Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

[Robin Aisaga]

I truly have no idea why you put me there, but aside from myself- yes, if the scumvsscum theory is right, this would be the list (+jabber maybe)

Just to see your reaction. But it did cross my mind that it would look very good on you if scum vs scum turned out to be true.

 

[Celever]

This is pointless, except that it showed that the pressure went to your head. I did see your post, but decided to reply tomorrow. I'm allowed to reply when I see fit, it's that simple.

Yet you still haven't responded to it, remarkably:

Filling in my answers now? This is just rude.

Police: Did you murder this guy?
Murderer: You don't know me you have no idea whether I murdered him or not!
Police: So, yes? If you were a murderer you would just deny it.
Murderer: Wow how rude how could you think that me not denying a clearly incriminating question means that the answer might be true?

It's not a clear yes or no. My character was in direct service of Pompey. That is reason enough for me to doubt that Jabber's role name confirms that he is scum.

I'd like to refer you back to my original refutation of this argument that you still haven't properly acknowledged because it totally destroys your argument but you want to stand by it because your scumbud Jabs would be in the firing line otherwise:

There's a difference between aiding in a military sense and aiding in a political one. Military duties are exactly that: duties; these don't show a particular alignment or affiliation. Political assistance is, on the other hand, a way of enforcing your own ideals. And that's what Jabs' character historically did.

If he was in direct service of Pompey, he was assisting him out of duty. So it's not the same thing as Jabs' character at all. Unless your character autonomously decided to assist Pompey's political career over your character's entire life, in which case maybe. But you've established that they haven't at this point.

Besides the fact that you won't tell how you got his role name. Especially since you don't claim to be a clear seer.

See above post: it was pretty bloody heavily implied, in the first place.

Also Jabber would be responsible for eliminating half of his team before the start of day 4. Nice going there.

So his plan to get town cred has worked, in short? Nice going there, getting manipulated. Lele was always gonna get lynched so voting for him is not alignment indicative, and in terms of bb vs PMJ, bb was already a publicly acknowledge solid lynch target before PMJ even made a post, and so offing him for town cred is the kind of power play that the scum team had to make.

I'd like to point out role fishing here. Celever might be aiming for me to get the penalty for claiming. Whatever that may be.

Oh God I sincerely hope you're a reaching mafian because if, as town, you genuinely believe this I'm a little concerned. I was asking you ambiguously about your character's historical intentions. There is no way that that would trigger a claiming penalty because, assuming you wouldn't go into a randomly great amount of detail that no one asked you for, we wouldn't be able to figure out who your character is (or even make a 20-strong shortlist).

Again, this is all you're going to bother with?

It's not a case of "bothering". If I were to ask you for an in-depth read about the TEAMAQUA#HEYNICK guy, would you be able to give me an in-depth read? No. Same case for mord and Drac so far: they've barely posted.

The main reason why it doesn't make sense is because PMJ was very close to being lynched himself. If it really was scums intention to lynch their member BBninjas, another member could've easily put another vote on him and even win town credits for it. But as you can see any of the inactives could've swayed the end result. Scum wouldn't let fate decide their supposedly well crafted plan.

Of course they would: it's scum vs scum. It didn't matter whether bb or PMJ was the one who died because they're both the same alignment, and so whoever survives claims the town cred. PMJ being close to being lynched himself was frankly ideal.

Another reason would be that scum vs scum is just an incredibly stupid play this early in the game. They could've easily lycnhed another town before attempting this. Neither PMJ or BBninjas were set lynch candidates before their confrontation. Did they panick after losing just Tapu Lele? I don't think so.

I've said before that this is not the case. bbninjas was a publicly acknowledged strong lynch target literally by the end of Day 1, and support for his lynch increased even more over the course of Day 2 before PMJ came out and made his horrid case on the guy. He wouldn't have survived beyond the end of this day anyway, most likely, looking at how momentum for his case had been building. And so losing Lele as well meant the mafia would have been 2 members down quickly and, considering the inevitability of modkills due to inactives, that's a dangerous position to be in. So actually yes, they needed a power play.

