(1) Rules Changes Coming with X/Y TCG [9/27]

[Machamp The Champion]

Well, this is not something I expected.

The first turn rule is definitely better than what we have now, but it's not exactly the best option either. I still think the no trainers option would be better. Like, what kind of hand would you have to have to donk someone without playing items? Also, Tropical Beach is now way too good, and pretty much every player that can afford them will play them, and everyone who can't is even worse off than they already were. I really don't want to have to spend 900 bucks (accounting for the card becoming better) on three of them just to be on the same level of players who won them 2 years ago.

The Catcher errata is bad... for the current format. Depending on the cards the X&Y set's have, this could definitely be a change for the better. But something tells me cards like Genesect EX, Ninetales and even Escape Rope will become a lot more popular.

The Juniper/Sycamore thing doesn't make it look like the format's getting any better. And that Pokemon's running out of ideas. Juniper favors fast deck, since they can usually play all the cards in their hand before using Juniper. If the format moves more towards evolutions being playable again (which is what it looks like is going to happen), Juniper/Sycamore won't even be that heavily played. I fear that we'll be seeing a lot more unwanted cards from our current format being reprinted in X&Y.

 

[khit]

And did people play pokemon reversal?

No junk arm spam synergy + tighter decklists (think tool scrappers and tools) = pretty much no good player spamming the new (nerfed) catcher.

There's no way you can tell me being able to use a card more than 4 times makes or breaks its viablility, It's either a broken card, if you flip heads, or a completely wasted deck space if you flip tails. I'll leave the gambling to the casinos. I Like playing pokemon because I like making strategies, Nothing is more of a personal annoyance to me than not being able to formulate a strategy because you don't know whether you cards will actually work or not. A coin flip is a lazy way to "balance" a card one player can hit 5 heads, and the other 5 tails, that is not balance. Either don't make cards so powerful or make a card that is a hard counter to that card (ABILITY: None of your pokemon can be catchered out) If there was an ability like this, I would feel slightly better with catcher being less viable as you know it will either work or it won't, and you can plan for that. And let's not forget that we NEED catcher effects in this format. Without catcher the only playable decks would be blastoise, garbodor, and Zebstrika and Dragonite lock decks that you can never get around. Catcher allows many strategies to be playable, but also counterable if you play your cards right. I'm a big fan of the player who plays with more skill winning (Although bad draws will always be a factor, I'd love if drawing was the only element of luck in pokemon, but alas)

 

[adman]

Will the 1st turn rule be used at regionals?

 

[Lvl 100 Bidoof]

Will the 1st turn rule be used at regionals?

These rule changes take place in November. So, unless your regionals take place in November, I believe the current rules will be used.

 

[blargh257]

Ohohoho... man.
REUNICLUS TIME


In all seriousness, people kept telling me Catcher was good for the format. Now, it no longer exists. Those people are probably mad now.

 

[Lvl 100 Bidoof]

Ohohoho... man.
REUNICLUS TIME


In all seriousness, people kept telling me Catcher was good for the format. Now, it no longer exists. Those people are probably mad now.

Tbh, I'm pretty angry with their decision. I hope they at least provide reasoning for the sudden rule change.

 

[daoneandonly]

Will the 1st turn rule be used at regionals?

These rule changes take place in November. So, unless your regionals take place in November, I believe the current rules will be used.

If you read more carefully you'll see that this affects only the Japanese TCG starting November. So unless you live in Japan, this won't affect any of us here.
Though it makes me wonder if this has anything to do with the fac that they might be planning to even up the releases of the Japanese and western sets.

 

[DNA]

Catcher isn't good for the format per se, but at least it's better than Reversal.

 

[ECHOxLegend]

I'm just wondering if my flygon deck will finally work, because its so much fun when it does.

 

[ashtavakra]

Everybody in this thread is speculating cards getting stronger, I entertain the thought that this is the turning point that evolutions will begin to be a dominant force in the TCG.
Not being able to attack on the first turn most likely has NOTHING to do with the fact that more powerful cards are coming out. It is entirely more likely that this rule is being instilled to nerf the effectiveness of EX pokemon & give room for evolutions and other cards that are less likely to see play.
Competitive wise, you will be willing to have low hit point basics in your evolution decks because they will be able to survive and evolve through the first couple rounds, the rule change on catcher greatly improves this as well.
I believe the change is good, allows more cards to become playable and thus more different strategies opening up the game. I'm not saying there won't be a meta, but we will likely see in the competitive stage more rogue decks making top cuts in larger tournaments.

