• When creating a thread in the Deck Garage, make sure that you post one deck per thread, you use the correct prefix, you have the set name/card number next to each card, you give a strategy for non-metagame decks, and give translations for all cards not available in English.

    When posting in a thread, be sure to explain all your suggestions thoroughly. Additionally, do not ask for advice in another member's thread.

and yet another ho-oh ex deck

Hey, I plead the first (as in the first ammendment)! I have only ever tried to be helpful; Cities is this weeked, and I'd rather you find out the easy way, right now, as opposed to the hard way, during a competitive match. If you can't handle constructive criticism, then that's really your problem and not mine. If you can't handle constructive criticism, then you probably don't need to be posting in this forum. Notice how when I said "run more Supporters" I provided evidence and examples how it would actually be beneficial for you. If you find that annoying, you're really missing the point. (I mean, would it really kill you to read a few words you don't agree with.) And you have yet to explain why you don't run out of Supporters other than you just don't, and I don't buy it. If I did, I would gladly let you be. Of course, at the end of the day, and I've always said this, the choice is yours to make; I just want you to be informed when you make it.

Yours Truely,
 
spiritomb said:
Anyone, is there a way to block certain people from posting on this thread (mora)?

ohohohohoho

Anyway, if you don't want N (which you do, how are you gonna get rid of your opponent's 20 card hand late game when they have the win?), then you should run AT LEAST Skyla or Bianca or anything.
 
Guys, by not junipering when I want ruin the consistency of the deck. My experience with the deck confirms this. If I random receiver into a "n" or a Skyla I am then screwed. . Mora, it says in the forum rules to be constructive to the deck and the restrictions (no matter how stupid they may seem) the original poster posted. If u can't abide by that then you are spamming. You are not being constructive at all.
 
Mora is being constructive to this deck. It would be constructive to run more supporters so that you can set up faster.
 
Alright.

You can listen to me if you want. You can call me an idiot, you can say I'm not being constructive, but I do know some of what I'm talking about, so hopefully you'll take some my suggestions into account. You may also completely ignore me. It doesn't affect me one way or another.

This deck is all about speed, consistency, and fast, hard hitting attackers that can do a lot of damage while taking quite a beating themselves before they go down. After they do go down, you'll have a Ho-oh standing by to pop right back up with more energy and start pounding away at them again. That being said, the attacker line is somewhat lopsided. I understand why Rayquaza may be appealing, but 40 early on is not very much in today's game (despite a few donking scenarios) and even though the two discarded cards can help, it's not worth a near useless attack to get them in the discard. The 4 Rufflet also needs to go. Again, I completely understand the premise of using it, but this deck doesn't like set up attacks, it likes high damaging attacks and it likes them very early. Running 4 Ultra Ball should be completely fine for searching and discarding Ho-oh's. I do like the inclusion of Sigilpyh though; it brings quite a bit to the table against decks that don't have much of a non-attacker option. I might cut it down to one, but it's really up to you (that's not a major issue at the moment).

Now, for adding more attackers. I know you have Sigilpyh as a counter to Mewtwo, but Mewtwo doesn't just have to be a counter to himself; he's a fantastic main attacker also. He puts on the early game pressure that this deck so desperately loves, craps on decks that have a difficult time swarming Mewtwos of their own (such as Keldeo/Blastoise), and is just overall fantastic. I don't think this deck functions well at all without at least two of it. For another attacker, Terrakion NV is great. It can do a fast 90 damage with the use of Energy Switch, it really hurts Darkrai decks, and is again an overall great attacker. It also helps set up the seven prize scenario, where your opponent has only taken five prizes but now is faced with KOing an EX.