The one that is panicking is Celever

I'm not panicking: I'm phenomenally frustrated. Like, because of this game there's no chance I'm playing another game on this site unless the hosts are friends who convince me to, because at this point this game is composed of inactives, people who aren't really trying / might as well not, PMJ, and Jabs. I only like playing with one of those. It's also meant that I'm not designing the next game like I was originally planning to, because it would bum me out to put work into a game that will inevitably flop due to the players within it; I can't imagine how NP and Vracken are feeling because a lot of work has gone into this game and the quality of this gamethread is shocking.

 

[Celever]

Forgot to mention this,

There is a very good explanation for the anti-claim measure and it being dangerous to reveal your role unnecessarily. It might very well be that the hosts intentionally included these questionable roles as the anti-claim measure.

This is a game clearly designed around historical accuracy, so no.

 

[Celever]

I actually see the scumvsscum situation being true the same as the possibility that Celever is scum because
A) it is still kinda wifomy
B) Celever’s scum meta usually involves wifom. Although this game had a lot of wifom regardless.

Anyway, I was really surprised that bb ended up being scum.
Now we have a great lead indeed- Jabberwock and Celever. One of them is scum in my opinion
A) Celever claimed Jabber has a scummy role name with flavor that somewhat clashes with his.
B) PMJ defended Jabber - this is a really important point that can clear up things about the theory that PMJ is scum.

I am gonna ##VOTE:Celever

If he is town - that means Jab is scum , and if Jab is scum, (and the scum faction does not die) then PMJ is most likely the last scum.


And as for morda- I really don't understand the case- if it is only because he defended bbninjas, then I must reject it because I was also thinking that the case on bbninjas was really weird and came out of nowhere. It had some grounds, but still not much to go all out on him- I think there was more to it than just the fact he responded to Celever's theory that Lele might be town.

I've barely used WIFOM in this game. I think you think I've used it more than I have because bb and PMJ were throwing it around, but the only time I used it was refuting when PMJ called me out for WIFOM, so I replied, saying that his argument was based on WIFOM. Beyond that I haven't used it, so that reason is flawed. And that's your entire case oof.

Why on earth are people considering lynching the player who has shared his results incriminating a mafian to "confirm those results"? I've played mafia online for like half a decade and this is literally the first time this has happened, because it's so logically flawed it's always immediately shot down.

 

[Celever]

^ This is Luispipe's role @Celever Needless to say I think you're wrong about the timescale.

Fair enough. That doesn't change the fact that Jabs is a Roman Darth Vader.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

@NinjaPenguin, did dos count as a threat to the Republic? In other words, could town win with dos alive?

Yes.

 

[PMJ]

##unvote
##vote jabberwock

 

[Scattered mind]

I'm not panicking: I'm phenomenally frustrated. Like, because of this game there's no chance I'm playing another game on this site unless the hosts are friends who convince me to, because at this point this game is composed of inactives, people who aren't really trying / might as well not, PMJ, and Jabs. I only like playing with one of those. It's also meant that I'm not designing the next game like I was originally planning to, because it would bum me out to put work into a game that will inevitably flop due to the players within it; I can't imagine how NP and Vracken are feeling because a lot of work has gone into this game and the quality of this gamethread is shocking.

That's what happens when 2 people post essays over essays for pages. Trust me, otherwise, this game could have been a lot more active. Also, a lot of good subs have entered : Mariano, Robin, Yog - really great players in terms of activity.

As for Jab, your AtE seems genuine to me, Plus I just thought of something and it seems weird to me that you would be scum because of it. (can't tell, sorry). As for wifom, I can quote some posts where you used WIFOM, if need be.

##UNVOTE:
##VOTE:Jabberwock

I would be surprised by any flip with these two. honestly. This game is mind blowing for me, haha.

 

[Robin Aisaga]

it totally destroys your argument but you want to stand by it because your scumbud Jabs would be in the firing line otherwise:

So his plan to get town cred has worked, in short? Nice going there, getting manipulated.

