Ancient Origins [8/15, aka Bandit Ring]

Metalizard

Aspiring Trainer
Member
@GadgetJax I get what you mean, I thought Hoopa would have a theta ancient trait too. However, I wouldn't say that just because it doesn't have one and they haven't shown any set card with one yet that there's not any in the set.
They're not getting your point... But I'm not going to explain to them either cause I don't have the patience...
 

Materious17

Pokemon Geologist
Member
I think you're right. I think that Shauna is more consistent, better would be just me having an opinnion, but anyways I've always thought she was. From my perspective as a player, haven skipped everything between Skridge to XY, I've used N maybe three times in League Challenge's/Tournaments. The only reason I ever did buy/try N out (because I definitely wasn't collecting during the BW era) was because every deck list I looked at ran four of them and well, that's intriguing to say the least. I did come to the conclusion (rather quickly) that N was a niche card. My theory about N boiled down to the fact that if you use N, your gearing towards being, at any point in your match, at a loss and something needs to be done to bring that to your advantage. You can call this optimism but i see it as pessimism. And that's not my niche and that's not how i like to battle. The only reason I say Ace Trainer will be a staple is because I know first hand how people love cards like this. I nor you get to choose what is or isn't a staple. A staple card is given such a name because of the sheer amount of people who will be using it at tournaments and challenges. I'm sure you'll see this card in mass after it becomes legal here in the states.

I didn't mean to offend you if I did, my point in believing that Ace Trainer will not be a staple 4-of card in every deck like N was is that the card is locked for 66% of the average game time. This card will see the same use as other down-on-prize supporters like Twins from HGSS-on and Teammates currently is seeing.

Anyways, Otaku made an excellent point with this card in his earlier post, so I'm done here.
 

fourthstartcg

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Wait a second...when Lugia EX was first revealed its retreat cost was 1, now it looks to be 2. The translation of the card says 1 as well. Hmm.
 

Materious17

Pokemon Geologist
Member
Wait a second...when Lugia EX was first revealed its retreat cost was 1, now it looks to be 2. The translation of the card says 1 as well. Hmm.

It was 2 during the first reveal too, if you look closely enough (the scan is pretty blurry so its easy to miss the 2nd colorless symbol amidst the artwork). The translation is just copy/paste from the original corocoro scan where it looked like it could have been 1 retreat cost.

2 retreat cost is official for Lugia EX
 

RealSlim

Dragons Breeder
Member
Machamp; If someone could explain to me how confusion works with this card. Do you flip for confusion even though you heal yourself of the status condition using Crazy Hammer? If so that's straight CRAZY!
You have to stop your hype train: of course confusion works before the attack, so you have to flip the coin for the confusion before the attack... if tails, the attack fails and you get the self-damage; if heads, the attack hits so you can inflict damage and apply the effects of the attack.

So, if Machamp is confused and it tries to perform its second attack:
A)Flip the coin for the confusion;
B1)If tails, the attack fails, you get the self-damage (30 damage) and your turn ends here;
B2)If heads, the attack inflicts 80+80 and Machamp is healed from the Confusion status.
 
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Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
Sorry folks; I don't have my notifications set-up properly yet and it looks like I got behind in a discussion. This is gonna be another long one. >.>

I might actually be able to simplify by not directly responding to some comments/points but by discussing draw power in general and how it may work in the coming format. Draw power is about digging needed resources out of your deck barring a few obscure exceptions (like attacks that do more damage based on your cards in hand). Generally competitive play favors reliability, cards with variable outcomes have been a "thing" for pretty much the entire history of Pokémon and - more relevant - have at times dictated the metagame. Why this matters to the discussion is why N has proven so amazing that it is often a four-of in deck building, while Colress has become a solid one-of (sometimes two-of) in deck building and why I think Professor Birch's Observations is the most likely card to replace N in deck building, at least until the format "properly" adjusts (in which case it may be Professor Birch's Observation or something else - this is all Theorymon with a lot of unknown factors).

I enjoy pen & paper/tabletop RPGs; my preferred system is GURPS and it has two useful terms (that have variants found in most other such RPGs): "success" and "failure" is augmented by the "critical success" and "the critical failure". Besides these general terms, many actions where you roll dice to determine the outcome have even finer, non-named distinctions of success/failure based on what you rolled. The relevance here? I realized that one of the things one must recognize to really understand how things actually are and to better predict how they may turn out in the Pokémon TCG is that sometimes even binary outcomes aren't as simple as "good" versus "bad", even when using a "tails fails" card.

How so? Well take Super Scoop Up; obviously if you lose the game because you need to bounce a card, you lose the game. That is a pretty "critical failure". If you only used it because you were about to use Professor Sycamore and were just going to bounce something with no cards attached to remove two damage counters, probably pretty trivial. Somewhere in between is when you have an Active you know is going to be KOed and bouncing would let you avoid giving up a Prize while your next attacker (possibly using Energy and a Pokémon Tool that was on the first) comes up and keeps things going... but you will have another attacker ready to go after the current one gets KOed, you aren't guaranteed to lose the game because of that KO and you can still make a useful attack before the KO. What seems like a simple, binary outcome of "good or bad" can have some variability based on the exact circumstances. This need for considering more gradient outcomes is quite relevant to draw power. No matter how many cards you draw, if you whiff on what you need it is a failure and if you get what you need it is a success.