Furthermore, we need to quit worrying about what is coming out and begin strategies in new decks that will now be able to compete with the dominant EX & basic decks.
One change I think they forgot to give evolutions a COMPLETE chance at overcoming EX's would be reversing the ruling on rare candies and let us turn 1 rare candy out basics.

 

[ECHOxLegend]

Everybody in this thread is speculating cards getting stronger, I entertain the thought that this is the turning point that evolutions will begin to be a dominant force in the TCG.
Not being able to attack on the first turn most likely has NOTHING to do with the fact that more powerful cards are coming out. It is entirely more likely that this rule is being instilled to nerf the effectiveness of EX pokemon & give room for evolutions and other cards that are less likely to see play.
Competitive wise, you will be willing to have low hit point basics in your evolution decks because they will be able to survive and evolve through the first couple rounds, the rule change on catcher greatly improves this as well.
I believe the change is good, allows more cards to become playable and thus more different strategies opening up the game. I'm not saying there won't be a meta, but we will likely see in the competitive stage more rogue decks making top cuts in larger tournaments.

Furthermore, we need to quit worrying about what is coming out and begin strategies in new decks that will now be able to compete with the dominant EX & basic decks.
One change I think they forgot to give evolutions a COMPLETE chance at overcoming EX's would be reversing the ruling on rare candies and let us turn 1 rare candy out basics.

turn 1 rare candies are still no good for the evo vs evo matchup, yeah if you get it urn one then all the other player needs to do is get their candy but if you don't and the 2nd player does he can attack straight away leaving you at the disadvantage similar to if he went first and could attack first turn. I agree with you on everything else but I think turn one candies should be a no-no still on both sides.

 

[cardgjammer]

These rule changes take place in November. So, unless your regionals take place in November, I believe the current rules will be used.

If you read more carefully you'll see that this affects only the Japanese TCG starting November. So unless you live in Japan, this won't affect any of us here.
Though it makes me wonder if this has anything to do with the fac that they might be planning to even up the releases of the Japanese and western sets.

...true that...

but since xy sets will come out in feb in the us, who knows if the changes won't impact us until spring regionals, nationals, and/or Worlds???

^ Boy, where's Dialga when he's needed, if only to find out for sure?

 

[Otaku]

I think all judgements should be reserved until we know what the new meta looks like, they could be sitting back and laughing because we have no idea what the meta could possibly be and this could not be a big deal. Were the formats between gust of wind and catcher all that bad because I didnt really play back then?

Normally I would be inclined to agree that we should reserve judgment, but anymore I trust Game Freak and its subsidiaries to handle Pokémon the same way I trust the U.S. government to follow the United States Constitution: haphazardly.

Is it possible that the X&Y cards will somehow fix problems that have hurt this game since it began? Maybe, but it is unlikely. Similarly, while it is possible for the new cards to balance out the game in conjunction with the new rules, that requires them to somehow outmatch what we currently have while being better made and balanced than the old stuff.

First, some of the best formats happened roughly "in the middle" of the game. The original "format" of the game (before we rotated to the original Rocket-On Modified format) were a lot like the BW-On format; big Basic Pokémon dominated, sometimes backed by powerful Evolutions, and the game was brutally fast and unforgiving. Pokémon Reversal (what the erratum turns Pokemon Catcher into) actually dates back to when Wizards of the Coast ran the game. It was ignored... because it released alongside Double Gust, which was like Escape Rope if each player selected the opposing Benched Pokémon to bring up.

Until HS-On, there was always something clearly better than Pokémon Reversal to run: usually an Item, but sometimes a Pokémon (including simply having a huge sniping attack).

Catcher isn't good for the format per se, but at least it's better than Reversal.

It isn't bad for the format either. One of the things you learn playing TCGs, especially ones with more issues than Pokémon (hello Yu-Gi-Oh!) is that it is usually best to make sure that a card causing trouble is doing so directly. In this case, Pokémon Catcher isn't a problem; it is actually the solution to keeping Benches from being overly safe. Pokémon Catcher doesn't hurt Evolutions; bad design choices hurt Evolutions. When people complain about Pokémon Catcher KOing something, if they have a legitimate complaint it needs to be about whatever did the KOing unfairly. While it would remain an important card, think of how much less Pokémon Catcher would matter if a 2HKO was as "fast" as this game got?