You're really beginning to show now Celever. First I'm Jabber's scumbuddy and then I'm a manipulated town? or am I a manipulated scumbuddy? Lol, you should pay more attention to your own accusations. I'm thinking that since you know that I'm town, you're reluctant to involve another party that you're afraid will be an interference... I gues you'll have to go all out on me now eh?

Police: Did you murder this guy?
Murderer: You don't know me you have no idea whether I murdered him or not!
Police: So, yes? If you were a murderer you would just deny it.
Murderer: Wow how rude how could you think that me not denying a clearly incriminating question means that the answer might be true?

Is this supposed to be funny? I guess it's funny because of how unappropriate it is and in no way important to the game. It was clear that you made the assumption that my role is not acting out of ideals. Filling in answers that is.

See above post: it was pretty bloody heavily implied, in the first place.

If you want to get rid of my vote on you please claim this ability.

I'm not panicking: I'm phenomenally frustrated. Like, because of this game there's no chance I'm playing another game on this site unless the hosts are friends who convince me to, because at this point this game is composed of inactives, people who aren't really trying / might as well not, PMJ, and Jabs. I only like playing with one of those. It's also meant that I'm not designing the next game like I was originally planning to, because it would bum me out to put work into a game that will inevitably flop due to the players within it; I can't imagine how NP and Vracken are feeling because a lot of work has gone into this game and the quality of this gamethread is shocking.

This is hard appeal to emotion, just play the game already. You're really this frustrated because it's going bad for you.

 

[PMJ]

FoS to Celever for unironically thinking Caesar wasn't a role in this setup when the last kill was literally about finding Caesar.

 

[PMJ]

With dos confirmed not a threat it gives weight to Celever's claim.

 

[PMJ]

(because there are probably 5 scum)

 

[PMJ]

No extra deaths so sk is unlikely.

 

[Celever]

You're really beginning to show now Celever. First I'm Jabber's scumbuddy and then I'm a manipulated town? or am I a manipulated scumbuddy? Lol, you should pay more attention to your own accusations. I'm thinking that since you know that I'm town, you're reluctant to involve another party that you're afraid will be an interference... I gues you'll have to go all out on me now eh?

I have no idea how to read you right now because you're playing so badly that whether you're town or not you're advantaging the scumteam more than you are the town, so I'm treating you like a mafian regardless of your alignment until you start to make coherent, thought-out posts..

Is this supposed to be funny? I guess it's funny because of how unappropriate it is and in no way important to the game. It was clear that you made the assumption that my role is not acting out of ideals. Filling in answers that is.

Funny in a masochistic way, maybe, for me. Because that transcript is unfortunately what happened with you and, as you said, it's inappropriate and crazy, but that's what you genuinely did. I didn't make the assumption: I literally asked you if it was the case, you glossed over the question (clearly intentionally, by the way) meaning that the only logical conclusion is that the answer to my question was no and you just didn't like that that's the answer. Either because you're a really, really confused town, or because Jabs is your scumbud and you wanna stand by him.

If you want to get rid of my vote on you please claim this ability.

This deserved its own post. Need I remind you all that Robin is the person who genuinely tried to turn me asking ambiguous questions about their historical figure, which was a topic Robin themself started, into a rolefish. And then Robin decides to blackmail me (because this is a blackmail ultimatum) into claiming, the cost being my life, as votes are used to take people's lives in this game. This is literally the scummiest play made by anyone so far this game.

This is hard appeal to emotion, just play the game already. You're really this frustrated because it's going bad for you.

Robin: "You're panicking"
Cel: "I'm not panicking I'm frustrated"
Robin: "APPEAL TO EMOTION HOW DARE U BE FRUSTRATED"

 

[Celever]

Lmao I was meant to cut my third quote outta that post and make it its own post to ensure people'd see it. Oh well, it's there.

 

[Robin Aisaga]

Yup, I want you to claim your ability. I can't really applaud your play so far either and I want to give you the opportunity to give clearance. Side note: have you heard of the concept pushing? Anyway I don't really care if it is you or Jabber that is lycnhed. If Jabber flips scum I'm happy, if he does not, then you won't live very long and I promise you, what happens tonight will not be to your liking. Do you feel blackmailed? There's really no need if you're town.

