Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

[Robin Aisaga]

Jabber is probably town

I think so too, it's rather curious, but after looking into my role it turns out that my character also supported Pompey similar to Jabber's character. My character apparently aided in the campaign against Mediterranean pirates. My first impression is that we had similar goals before Pompey joined the optimates. But I can't say for sure what exactly is going on here. Feel free to scold me for my lack of roman knowledge after this game @NinjaPenguin xD

You thought the bb/PMJ thing was staged? So why not vote for one of them? For them to have staged it, they'd have both had to be scum.

This ^ thanks for pointing out this huge contradiction. In the end both of them were much more deserving of your vote, don't you think?

 

[Robin Aisaga]

Because PMJ vs bbninjas was likely staged so that whoever won the "argument" would get a lot of credibility within the town and they would be able to steamroll the rest of the game from there; the scumteam was losing Lele early and bbninjas was already a publicly acknowledged solid lynch target (before PMJ even made a post in the game, might I add), so the faction had to make a power play.

Evidence for this theory includes the following:

• The fact that the argument was so intentionally centralising to discussion (to the point where PMJ would keep telling players who weren't talking only about bbninjas to focus on him)
• How weak both sides truly were (PMJ's case on bbninjas was full of countless logic flaws which were pointed out by both me and bb over the course of the day, and bbninjas didn't even really attempt to make a case on PMJ (or anyone else for that matter) and his defensive arguments were usually pretty under-cooked)
• PMJ's admission that he didn't actually look at any players in the game in-depth besides bb before deciding to make a case on him: PMJ didn't have to look for the scummiest player because the purpose of the case wasn't to lynch the scummiest player -- the target was bbninjas because they were scumbuddies and the argument was orchestrated.

It's pretty obvious that you never considered this yesterday. You certainly didn't act that way. So I gues you want us to believe that you came up with this theory today? There are two ways to find out if this is true or made up. Lynch PMJ or you... my preference should be clear.

 

[Celever]

Sure. Because unlike a one-shot certamen reward, I don't think hosts would put a role cop in the setup if it could be used to find scum that easily. It would devolve the game into exactly what they are trying to stop, scumhunting based on ability results and not posts and reads.

I haven't claimed role cop, obviously. Don't make assumptions.

Jabber confirmed his role name so the only way he could possibly be scum is if you were town.

Probably.

I'm willing to sacrifice you to find out.

And this isn't even true: you're not even trying to make sound arguments; you might as well just be a magic 8-ball.

 

[Celever]

I think so too, it's rather curious, but after looking into my role it turns out that my character also supported Pompey similar to Jabber's character. My character apparently aided in the campaign against Mediterranean pirates. My first impression is that we had similar goals before Pompey joined the optimates. But I can't say for sure what exactly is going on here. Feel free to scold me for my lack of roman knowledge after this game @NinjaPenguin xD

There's a difference between aiding in a military sense and aiding in a political one. Military duties are exactly that: duties; these don't show a particular alignment or affiliation. Political assistance is, on the other hand, a way of enforcing your own ideals. And that's what Jabs' character historically did.

It's pretty obvious that you never considered this yesterday. You certainly didn't act that way. So I gues you want us to believe that you came up with this theory today? There are two ways to find out if this is true or made up. Lynch PMJ or you... my preference should be clear.

Or it's pretty obvious I considered this heavily yesterday, considering I presented it to the thread:

On days 1 and 2 I found bb somewhat scummy, and this was before PMJ had ever posted so they were for different reasons. Right now, I have no real thoughts on him. PMJ vs bb is definitely scum-vs-town or scum-vs-scum (this being staged is like, 45% likely to me right now) but it's too much of a mess to be able to gauge whether the mafian is bb or PMJ in a scum-vs-town. This is why I feel like it's very very possibly staged: usually one side comes from a place of being slightly more right or assured, whereas with these two they're both making as little sense as each other and grasping at things they have no business grasping at.

But I don't think it's productive to pursue either of them right now. A part of me wants to lynch PMJ so that the thread becomes less centralised, because he keeps pushing attention onto bb which is really unproductive and sets the town back massively, even if the guy is mafia.

 

[Yog]

Just to be aware, there is every chance that BB did not actually know Lele was also scum on Day 1, being that Lele had no access to the scumchat thread. He'd have to get out of the basement first.



Jabber is probably town because he appears in this list. So are the rest.
Final Vote Count: on bbninjas (5): PMJ, Jabberwock, Yog, Luispipe8, Professor_jplap

Yes scum will occasionally pile on their scumbuddy but yesterday was a close case when their votes could have swung it elsewhere.