"Shuffle and draw six" seems to be the minimum threshold for competitive play, but nothing hits it reliably. Decks focus on playing a lot of cards each turn and while you don't want to miss an Energy drop or your chance to play a Supporter on a given turn, there are a lot of additional plays you don't want to miss but also nothing you can truly max out to avoid whiffing, without penalty. Pokémon and Energy may be at minimal levels, with decks running about 10 of each ("about", not "exactly"). Yeah that means Trainers are disproportionate, but Trainers includes Items (in general), Pokémon Tools, Supporters and Stadiums. I arrived as "draw six" not out of any formula but out of personal experience - I really wanted Shauna to "work" alongside (or instead of) Professor Juniper/Professor Sycamore and N, but it didn't happen.

N is complicated because it has a lot of "good news" and "bad news" moments. It starts out at the needed "shuffle and draw six" but steadily decreases as you take Prizes. It also starts out that way for your opponent, and while some would think means it is pure gain for your opponent when you use it and they draw as/much more than they hand, besides the risk of getting a worse hand disruption changes how people play the game. N takes the incentive away from hand cultivation; it was already diminished by Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore and the format favoring high utility Basic Pokémon and Items but this takes it to the nth degree (pardon the puns). You generally are only bothered with trying to have a Supporter ready for your next turn or using something up if another factor interferes (Example: using VS Seeker because your opponent is most likely going to Item lock you next turn). N becomes better if you aren't taking Prizes but your opponent is, which usually but not always means when you're losing. The thing is the disruption factor means even if you're winning, it can be worth messing up your own hand so long as it also messes up theirs, even if they draw more than you. The net result ends up being a very unreliable but potent card.

Colress is a bit simpler because there is no disruptive element against your opponent plus it begins the game being pretty bad, possibly drawing zero cards! In most decks, a copy or two is worth it because few decks operate under a minimalist Bench policy while a decent amount will prefer to fill (or come close to filling) the Bench. The amount in between still favors higher numbers; you may not specifically need a four Pokémon Bench but unless your opponent gives you more incentive than just Colress, you aren't likely to restrict yourself to three or less Pokémon in play. Colress offsets its lower draws with fantastically high draws: before Sky Field it was 0 to 10, now it is 0 to 16!

Professor Birch's Observations is actually a bit similar; that average of 5.5 isn't realistic since you can't draw half a card. What is realistic is considering what I've been saying; four cards isn't good but it is still a chance, and it is only a true (or critical) failure when it completely whiffs upon what you need. Since any amount of draw power can fail, we don't dwell on the (usually low) risk of not drawing what is needed off of seven cards. Even though "tails" means "four cards", it isn't necessarily a failure nor a critical failure.

Shauna suffers because while she can't do particularly bad, she also can't do particularly well. Ace Trainer is likely to suffer because being unable to play it at all is part of the text and is likely to include the first few turns of the game. I could see it as the new Colorless, trading the potential of massive draws for a solid draw for you and poor draw amount for them, but that just isn't the same.
 

iWentRogue

They See Me Rollin'
Member
Where will i be able to get the booster box when it comes out? Anyone know a good legit place online?
 

tototavros

Aspiring Trainer
Member
It seems that everyone is understating the importance of Hoopa-EX, in terms of EX based decks. The ability to search out 3 EX cards is incredible, as it's a free Pokemon Collector (not even Fan Club) for the majority of your deck, including the ability to search out draw support (Shaymin-EX). It will only be a 1-of in most decks that use it, but it will serve the same purpose as Jirachi-EX, and seeing as (from what I can see), most decks are moving towards a Skyfield focused deck (even my Mega Rayquaza-EX (Dragon) seems to run better with it than with Scorched Earth. The inclusion of Skyfield in a majority of decks makes a bench space perfectly usable.
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
It seems that everyone is understating the importance of Hoopa-EX, in terms of EX based decks.

a.k.a. In terms of typical decks. It is the non-Pokémon-EX based ones that are unusual... unless you were focusing on a deck that was purely or mostly Pokémon-EX; those are slightly more unusual.

The ability to search out 3 EX cards is incredible, as it's a free Pokemon Collector (not even Fan Club) for the majority of your deck, including the ability to search out draw support (Shaymin-EX).
  1. Hyperbole will likely cause people to appreciate the card even less; you use "incredible" far too lightly, even when understood to be within the context of the game.
    • Pokémon Fan Club gets any two Basic Pokémon (including Basic Pokémon-EX)
    • Pokémon Collector got any three Basic Pokémon (including Basic Pokémon-EX)
    • This can only get Pokémon-EX; since the others could get those already, you lose the ability to get non-Pokémon-EX Basics in exchange for getting Mega Evolutions as well.
  2. Pokémon-EX searched out need to be immediately playable or else if Shaymin-EX (ROS) was one of the selected and is intended to be played immediately, its draw power will be reduced.
  3. You'll need a Bench slot.
  4. Attack not that great and Silent Lab will still shut it down (let alone anything else they introduce).
  5. Unless you draw into it naturally, you're expending a resource that could have gone towards getting the cards directly.