Now for the trainer line. To start, I'll dive right into the topic that you don't want me to talk about: supporters. I normally would not argue with someone's final decision with their deck (especially considering you've put up quite a fight for this as I've seen), but supporters are a main focal point for any deck, and running only 4 Juniper is something I can't stand by and let go. For starters, scrap the Xtranciever. It's extremely flippy and using a card that is directly designed to add consistency to a deck that requires a flip is extremely redundant and there is almost no point to it. I know you don't like Random Receiver, which is why, in fact, I'm going to suggest not using any kind of Supporter Search at all. Instead, as has been said, run more supporters. While 4 Juniper may seem like enough, it's very difficult to draw into a 4 of-card often enough, even if you are running 4 Xtranciever like you are currently doing. Here's what I propose the supporter line be:

4 Professor Juniper
4 N
3 Bianca
2 Skyla

This is 13 supporters, which doesn't feel clunky but doesn't feel skimpy on the supporters also. It also forgoes the use of Random Receiver, meaning you never have to worry about hitting a supporter you don't want at a bad time. While you may want to Juniper often (to get those Ho-oh's in the discard), the other supporters help to give you a chance when you don't have access to the Juniper. N and Bianca both do a fine job of giving you some more/different cards, and will eventually help you get the Juniper and everything else you may need. Skyla is nice because it search out your deck for any trainer you want and can snag the last card of a big combo for you. Energy Switch, Ultra Ball, or even a Juniper for the turn after if you're lacking in cards. Again, I know you really don't want to run more supporters, but you won't be getting the cards you need often enough with only 4 Juniper.

For the items, to start, take out the Enhanced Hammer. It's super helpful in many situations, but no matter how good it may be, it IS situational, and as a general rule of thumb you want to focus on the decks main strategy rather than include cards that may help you at random times. You should also take out the Pluspower, as this deck has a plenty high damage output already and doesn't need Pluspower to boost that. It's nice for Terrakion against an Eviolited Darkrai, but Tool Scrapper does the same thing in that situation. Speaking of Tool Scrapper, I would cut it down to one because you can now search it out with Skyla if you really need to, and your probably not going to need to scrapper away more then two tools a game unless it's against Garbodor, who is very rare to see these days. You should also bumb the Energy Switch count up to 4 just to make sure you can get those attackers running ASAP.

For adding trainers, the one MAJOR card that needs to be added is Pokemon Catcher. This is one thing that is an absolute must and cannot be left out. Argue all you want, but the simple fact is that it's probably one of the best, if not THE best card out there. From stalling your opponent to grabbing a KO on a damaged Pokemon that just retreated to KOing important support Pokemon like Eelektrik or the pre-evolutions of Hydreigon and Blastoise, this card has so many uses that I cannot think of one argument not max it out in every single deck except for those that run Sableye to re-use Catcher. This, along with the Supporter count, is one thing your deck has to change to function well. Ignore me if you wish, but you are going to learn the harsh truth of that as soon as you go to a competitive tournament. Anyway, for other trainers to add, a nice addition is Super Scoop Up. It allows you to get damaged Pokemon off the field, get a Ho-oh of the field (maybe one that you used merely as a source of energy for Energy Switch) and has a variety of other uses. In fact, many lists that I've seen run 4 Super Scoop Up because of the amazing synergy it has with this deck. It does have a coin flip, so it's not extremely reliable, but many times you may only need 1 or 2 heads during a game to accomplish what you need to. Lastly, add one Computer Search. Do I need to explain this? Getting any one card out of your deck AND getting to discard some cards with it is literally better than any effect of any trainer you have in this deck.

And finally, the energy. Instead of ranting more, I'm just going to dump a list of the energy line that works with the deck that I've "created" for you:

4 Double Colorless Energy
3 Fighting Energy
3 Psychic Energy
1 Grass Energy
1 Fire Energy
1 Water Energy
1 Lightning Energy
1 Dark Energy
1 Metal Energy

1 of each energy works fine, and while it may seem very low to you because of your extremely high current energy counts, you really don't need more (you'll find this is true after testing the deck for a while). The DCE is included to power up Mewtwo and many of your other attackers, such as Sigilyph and even an emergency Ho-oh if you need it.

Since I've given a lot of changes and you probably don't want to go back through them to try and change your decklist, I'll give you the list that I've had in mind while writing this:

Pokémon (9)
3 Ho-Oh EX
3 Mewtwo EX
2 Terrakion NV
1 Sigilyph DRX

Trainers / Supporters / Stadiums (35)
4 Professor Juniper
4 N
3 Bianca
2 Skyla
4 Ultra Ball
4 Pokemon Catcher
4 Energy Switch
4 Super Scoop Up
3 Switch
1 Computer Search
1 Tool Scrapper

Energy (16)
4 Double Colorless Energy
3 Fighting Energy
3 Psychic Energy
1 Grass Energy
1 Fire Energy
1 Water Energy
1 Lightning Energy
1 Dark Energy
1 Metal Energy

Keep in mind this very flexible and you may include whatever extra stuff that you like while cutting things down that you don't like. It summarizes all of the cards I mentioned into one, clean list.