The game's designers don't set it up so that all fully Evolved Pokémon are roughly equivalent, with balance coming from how each Stage must be run. If big, Basic Pokémon that don't Evolve lack small, effective attacks or first/second turn Energy acceleration, they can't hit before Evolutions set-up and in fact you'll want something else to be your opener. On the other hand Evolutions need their lower Stage (or Stages) to have useful effects, so they are worth playing. In a sense, it means one space "saved" for the Evolved line over a non-Evolving Basic Pokémon that can fulfill a similar function... possibly helping them to break even in card counts. Then remember to only give certain effects to Evolutions... namely effects that just shouldn't be available first/second turn of the game.

TL;DR: Pokémon Catcher has helped the game, not hurt it. What has caused the various problems is the same thing; bad card design and game management. Nothing I am seeing makes me think sets will stop being about 90% (yes, that's a guess) filler, or that Evolving Pokémon will stop being designed as filler (which drags the rest of the line down).

 

[Blui]

If you think Catcher being flip-based is healthy, I have a bridge to sell you.

Just to counter point; Do you think it's healthy that every deck essentially HAS to run catcher?

Well yes and no, in Catcher's case though I'm leaning toward yes. The card is keeping the format in balance and now they've removed it.

If you read more carefully you'll see that this affects only the Japanese TCG starting November. So unless you live in Japan, this won't affect any of us here.
Though it makes me wonder if this has anything to do with the fac that they might be planning to even up the releases of the Japanese and western sets.

...true that...

but since xy sets will come out in feb in the us, who knows if the changes won't impact us until spring regionals, nationals, and/or Worlds???

^ Boy, where's Dialga when he's needed, if only to find out for sure?

We're getting the XY Starter Decks on the 8th. The same day Japan is getting the Beginning Set. THe change is coming.

 

[Cortel II]

Well I like that they're bringing back the no attacking if you go first . It helps several ways, first it allows stage 2 decks to be run more often as you pretty much remove donking entirely , minus an absolutely tarrible hand. And it actually makes a play consider if they want to go first or second. but it hurts a lot of other possible set up decks and pokemon like Sableye, Victini EX and Tropious PLB.

I don't like catcher change, it'll still be a good card but I have a feeling a lot of people will be playing less or at least it's not going to be a 4of in every deck made. but as mentioned above, it brings up a bunch of issues for bench sitters like Deoxyes EX, Garbordor DRX, Mr. Mime ect. maybe this will mean Sniping pokemon will get more play? maybe not, hey maybe people will use Genesect EX G-Scope.

 

[Riskbreakers]

You guys know what's the best way to describe Catcher?

"Guns don't kill people. People kill people"

Catcher is a great card because it gives people something to think about when they construct their decks. As Otaku has wall of text'd awhile ago, it's the poor card design that's the problem here. Pokemon in Japan decided to do the stupid thing and penalize the innocent gun (Catcher) rather than penalize the guilty offenders that abuse the gun (Big Basic EXs that accelerate energy).

 

[daoneandonly]

I think Catcher is great for the mindset that Bench-sitters are never safe. Just the thought of that alone, made the game so much more interesting. Also seeing your opponent set up the perfect combo without any ability to prevent that from happening is the worst. I really think TPCi should've just buffed the upcomming form of Mega evolutions in the TCG instead of nerfing the cards that dominate the format today. Nerfing is pretty bad, especially since Pokémon Catcher just got reprinted last set.

PS RIP Turn 1 Moves like Call for Family/Raiden Knuckle/Emerald Slash. They should just go back to some kind of the 'No Supporter Turn 1' rule.

 

[Riskbreakers]

Pokemon Catcher is like our version of YGO's trap cards. It's one of the only few ways we get to interact with the opponent's board then they had to nerf it. :/

 

[Serperior]

Don't like the rules except for the obvious Sycamore/Juniper one. Don't really know if Catcher is worth the slots in the deck anymore - Escape Rope it is.

 

[daoneandonly]

Pokemon Catcher is like our version of YGO's trap cards. It's one of the only few ways we get to interact with the opponent's board then they had to nerf it. :/

Exactly. Pokémon TCG needs some form of board-control. Now the only that form of board-control we had is nerfed to be luck based. Like someone stated before in this thread, PTCG has the appearance of being entirely luck-based, and this isn't doing that any favours.

Next thing you know cards like Enhanced Hammer wil require coin flips too. Then it will really depend on who goes first, or rather second since this crappy new rule.