(1) Nintendo Follow-Up [9/21]

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I'm sure if statistics were gathered and tallied, it will show that no doubt, fan sites are largely responsible for game sales.
If it weren't for sites like Pokebeach and Serebii, their wouldn't be as many Pokemon fans as their is nowadays.
Nintendo, you need to acknowledge these sites for their vast contribution to sales and promotions of your products!!!
 
Personally for me all my previous pokemon game purchases weren't based on data from fansites. Rather it was the fansites that provided "after sales service", for instance, EV/IV data, moves, abilities, locations for whatsoever, etc.

Somehow I think that is one of the stuff that the official people really don't acknowledge. I mean, you don't even get this sort of in depth coverage from Prima's friggin strategy guide..

Still, I do think the majority of the fanbase would've known about or purchased the new games anyway, even without a fansite telling them to. Pokemon is already that popular. Plus in this digital world today, we have online journalism sources (eg. IGN) which will spread the word even if no fans do.
 
So actually... WPM would need to be a Japanese site just to post BW pics just because the game hasn't been released in america? lol :b
 
I really don't understand Nintendo's problem with everything, they've never had an issue before. And with the internet being as...well, internet-ish as it is, they should know by now that this is useless.

Like WPM said, if Nintendo would release the game worldwide at once, they wouldn't have to deal with this, and certainly there would be substantially less piracy. I imagine people who pirate now won't necessarily buy the games later since they've already played it- but would buy the game if it came out sooner.

Also, what are they going to do with all the fanart across the net? I saw WPM switched out to the Zoroark banner- will Nintendo take action on sites like deviantART?
 
Couldn't you get a .jp domain, host all the images there, and then place links on your .com page? I believe that, if you don't actually host the images on your website, it's not your problem. And seeing as it IS legal to display it in Japan... a .jp domain would fix everything. Right?

pokebeach.jp is even available. :p


P.s. About the fact that you are not allowed to post the sprites, and other websites are. This could have to do with the abundance of in-game information that you posted. They can't target you for everything, because you are protected by fair use. BUT you can only display so much. So I think they can't target the other websites, because they ONLY posted the sprites.
 
They normally target the biggest consolidated sources of info. Individual small sources probably could get off the hook purely by virtue of obscurity. Veekun's sprite montage is still online, for instance, and those arent even low res photos of some guy's DS, those are actual stuff direct from ROMs
 
This is all stupid i agree with everyone, it's publicity which is good publicity and i really like WPM(even though he never responds to me) because he's a cool guy but i wouldn't go to far as to say i love him lol.
 
Just signed up to express my sympathy in this situation. I side with every single point you've made, and I too would likely be heartbroken had Nintendo done this to me if I were in your position.

And as far as ROM usage goes, that's a grey area I suppose... But at least you have the stones to admit it was/is done unlike some other(s) who lie shamelessly to cover that fact up.

More power to you.
 
Wait a minute. So... if we're going off the assumption that the copyright infringement is because Black and White has yet to be released outside of Japan -

Does that mean that every other site which covers games exclusively released in Japan is breaking copyright laws?
 
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you here WPM. You having the images up is both an infringement of copyright and a threat to Nintendo.

I think it's pretty clear that if you take images of every character in a game where there are hundreds, in a game that has either just been released or isn't released, depending on your interpretation of the law(which, by the way, probably isn't as good as the qualified lawyer's who is currently hired by Nintendo!) is a violation of copyright, or some other complicated facet of the law. Take away Pokemon and I don't think anyone would be disagreeing. But, you're being affected by it, so you only see your side of it and don't really give any thought beyond that. It's alright, it's human, and we've all done it and do it every day.

So, they have the right, I think we should be able to agree on that. But why would they want to pull out their images from your site? Aren’t you helping the market, letting all the fans see the new Pokemon?

Well, no, not really. You see, the members of the site are an insignificant part of the market, and a part of the market that are going to buy the games anyway. Their reputation with you doesn’t matter as much to them as their reputation with their target audience – an audience which, mostly, aren’t even legally old enough to be part of the forums.

Now, this audience are young, and undedicated to the series. If they see images of the cute little Pokemon, they’ll want the games now. If they find out the games don’t come out for another 4 months, they’ll just forget and move on. This is why they have to prepare the market for their new release – trickle out little bits of information to build hype in a controlled manner, then let it all loose when there’s an actual product to buy. That’s why Japanese images are good, but American images are bad. Yes, in this big mass of information we call the “internet” anyone can get to anything, but that’s if they know how to or care enough to. A hard-core teenage fan will always find the information – but a little kid will only find it if it’s right there, on a non-obscure site in a language they can read. This is also probably why big sites like Bulbapedia haven’t been contacted; what child would want to wade through that boring site? It’s a useful resource, but very bland.

Now, as for your idea of an international release, that is simply unreasonable to expect. Different markets call for different releases; it is no coincidence that so many(every?) Pokemon games are released around the same time of year for Japan and America. I can’t give you an exact reason, because it’s a Nintendo thing, but there is some key point about releasing the games at those times that makes it the best time to do it. They don’t release the games as quickly as they can; I mean the second Phoenix Wright was apparently translated entirely in a few weeks but not released in America for nearly a year(?) afterwards, because they had to release it at the right time to make the most money possible. No, they release the game when their research/past experiences/whatever else says they will have the most purchases. It’s a tricky and calculated move that can’t just be changed to accommodate some fansite.