That's all the info I have. Keep in mind none of this was meant to be insulting or flaming in any way and that it is an attempt to give constructive criticism. If you have any questions, feel free to ask and/or PM me. I'd also be glad to play against you sometime on PTCG if you ever want testing. I hope you take the time to read this (as I spent considerable effort typing this out) and I hope this helps you in whatever tournaments you play in!
 
Way to long; didn't read it all.

I must of skipped this earlier, mewtwo ex is in the same deck as tornadus and Pokemon catcher.
My other deck (standard zekeels) is my main deck and I'm not scrapping any part of it to support this deck.


Also sigilyph is not solely a mewtwo counter. I mentioned it fulfilled that role.

If u knew I won't switch my supporter line, why would u suggest I do otherwise.


Nevertheless u have been the most helpful (until 5 paragraphs in; which is when I gave up reading). So if I should streamline my deck by taking away rufflets, what should I add instead? I would think that would ruin consistency.
 
spiritomb said:
Way to long; didn't read it all.

I must of skipped this earlier, mewtwo ex is in the same deck as tornadus and Pokemon catcher.
My other deck (standard zekeels) is my main deck and I'm not scrapping any part of it to support this deck.


Also sigilyph us not solely a mewtwo counter. I mentioned it fulfilled that role.

If u new I won't switch my supporter line, why would u suggest I do otherwise.


Nevertheless u have been the most helpful (until 5 paragraphs in; which is when I gave up reading). So if I should streamline my deck by taking away rufflets, what should u add instead? I would think that would ruin consistency.

Read the paragraph on supporters, and read the one on catchers (It would probably take you ten minutes if you took the time to read everything I had to say, but I can't force you to.) Those two things are extremely important to this deck. I completely understand that you are shaky to change something you feel like will work (I know the feeling myself when receiving advice) but I gave many many reasons to use them. Hey, you could even try it out and if you really hate them, go back.

And the thing is, while taking out Rufflets might ruin consistency, the supporters will help with that.

ANYWAY, if you insist on only running 4 Juniper, can you at least replace Xtranceiver with Random Receiver? You can't hit a supporter except for Juniper with Random Reciever the way your deck is currently, so it really does nothing different except eliminate the coin flip.

You need more of an attacker line over the Rufflets. Mewtwo EX and Terrakion NV make a nice inclusion, and you should certainly run them over the Rayquaza which is too clunky for this deck to make good use of.


EDIT: Noticed you're running 4 RR along with Xtranciever. Never mind then.
 
Just like Blah's well written advice, I bet you skimmed the rules as well. I'm impressed you managed to miss the very first rule. Shall I quote it?

Zorua said:
1. You must not deny all constructive criticism
Remember, when posting a decklist, most members will try to come and help your decklist. If you are only posting to show off your decklist, then why post at all? If you are unable to accept constructive criticism from other members, your decklist will be locked. It is okay to argue suggestions you do not agree with, but going out of your way to insist your decklist is perfect defeats the point of posting it in the Deck Garage.
If you break this rule: Violators will be notified via a post in the decklist. If this rule continues to be broken, a 10% warning will be given.

spiritomb said:
Mora, it says in the forum rules to be constructive to the deck and the restrictions (no matter how stupid they may seem) the original poster posted. If u can't abide by that then you are spamming. You are not being constructive at all.

Really? It says that? Seriously, I'd like to know where? I copied the paragraph to this post for your convenience if you feel up to reading it:

Zorua said:
Rules for posting advice:

1. Provide constructive criticism

Providing constructive criticism means that your post should in some way help the deckbuilder on their deck. Posting something such as "This deck is terrible. You should play something else." does not count as constructive criticism because why the deck was bad was not explained. The post also did not mention any way on how to improve the deck. Also, posting a compliment such as "Great job on the deck!" does not count as constructive criticism either, because this does not help the deckbuilder improve on his or her deck. More often than not, the decklist could in some way be fixed. By posting something that could help the deckbuilder, such as putting in a card and taking out a card, the post would then be considered constructive criticism.
If you break this rule: Violators will receive a 20% warning.