 

[Celever]

Just to be aware, there is every chance that BB did not actually know Lele was also scum on Day 1, being that Lele had no access to the scumchat thread. He'd have to get out of the basement first.



Jabber is probably town because he appears in this list. So are the rest.
Final Vote Count: on bbninjas (5): PMJ, Jabberwock, Yog, Luispipe8, Professor_jplap

Yes scum will occasionally pile on their scumbuddy but yesterday was a close case when their votes could have swung it elsewhere.

This is not true in a scum vs scum situation.

 

[Robin Aisaga]

There's a difference between aiding in a military sense and aiding in a political one. Military duties are exactly that: duties; these don't show a particular alignment or affiliation. Political assistance is, on the other hand, a way of enforcing your own ideals. And that's what Jabs' character historically did.

You don't even know my role so how can you assume my character did not act out of ideals as well?

Or it's pretty obvious I considered this heavily yesterday, considering I presented it to the thread:

I'll admit that I missed that part. There are some posts from yesterday that I looked over a bit too quickly. I'm going to read the dispute between you, PMJ and BBninjas more careful now.

Btw if you firmly believe in your scum vs scum theory @Celever, why don't you support it better by quoting indications that BBninjas and PMJ worked together? Because so far you've been all talk and no cases.

However, since you're against making a discussion central about 1 or 2 players, you should also share reads that don't involve PMJ. What is your opinion on GM Draclord and Mordacazir?

 

[Celever]

You don't even know my role so how can you assume my character did not act out of ideals as well?

Well, did they?

I'll admit that I missed that part. There are some posts from yesterday that I looked over a bit too quickly. I'm going to read the dispute between you, PMJ and BBninjas more careful now.

Btw if you firmly believe in your scum vs scum theory @Celever, why don't you support it better by quoting indications that BBninjas and PMJ worked together? Because so far you've been all talk and no cases.

There's literally a case you've quoted on this page.

However, since you're against making a discussion central about 1 or 2 players, you should also share reads that don't involve PMJ. What is your opinion on GM Draclord and Mordacazir?

> Says Cel is centralising discussion around PMJ
> Cel has a vote on a player besides PMJ

Hmm.....

My vote is on Jabs who, by the way, there should be way more discussion around due to his confirmed role having clear ties to a confirmed mafian role, so nah. We have 2 very strong cases and the lack of anyone even wanting to discuss them is interesting.

GM Drac and mord are some of the more townier players in this game based on the gut of reading their fairly scarce posts.

 

[Robin Aisaga]

There's literally a case you've quoted on this page.

Well if that's all you're going to bother with don't mind me leaving this here before I go to sleep:

##VOTE: Celever

 

[Celever]

Well if that's all you're going to bother with don't mind me leaving this here before I go to sleep:

##VOTE: Celever

Well, did they?

So I guess this is a no. So why isn't your vote on Jabberwock? He's confirmed mafia by his role name!

 

[Celever]

So I guess this is a no. So why isn't your vote on Jabberwock? He's confirmed mafia by his role name!

I'd like the record to show that Robin has seen this post before going to bed.

 

[Yog]

This is not true in a scum vs scum situation.

Are you implying that there is more than one scum team or they shared a team but went scum v scum for ~reasons~.

I think the situation dictates the second is highly unlikely. The first is possible, but I would prefer to look at the much more likely scenario where one is scum and the other is town. In my estimation, the five that voted him were not on the same team as him, so it's a much better approach to look at people who didn't vote for him, since people who are on the same team as him are more likely to be in that number.

 

[Yog]

And I don't think flavour dictates who is scum to be blunt. I'm sure a lot of reps could be read as scummy if you had a list. Half of Rome was stabbing each other in the back. I'd be pretty sure there's a Caesar and a Crassius around here somewhere, probably a Marc Antony too. How many mafians could there be?

It would be much wiser to base this on facts and reads.

Now we have two known scum. At least one of which was known to the rest of the scum chat. Picking through the thread should reveal people that were shying away from pushing their names so long as they were posting. Mordacaizar is a prime example. Samwise was not exactly town in his behaviours either.

 

[GM DracLord]

You thought the bb/PMJ thing was staged? So why not vote for one of them? For them to have staged it, they'd have both had to be scum.

i wanted to see if bb would pick some other lynch option and PMJ would support that case. I add jlap to the list since he never question why Im always voting for him as faras I remember.