It will only be a 1-of in most decks that use it, but it will serve the same purpose as Jirachi-EX...

No, it won't: Jirachi-EX fetched any Supporter you had in your deck. This will function like an non-Supporter, not-quite-Pokémon Fan Club as described above. While both are Basic Pokémon-EX with coming-into-play Abilities, they are dissimilar enough that this is "apples to oranges" (notice how both things in the saying are still fruit, but very different fruit).

... and seeing as (from what I can see), most decks are moving towards a Skyfield focused deck...

Are they? Not a flippant question; I see Sky Field being used but in the decks where you'd expect it, not "all decks".
...even my Mega Rayquaza-EX (Dragon) seems to run better with it than with Scorched Earth.

Scorched Earth is a solid Stadium but it isn't overly good. You didn't explain why your M Rayquaza-EX (Dragon-Type) deck works better with Sky Field, but if it does it does. When decks using Hypnotoxic Laser/Virbank City Gym, or Fairy Transfer decks using Fairy Garden, or Night March decks that use Mew-EX and Dimension Valley switch over to Sky Field, then we have a pressing point.

The inclusion of Skyfield in a majority of decks makes a bench space perfectly usable.
If that is true, then perhaps. It is also a deck slot as well and as stated, this doesn't match what I'm seeing. I mean Sky Field isn't even tournament legal outside of Japan!
 

maximus2000

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Well, if your imagination is that poor you can always go out to a retail store and check out the Roaring Skies 3-pack blister that includes the Regirock card shown in this article. :D

It's not uncommon for some Japanese promos to be kept as promos specifically for 3-pack or 1-pack blister promotions. As an example, the Ditto that was included as a promo in the Primal Clash 3-packs was also a booster box promo (just like Celebi) when it was released in Japan.

Ugghh such a pretentious insult! "I cant imagine" does not imply i have a poor imagination, it could imply that it just didn't seem right when i imagined a three quarter artwork card with a galaxy holofoil, or i couldnt imagine it happening in this case, not that i couldn't sub consciously picture it in my head! So sorry i wasn't aware of the Roaring Skies 3 pack blister, I haven't followed the English expansions ever since XY begun, i've started collecting the Japanese sets/promos instead..
 

Athena

The Cooler Danchou
Advanced Member
Member
Sorry, I didn't mean it as an insult, just thought it was really funny how you said that. :p I'm also primarily a Japanese collector, but I do love the idea of AT cards with the galaxy holofoil compared to how boring the current hold styles are and I do hope we get to see more of them, with this being the perfect opportunity to do so.
 

TheStrictNein

Has tried turning it off and on again
Member
HO. LY. SHIT.

GOLDEN PRIMALS AND RAYRAY

Oh yeah, and some pretty baller sounding megas. But whatever
 

Pikachu6319

Scooby
Member
I shudder a bit at how much I expect the shiny primals and shiny m. Rayquaza's to be. Guess that box with the shiny Rayquaza EX makes more sense now.

So we have three mega Pokemon now without an extra deck as the reasoning (Charizard Y EX). Wonder what type m. Ampharos and m. Sceptile will be? My guess is not dragon for at least one of them unfortunately. Is the m. Sceptile EX in this set different from the promo one I expect to follow the already revealed promo m. Blaziken and m. Swampert?
 

Impossible100

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I shudder a bit at how much I expect the shiny primals and shiny m. Rayquaza's to be. Guess that box with the shiny Rayquaza EX makes more sense now.

So we have three mega Pokemon now without an extra deck as the reasoning (Charizard Y EX). Wonder what type m. Ampharos and m. Sceptile will be? My guess is not dragon for at least one of them unfortunately. Is the m. Sceptile EX in this set different from the promo one I expect to follow the already revealed promo m. Blaziken and m. Swampert?

Hope so.
 

TheStrictNein

Has tried turning it off and on again
Member
I shudder a bit at how much I expect the shiny primals and shiny m. Rayquaza's to be. Guess that box with the shiny Rayquaza EX makes more sense now.

So we have three mega Pokemon now without an extra deck as the reasoning (Charizard Y EX). Wonder what type m. Ampharos and m. Sceptile will be? My guess is not dragon for at least one of them unfortunately. Is the m. Sceptile EX in this set different from the promo one I expect to follow the already revealed promo m. Blaziken and m. Swampert?

So far, we haven't got a Promo M Sceptile EX. As such, this'll probably the first M Sceptile we get and we'll get either the June Promo Sceptile EX with different art or a different Sceptile EX.

And yeah, my PGroudon and Mrayray decks just got a whole lot more expensive for the bling blang.
 

Vaultboy91

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Nice, M Tyranitar-EX! I wonder if its gonna be Dark or Fighting and if its Dark, hopefully one of the new Special Energies is for Dark type.
 
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