Not that I have to abide by your restrictions, but I do try to respect player's preferences in general. (I can't just suggest to take out Ho-Oh for Darkrai and Sigilyph for Hydreigon.) As much as it pained me to see the Xtransievers in your list, I didn't bother trying to persuade you otherwise because some things are due to how you play the game.

As for my posts not being constructive, they clearly are as they aim to make your list more consistent. It's not even like I said "more Supporters" ten times in a row. Each time, I tried to give additional reasons or examples why it would be better if you actually had Supporters so that it wasn't redundant. At one point, I even offered a compromise where you would have had 6 Supporters + 7 methods of getting Supporters which gave you significantly greater odds of hitting Juniper over N, and you're going to say it wasn't constructive? In my Ho-Oh build, this is what I've got:

4 Juniper
4 N
2 Skyla
4 Random Receiver
1 Computer Search

Notice they look nothing alike. I'm trying to be really lenient on the player preference aspect.

And if you're worried about this conversation (your part included) being considered spam (which I can justify it as being relevant and on topic since it all ties back to the 'more Supporters' issues and what you choose to include in your list), you're welcome to continue this conversation over PM or profile.
 
That's my understanding of constructive criticism. I didn't skip the rules.

Also every post I can remember here you have advised me to add more supporters when I said I would not. That is spamming. Or at least trying to entice a flame war.

I have even asked for you to test out my build thoroughly before you criticize. You have never said that you have. So who is being close minded? I've atleast tried the deck with more supporters. It wasn't good.


Also I only stopped reading blah's post actually cause he advised me to add more supporters.


I did read the paragraph on supporters.

Also I can't get anymore catchers at this time. I used to have 6, but I traded 3 to get a golden Pokemon catcher. If I could I'd collect 20 more catchers.

Did u not read the thread? Mewtwo ex is in another deck. It is staying there.
Blah said:
spiritomb said:
Way to long; didn't read it all.

I must of skipped this earlier, mewtwo ex is in the same deck as tornadus and Pokemon catcher.
My other deck (standard zekeels) is my main deck and I'm not scrapping any part of it to support this deck.


Also sigilyph us not solely a mewtwo counter. I mentioned it fulfilled that role.

If u new I won't switch my supporter line, why would u suggest I do otherwise.


Nevertheless u have been the most helpful (until 5 paragraphs in; which is when I gave up reading). So if I should streamline my deck by taking away rufflets, what should u add instead? I would think that would ruin consistency.

Read the paragraph on supporters, and read the one on catchers (It would probably take you ten minutes if you took the time to read everything I had to say, but I can't force you to.) Those two things are extremely important to this deck. I completely understand that you are shaky to change something you feel like will work (I know the feeling myself when receiving advice) but I gave many many reasons to use them. Hey, you could even try it out and if you really hate them, go back.

And the thing is, while taking out Rufflets might ruin consistency, the supporters will help with that.

ANYWAY, if you insist on only running 4 Juniper, can you at least replace Xtranceiver with Random Receiver? You can't hit a supporter except for Juniper with Random Reciever the way your deck is currently, so it really does nothing different except eliminate the coin flip.

You need more of an attacker line over the Rufflets. Mewtwo EX and Terrakion NV make a nice inclusion, and you should certainly run them over the Rayquaza which is too clunky for this deck to make good use of.


EDIT: Noticed you're running 4 RR along with Xtranciever. Never mind then.
 
I tried your deck with 4 supporters for 5 games on tcgo. I had at minimum, a 3 turn drought where I could do nothing due to the whopping 4 supporters. It won 1 game.

If you really don't want to add supporters, at least add 2 tropical beach so you can do something with dead hands.
 
konter5683 said:
I tried your deck with 4 supporters for 5 games on tcgo. I had at minimum, a 3 turn drought where I could do nothing due to the whopping 4 supporters. It won 1 game.

If you really don't want to add supporters, at least add 2 tropical beach so you can do something with dead hands.

And where might I find one of those?

5 games isn't enough of a testing ground. Though I wish I was a fly in that game.
 
