanese do, say, etc. And I was definitely not being negative, or at least trying not to be, just asking a question and seeking discussion. I play and enjoy both Pokemon and Magic, and I understand that they both have good and bad points to them.
 
This actually comes down to the differences in how American businesses and Japanese businesses are run.

American businesses tend to be very involved with their customer base. That's because customer loyalty in America is low (compared to other wealthy parts of the world), meaning people will frequently turn to a competitor's goods or services at the drop of a hat. American companies have to bend over backwards to keep the customers they have while creating new ones. That means understanding their customers intimately. Failure to do so means the company collapses. Such is the case with Borders, for instance. It went out of business where Barnes & Noble survived because Barnes & Noble realized Americans are turning to digital media for literature--tablets, e-readers, and electronic pads--and made the Nook, whereas the higher-ups at Borders adapted too late. Borders's customers had trickled over to Barnes & Nobles over the past few years, and by the time the Kobo showed up at Borders, the damage had already been done.

However, in Japan, products are associated with the companies that make them. Once they build up a customer base, that base is secure because company loyalty is high in Japan. As a result, there is little need or desire for market research--the people in executive and managerial positions will do whatever they feel is best for the company. That is, company decisions are not based on customer input, but on hunches and innate ability to read people. (And yes, many Japanese are totally baffled as to why everything is so cheap in America while offering comparable quality.)

In addition, there are two other factors at work here that pervade outside of businesses: In Japan, you are expected to not interfere with other people. For instance, you don't just talk to someone next to you in a bar--that is seen as interference. (This is why, for instance, we have the stereotype of Americans in anime just sidling up to whoever is next to them and won't shut up.) Market research there is seen as intrusive and rude, especially direct contact such as in surveys and focus groups. Few people in Japan would volunteer for such things. What market research there is always indirect: Revenues and losses, sales, general public perception, and mention in other media (such as the news).

The other thing is pride. Most big Japanese companies take pride in what they do being Japanese, want their products and services to be superior to those overseas. I mentioned in another topic about One Piece DVDs and how bland they look--the reason for this is because Toei Animation, in their contract to FUNimation, gave restrictions in such a way so as not to outshine the domestic Japanese DVD releases. Same goes for special features: Look at the packaging for any DVD or Blu-Ray from Japan and see how devoid they are of extra content. There is actually a lot of extra content for popular things, but they're kept Japanese-exclusive. Say what you want about Dragon Ball Z: Evolution; 20th Century Fox was required to show it in theaters in Japan before anywhere else because DBZ is a Japanese thing. This means that if they're going to make a product better, Nintendo included, they're going to make it with the Japanese in mind almost exclusively. (The exceptions are companies like SEGA and Toyota, which are more popular overseas--it's basic logic, after all.)

In short, it's considered a tremendous insult of insults to take advice or suggestions from gaijin.

(As far as Nintendo goes though, Satoru Iwata is something of an exception to this, considering he seeked the help of Clayton Christensen to make the Wii. Iwata has no say in how the Pokémon TCG goes though. As long as it's turning a profit, he doesn't care how it goes one way or the other.)
 
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