Jabber is probably town because he appears in this list. So are the rest.
Final Vote Count: on bbninjas (5): PMJ, Jabberwock, Yog, Luispipe8, Professor_jplap

So you want us to use that same logic since you are in that list also? That what i see your post isimolying from my view

 

[Celever]

Are you implying that there is more than one scum team or they shared a team but went scum v scum for ~reasons~.

The former is possible but unlikely, the latter is possible and likely for reasons I've posted twice in this thread now. If you don't understand the case beyond "~reasons~" you have not read the case intensively enough to be able to make a post on it. Go read it again.

I think the situation dictates the second is highly unlikely.

Why?

The first is possible, but I would prefer to look at the much more likely scenario where one is scum and the other is town. In my estimation, the five that voted him were not on the same team as him, so it's a much better approach to look at people who didn't vote for him, since people who are on the same team as him are more likely to be in that number.

Scum off their own members for town cred so frequently that honestly it's sometimes better to look at who has voted for mafia over who hasn't. Like, I know it doesn't make a lot of rational sense, but it is true, somehow.

 

[Celever]

Thoughts on Jabberwock, @Yog

 

[PMJ]

OTT

what

Acta est fabula, plaudite!

A bit early for this, don't you think?

I haven't claimed role cop, obviously. Don't make assumptions.

Role cop, name cop, whatever the stupid role is that tells you someone's role name. You know what I was talking about. Share your other results.

And this isn't even true: you're not even trying to make sound arguments; you might as well just be a magic 8-ball.

It is definitely true I'm willing to sacrifice you

If you're both scum and you're trying to get him lynched to give you some town cred... considering I'll advocate your lynch as long as I'm alive, I must say you've got bigger stones than me, my friend. HOWEVER I am sure this is not the case and feel confident in dismissing that theory.

If you're town then your words would actually hold some sort of merit and would be worth looking into but I still think you are scum. It's already been proven there are members of scum that aren't part of the Triumvirate (see below) but I still find it very unlikely.

Jabber is probably town because he appears in this list. So are the rest.
Final Vote Count: on bbninjas (5): PMJ, Jabberwock, Yog, Luispipe8, Professor_jplap

Drac brought this up but it's worth repeating, you are on this list as well; FoS for this post. And while I'm at it, FoS for the posts you've made about the makeup of the scum team. No one was discussing it at all and you come out of nowhere with an essay. Very sketch.

Just to be aware, there is every chance that BB did not actually know Lele was also scum on Day 1, being that Lele had no access to the scumchat thread. He'd have to get out of the basement first.

With bb's flip including a scum chat link it proves that Lele's alignment was hidden from the others. The day 1 stuff was suspicious but it was his behavior during day 2, and making that huge post about the role possibly being fake, that lead to my case on him.

It's worth looking into anyone else who supported Tapu Lele's lynch on day one but was noticeably absent or changed their mind during day two.

I'd be pretty sure there's a Caesar and a Crassius around here somewhere, probably a Marc Antony too. How many mafians could there be?

Most likely four, five maximum. In a setup of 20 players, alloting 5 (25%) of the roles to non-Town roles would yield 4 scum and 1 indie. Five scum on top of 1 indie is 30% of the roles, which seems like a lot. Tapu Lele's role being separate from the rest of the Triumvirate (bb's character is the third member not mentioned in Tapu Lele's role) makes me think that it's just those four. Also, y'know, triumvirate, three.

Mordacaizar is a prime example.

Swing and a miss, just call him mord like I do

 

[Celever]

Role cop, name cop, whatever the stupid role is that tells you someone's role name. You know what I was talking about. Share your other results.

I can't, because that's not my role, hence why I haven't claimed it, dummy. I shouldn't have to tell you twice. Maybe your assumptions are wrong, once in a while?

If you're both scum and you're trying to get him lynched to give you some town cred... considering I'll advocate your lynch as long as I'm alive, I must say you've got bigger stones than me, my friend. HOWEVER I am sure this is not the case and feel confident in dismissing that theory.

The fact that you say phrases like "I'll advocate your lynch as long as I'm alive" means your advocating should fall on deaf ears, though. It's not, which is annoying because 85% of your logic this game doesn't deserve to be called logic, but alas. You're probably right in that the likelihood we're scumbuddies is low, but if you think about it there are literally 0 situations where, with this many players still alive, it's a better play to kill the person who reveals that another player is mafia rather than to kill the mafian. Like, literally 0. You trying to pretend there is is scummy, and is because you didn't expect your bud Jabs to get found.