5 games is enough when you run dry for 4 of them. And I'd suggest either buying them or building a deck that is capable of getting you to worlds and getting some.
 
spiritomb said:
Also every post I can remember here you have advised me to add more supporters when I said I would not. That is spamming. Or at least trying to entice a flame war.

Yes, but with each post, I built upon my argument instead of simply restating my thesis. And if you define a "flame war" as any statement you disagree with that you can't seem to shoot down with a valid argument, then guilty as charged.

spiritomb said:
I have even asked for you to test out my build thoroughly before you criticize. You have never said that you have.

And I started to do this, but I recently sprained both wrists, and with Cities right around the corner, testing my own list took priority. I believe someone already has though, so there you go.

spiritomb said:
I've atleast tried the deck with more supporters. It wasn't good.

I'm interested to know what the difference between me playing with more Supporters and you playing with more Supporters is because my Ho-Oh build actually won first place at Cities tonight.

spiritomb said:
Also I only stopped reading blah's post actually cause he advised me to add more supporters.

spiritomb said:
So who is being close minded?
 
Ok, Spiritomb, you're twisting every word that every person is writting.
YOU NEED MORE SUPPORTES, THERE IS NO DECK THAT RUNS LESS THAN 8 SUPPORTERS, DON'T YOU GET IT?
It's common sense man, please, stop being so close-minded, gosh...
 
Not at all; what I am implying (or, rather, adamantly stating) is that this is not a way to build a Ho-Oh deck or any deck in general. Ho-Oh is pretty versatile. You can have it with Mewtwo, Tornadus, Terrakion, Sigilyph, Bouffalant, Darkrai, Regigigas, Registeel, the list is endless, but the one thing all of the successful lists have in common is that they run at least ten actual Supporters. Being creative is fine; I applaud you for trying to think outside the box, but the endresult is a miserable late game.

Well, I'm done trying to convince you... unless I think of yet another reason you need actual Supporters, in which case I'll be back.
 
Ur only reasons have been that I will run out of a hand to often and u won, so my deck idea is horrible. Ur second reasoning has tunnel vision and ur first reasoning I have countered with that it ruins my consistency. U have been repetitive the whole thread mora, warranting me to respond repetitively. I am looking forward to a new reason.
 
Condensed arguments:

Post #2: You need more Supporters.
Post #5: 4 Supporters is not going to last you the entire game.
Post #9: Questions your logic.
Post #19: Explains how N isn't even a bad thing and offers a Supporter line that includes more Supporters but still has pretty good odds of getting Juniper instead of N, a compromise basically.
After that, I didn't make another argument for more Supporters.

Redundancy? I think not.

Back to the deck list, though, have you tried Super Scoop Up? It is a coin flip, but it is also nice prize denial in the face of Darkrai/Hydreigon, and since you'll always have Juniper, you can get it right back in the discard piled and use Rebirth. Just a fun notion to consider.
 
Super scoop up can't be rebirthed.


21, 28, 33, 36 all advise me to some degree to add some more supporters. So don't say otherwise. Also everypost here is u saying your ideas are better, I need more supporters, everyone supporting your opinions, you supporting others opinions or me defending my other posts. Also a few updates I've done.
 
Condensed arguments (amended):

Post #21: Handling constructive criticism.
Post #28: Clarification of forum rules, constructive criticism continued, lenience towards personal preference, addressing concerns of possible spam.
Post #33: Addressing claims of a "flame war", testing the list (lack of), trying to understand why you have bad results and I don't, close-mindedness.
Post #36: Supporter themes among successful decks... (Yeah, missed that :p)

But still, none of my posts were redundant.

You're missing the point. It's not my ideas are better, it's you're ideas aren't perfect, and I think you will agree with me on that. After all, if you thought your deck was perfect, then why post it in the Deck Garage to begin with? When I post a deck in the Deck Garage (and I've posted a good few), it's because I know it's not perfect, and there are a few things I would like others to help me think through. I'm not trying to say, "You're ideas are stupid; you're adopted," I'm trying to say, "You're going to run into some trouble doing things this way; here are all of the facts."

And it can be Rebirth'd if you have Juniper, but if you don't, it's a dead card. It is nice to pick up a damaged, energy-less Ho-Oh you started with, but I'm beginning to rethink relying on coin-flips. I flipped six tails over three turns on Rebirth :mad:
 
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