 

[Celever]

Yup, I want you to claim your ability. I can't really applaud your play so far either and I want to give you the opportunity to give clearance. Side note: have you heard of the concept pushing? Anyway I don't really care if it is you or Jabber that is lycnhed. If Jabber flips scum I'm happy, if he does not, then you won't live very long and I promise you, what happens tonight will not be to your liking. Do you feel blackmailed? There's really no need if you're town.

Robin 4 mob boss confirmed????

No but really this is the second-scummiest post in the game, behind the one I quoted earlier which is still the scummiest post. This is.... weird, behaviour, is I guess how you could put it.

 

[Jabberwock]

Do you think Caesar is in this game? It hadn't crossed my mind before now, but I believe in the first certamen all of the questions were restricted to a pre-Caesar timescale. That heavily implies that this game is also set in a pre-Caesar timescale, and so the ringleader would be Pompey, meaning those who spent a lot of time and effort advancing Pompey's campaign are likely that mafia's supporting cast. So uh, Jabs.

Ofc Caesar's in this game; the scum team is literally called the Triumvirate –– a quick WP search shows that that means Pompey, Caesar, and Crassus.

No, misinterpretation implies that I'm not understanding language. The role name has been interpreted correctly -- you've confirmed this -- and the conclusion that you're mafia is because your role name is. If you want to refute the misinterpretation, make a case that your role could be town.

Don't know enough about Roman history to do that, nor can I be bothered to research it as much as you clearly have. Here's the flavor from my role, which is literally all I've got to defend myself with:

You are Aulus Gabinius, and you are aligned with the Loyalists. A help to Pompey, you aided in the exile of Cicero and helped to suppress revolts. You may have bribed your way out of a conviction for high treason and into the position of consul, but you still appreciate the Republic and the cause of the optimates like Pompey.

As PMJ said, he was converted, so no this is a bad example.

These are better examples but still aren't good enough: if Jabber is town that would be the equivalent to Darth Vader being town in Squirtle Squad's Star Wars game, Voldemort being town in the Harry Potter game, or Bowser being town in Lorde's Mario game. I.E. he is a villain and this is a town vs villain setup -- one based on historical accuracy, at that.

Arguing this point with you would be an absurdly inefficient use of time; any flavor-related defense I can give, you can easily spin back the other way. If you want to accept my role flavor, that's dandy; if not, ahh well.

....what was he fishing for, if not roles?

Reads. I've said this at least twice.

Yes.

This is literally the most unhelpful answer possible, and idk why PMJ ran with it. "Yes" to "is dos a threat", or "yes" to "can we win with dos"?

Plus I just thought of something and it seems weird to me that you would be scum because of it. (can't tell, sorry). As for wifom, I can quote some posts where you used WIFOM, if need be.

I'm getting really tired of this. If I get lynched, y'all look into scattered and anybody else voting anybody on grounds of "I know something that you do not know but lol I ain't gonna tell you 'cause anti-claim mechanics".

 

[Celever]

Don't know enough about Roman history to do that, nor can I be bothered to research it as much as you clearly have. Here's the flavor from my role, which is literally all I've got to defend myself with:

I mean, that flavour clearly belongs in a mafian role pm, so oh well.

Reads. I've said this at least twice.

But fishing for reads isn't scummy??? Why do you think that's scummy?

This is literally the most unhelpful answer possible, and idk why PMJ ran with it. "Yes" to "is dos a threat", or "yes" to "can we win with dos"?

Yes to can we win with dos. It seems p clear to me.

I'm getting really tired of this. If I get lynched, y'all look into scattered and anybody else voting anybody on grounds of "I know something that you do not know but lol I ain't gonna tell you 'cause anti-claim mechanics".

This is just what anti-claim mechanics do to a game. It's not scummy.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

This is literally the most unhelpful answer possible, and idk why PMJ ran with it. "Yes" to "is dos a threat", or "yes" to "can we win with dos"?

Yes, you (as in the town) could have won with DoS.