If you're town then your words would actually hold some sort of merit and would be worth looking into but I still think you are scum. It's already been proven there are members of scum that aren't part of the Triumvirate (see below) but I still find it very unlikely.

My words hold merit because you can ignore they ever came from me and just look at where Jabs confirms his role name. You don't have to take me as the source at that point, you can treat it like Jabs claimed his role name out of the blue and then start treating him like that: a guy who claimed a clearly mafian role.

 

[Yog]

OTT is "over the top". Apologies, the boards where I normally play are Survivor-based, and OTT is just common lingo, not even mafia-specific.
What I mean to say is that Celever being so blatantly and loudly against the BB lynch makes him less likely to be his scumbuddy. Mafia would not attach themselves so openly imo.

List of more likely scumbuddy plays than Celever's outrage;

• Samwise, quietly went about his business with a PMJ vote, and then later checked in and left it there.
  
• Draclord, when votes are splitting on PMJ/BB, puts his in a no-hoper on jplap - not wanting to help lynch BB but also not wanting to be seen as not committed.
• Mord, agrees that one of those two needs to be lynched today but doesn't go so far as to commit with a vote either direction. See also: Mirdo.

---

Err yes, I am more than implying I am town. No implication needed, I know for a fact that I am, so it didn't seem like anything to me to phrase it that way. I was on the BB train pretty early and didn't waver. I was also quick to put Lele out of his misery when others were pussyfooting around. I would say the same for any of the others in that list, it is just the logical way to think. At the very least, the people mentioned are not on the same team as BB. People that kill Mafia are unlikely to also be Mafia bar the occasional bait and switch. On a day when the vote was finely balanced, it's even moreso the case.

---

As for my jump to role-names and that. That was just natural reaction to Celever trying to build an entire case just by knowing Jabber's name. It's a stretch at best is all. I do have a tendency to go off on a tangent occasionally. it's the best way to avoid being swayed too much.

As for thoughts on Jabber I think I'm pretty clear that i'd have him in the town bracket of impressions. Outside chance of being some independent faction but I'd play for the obvious targets first.

People who are likely town (not scum at least): Me [[implying intensifies]], Jabber, PMJ, jplap, scattered mind (based on early game).

 

[PMJ]

dummy

Maybe your assumptions are wrong, once in a while?

For all the times we've gone town vs town against each other you should know this is true. But even a stopped PMJ is right twice a day.

it's a better play to kill the person who reveals that another player is mafia rather than to kill the mafian.

Guys, I officially reveal that Celever is mafia. Lynch him now please.

Wait, it doesn't work like that? :[

I get that he confirmed your claim but that does mean he's mafia. This isn't like Tapu Lele where we had mod confirmation, this is just you speculating on alignment when it's unlikely there are any more scum roles left outside of Crassus and Caesar. I'll admit that if there were, that role name could be another, I guess, but I don't see 5 scum + 1 indie in a 20-man game.

I'd rather lynch you, mord, even Yog over Jabber right now.

My words hold merit because you can ignore they ever came from me and just look at where Jabs confirms his role name. You don't have to take me as the source at that point, you can treat it like Jabs claimed his role name out of the blue and then start treating him like that: a guy who claimed a clearly mafian role.

It's clearly mafian but clearly isn't mafia because I don't believe the hosts would let you get around his safe claim with whatever you used to discern his role name, if not your own personal night action. The fact that you got that result means that Jibjab can't be scum unless you're willing to subscribe to the theory that the hosts would give him a scummy safe claim, knowing that they've been striving for historical accuracy.

I guess what it boils down to is how likely you think it is that the hosts would have 6 scum in the setup.

@NinjaPenguin, did dos count as a threat to the Republic? In other words, could town win with dos alive?

What I mean to say is that Celever being so blatantly and loudly against the BB lynch makes him less likely to be his scumbuddy. Mafia would not attach themselves so openly imo.

They would if they thought they could get out of it alive, and it's wifom reasoning so it's a perfect play. Notice that neither Celever nor bb actually voted for me until Samwise did, allowing them to piggyback off his double vote and push me into the lead. Celever's vote was on Samwise all day long and bb waited until Celever voted just to downplay the omgus factor as much as he could.

Err yes, I am more than implying I am town. No implication needed, I know for a fact that I am, so it didn't seem like anything to me to phrase it that way. I was on the BB train pretty early and didn't waver.

That isn't the point at all.

As for my jump to role-names and that. That was just natural reaction to Celever trying to build an entire case just by knowing Jabber's name.

You first did it during day three, which is more suspicious.