I really don’t like your attitude towards the whole thing; you’re coming off as whinging and very selfish. No-one from Nintendo is attacking you, which, judging from your Ditto “rebuttal”, is what you think. In fact, you tried to bait that lawyer and he was not only reasonable to you in his response but a bit forgiving; you’d just acted all high and mighty about an issue you were really wrong about, yet he accepted it and didn’t take down the whole site! (Which, by the way, I’m sure Nintendo would be allowed to do, but they never will because they aren’t petty.) The lawyer probably wasn’t more specific about what you can and can’t do because he doesn’t call the shots, he just writes the paperwork, and because every right he gives you is taking one away from Nintendo and making more room for loopholes. Don’t shoot the messenger, especially a very nice one with a perfectly fair message!
 
Maybe you may not show the new Pokémon so no one can see how fugly they are XD

I can understand your "rage" and anger, but I would trie not to start a fight with Nintendo since there the bigger ones, with the expensiv lawyers (keep in mind, lawyers not only one little man...No an army for **** sake! ;P)

Some sites haven't been "exposed" until now, but they will, it's quit stupid, but you can't change it.

The release thing is really something you should think about, Nintendo, since translation can't take 1/2 year.
 
I luv u WPM.. I'm just wondering, what's the big deal about posting the images of the pokemon genV? when actually WPM is just giving us the information we want that we've waited for so long.. what's the problem with that? we all deserve to know if the game is worth buying, and WPM just helped us to know that. In my own opinion, pokemons of generation V is not that great, most of them are a total CRAP and fugly. Pokemons used to be simple in design but still cool enough to catch our interest, but the generation V pokemon designs are most likely digimons(but not all, some of them still feels like pokemon).. the designs of genV pokemons are getting far away from what a pokemon used to be(tail with turbine or booster, wearing taekwondo uniform, something like a daughter of barbie/bratz, a robot-like/machine-like creature... etc.), what are them, digimons? maybe that's the reason why Nintendo is making this kind of act because posting those images may ruin evrything.. but the thing is, Nintendo is very disappointing on what they did and not fair for letting other sites use the leaked informations.. the game is already out in japan and they can't stop the spreading of informations from other gamers.. we're already in the techworld, as the others said, once you post it in the internet, you can't do anything to stop it..
 
Early images make some players download the ROMs, and playing ROMs makes some players not buy the real games later. I think that's what the lawyer meant with "substantial damage".

The problem is just, they're too lazy for searching and taking down all the ROM publishing sites. It's a lot easier to go for the public sites.
 
The American law regarding fair use reads as follows:

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Clearly there's no straight forward definition for fair use, it all relies on perspective and opinion. But since Pokebeach is a news site which is also dedicated to research in both the TCG and video games, their case is applicable to this law. As explicitly stated in the law, unpublished work is not excluded from this law. The only logical reason for Nintendo to do anything would be because of (3), but Pokebeach in particular had not posted that many (if any) pictures that were substantial in portion to the amount of content in the game. Even if all the sprites are posted, the amount of information they provide pales in comparison to what one would experience by actually playing the game. The reason Nintendo has suddenly cracked down on this issue is beyond me, but makes me wonder if they've changed their legal policies since HGSS were released. Of course this is all just my opinion. Feel free to rebut.
 
the peeps at Nintendo and this lawyer guy are a bunch of idiots...it makes me really said that used to fantasize about working for them(or Game Freak)someday

Luckily i PDF'ed our Isshu list + Sprites & Stats b4 all of this went down, and a lot of other fansites still have sprites and screenshots up...i downloaded the raw sprites so i have those too...

BUT Pokebeach is my home and i'm really ticked off that they targeted us in the first place, its like what harm is spoiling everyone, this way we know what pokemon we're gonna try and get on our teams, heck i was on Smogon the other day and thanx to the leaked stats they're running simulations on the new metagame and how the B&W pokes will tie in, and they're trying to build statistics...

I cannot believe nintendo is attacking its fan's of all people...just for pictures of their new game, even after its officially released in japan...like seriously...wth...they don't realize that we're like journalists this is our job to report the news....
 
The American law regarding fair use reads as follows:

107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.


Clearly there's no straight forward definition for fair use, it all relies on perspective and opinion. But since Pokebeach is a news site which is also dedicated to research in both the TCG and video games, their case is applicable to this law. As explicitly stated in the law, unpublished work is not excluded from this law. The only logical reason for Nintendo to do anything would be because of (3), but Pokebeach in particular had not posted that many (if any) pictures that were substantial in portion to the amount of content in the game. Even if all the sprites are posted, the amount of information they provide pales in comparison to what one would experience by actually playing the game. The reason Nintendo has suddenly cracked down on this issue is beyond me, but makes me wonder if they've changed their legal policies since HGSS were released. Of course this is all just my opinion. Feel free to rebut.

But
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole;
The site had every single Pokemon! That's the entire thing! As the lawyer himself said, they've gone way above fair usage. Normally this is turned a blind eye to, but if it is going to impact on their sales then they can do what they like to fan sites.

@ Garchompsoup- actually I don't see any problem with a 6-8 year old being on a Pokemon site. =/
 
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