Ah, that makes sense.
Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom
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PMJ
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quaking has asked to sub out. I have no subs left because three people sucked. If anyone knows someone who would be willing to take his place, send them my way. If a sub is not found, he will be modkilled at end of day.
I gave a suggestion for a question, and I explained why I asked it. I don’t really understand what was wrong or scummy about giving a suggestion.
1) I pursued the jplap lead because I thought the way that he acted was scummy. He avoided questions and gave extremely loose reasoning for most, if not all of his actions, many of which contradicted each other. I read him as inexperienced scum earlier in the day.
2) I’m not going to address this right now, because my reasoning for asking this question directly relates to my role.
3) I did say I would vote roz after the vote count, which I did. His actions throughout the day, as many had pointed out, could easily be misconstrued for that of the indie.
4) This is a very weak point. TBH, there are many games where certain aspects of the NK, such as priority, aren’t told to scum, which was why I used probably, since it’s likely, but not certain, they know everything about the NK.
As PMJ has already stated, he’s looking for a sub for me, so I think this might be last post in the game.
Let's talk about the Mariano lynch. Do you still feel like it's a good idea, and if not, what changed your mind? @scattered mind this can also apply to you.
Imo there wasn't that much of a reason for Keeper to claim there. He could very easily have said "it's relevant to my role" and people would've left him alone; that happened often enough in your own most recent game.
This actually strikes me as much more of a backpedal than anything Mariano did during D1 (which admittedly is probably at least partially because this is a more egregious error than the RNG vote).
Oof.
Yeah there really was no reason for you to claim at all. You only buffed a player, nothing there to gain info from one way or another.
I don't believe that was the case, but I fully planned on claiming regardless. I'm a bomb. If scum kill me that's only a good thing for town anyway. Better to be in the open to give as much info as possible.
Hence why I can tell you that I couldn't get a read from Jplap last night. He's still at the top of my suspicion list. There's really no reason for town to be unseerable. (Is that a word? It is now.)
Scratch what I said. Makes sense.
@Jabberwock -
As I explained - I think the Mariano case in itself is not good- it only comes as an interesting case if Jplap is scum. And even then , it is quite a stretch.
When Mariano voted randomly using Random.org, the main complain was that such a random vote would not do its job to yield comments from the votes player because they know it was just random. Then Jplap (the voted player) comes and response to the vote. The response itself seems somewhat forced to me, and that is why I think it might have been staged to defend Mariano, who is Jplap’s scumbuddy.
The logical thing to do was to lynch Jplap to find it out, as Jplap was later on more scummy thanks to other things. However, because Jplap claimed an ability to ask the host a game setup question, and the idea that through that it is possible to utilize that to town’s advantage in the case that Jplap was town, there was the thought to lynch the second scummy player for now, so we can get the answer from Jplap to any question we decide.
Then a lot of other things happened-a lot of good points were made that lynching Mariano without sufficient evident while Jplap has more evidence is silly, because getting an answer about the game setup does not necessarily make it worth to lose a possible townie. Also, eevee started that weird indie not really claim that got all the attention to him. But at that point I was pretty sold on lynching Jplap if it only came down to him or Mariano.
As I explained - I think the Mariano case in itself is not good- it only comes as an interesting case if Jplap is scum. And even then , it is quite a stretch.
When Mariano voted randomly using Random.org, the main complain was that such a random vote would not do its job to yield comments from the votes player because they know it was just random. Then Jplap (the voted player) comes and response to the vote. The response itself seems somewhat forced to me, and that is why I think it might have been staged to defend Mariano, who is Jplap’s scumbuddy.
The logical thing to do was to lynch Jplap to find it out, as Jplap was later on more scummy thanks to other things. However, because Jplap claimed an ability to ask the host a game setup question, and the idea that through that it is possible to utilize that to town’s advantage in the case that Jplap was town, there was the thought to lynch the second scummy player for now, so we can get the answer from Jplap to any question we decide.
Then a lot of other things happened-a lot of good points were made that lynching Mariano without sufficient evident while Jplap has more evidence is silly, because getting an answer about the game setup does not necessarily make it worth to lose a possible townie. Also, eevee started that weird indie not really claim that got all the attention to him. But at that point I was pretty sold on lynching Jplap if it only came down to him or Mariano.
From the voted player*
Just got back with proper internet access.. As far as day 2 go, I'm gonna ignore those flavour based discussion as PMJ said that the game would differ from actual story so going in too depth of flavour is pointless
I am online now for a short time.
Seeing as nobody wants to check the flavor based discussion, I guess I will have to drop it as well. I kinda liked it though, but I suppose it really does waste our time.
Having said that, if Keeper flips town then I would be pretty sure that jplap is scum.
Seeing as nobody wants to check the flavor based discussion, I guess I will have to drop it as well. I kinda liked it though, but I suppose it really does waste our time.
Am I the only one suspicious of Keeper because of this post? If he speaks the truth, then he basically just told scum to not kill him this night. In my eyes, it looks more like a "don't lynch me, because I am helpful if not lynched" claim, which looks more scummy to me than WIFOM.
Having said that, if Keeper flips town then I would be pretty sure that jplap is scum.
I am even more unimpressed by Celever trying to lead the town (i.e. "We'll pick off where we left off."), and presenting the Jplap lynch without any evidence of re-evaluation (despite the mislynch and entering more informed into a new day).
ftr I don't think that quaking's activity levels have been particularly low, let alone problematic. However @quakingpunch73, I don't see how your v/la prevented you from posting any off-the-cuff initial thoughts going into Day 2, especially considering you offered people to ask you questions in the post after.
Anyway, I have been following the thread moreso than usual, so that's a good start. My thoughts so far:
I am widely unimpressed by the town lynching Roz because he 'slipped' and said that [his role] benefited the death of townies, even though it would be foolish for any independent / mafian to say this (and as evident by last game, Roz is no fool). Then town tried to lynch Roz because he didn't explicitly claim being innocent, even though saying this would indicate nothing because people can lie (and as evident by last game, Roz lies). Then town (tried) to force Roz into claiming his role even though role claiming is a last resort beneficial only if someone is a doctor (or a like role), and Roz was not in a position that might warrant this.
I am also widely unimpressed by the town trying to lynch Jplap because he asked about indies, even though it clearly would have been in the mafian's best interest to confirm the existence of - or lack thereof - certain power roles*. Then, the town (i.e. Celever) discounted this reasoning as WIFOM, even though a mafian is more likely to ask about indies is just as WIFOMy. And then, the town decided that Jplap 'slipped' because he speculated that their is possible a mafian that can identify player's abilities, even though players regularly speculate without anyone considering this a problem (in fact, this is evidence of players being misinformed, unless proven coincidental) .
*Responding to Cel and scattered, indies are typically consider 'town' for the sake of wincons; and unlike what has been implied, scum can hunt indies without having any information about them (and to keep options open, they would prefer minimal information). It is actually a pro-town move for an innocent to ask about indies, because it informs the amount of effort town needs to invest into scumhunting.
Anyway, I have been following the thread moreso than usual, so that's a good start. My thoughts so far:
I am widely unimpressed by the town lynching Roz because he 'slipped' and said that [his role] benefited the death of townies, even though it would be foolish for any independent / mafian to say this (and as evident by last game, Roz is no fool). Then town tried to lynch Roz because he didn't explicitly claim being innocent, even though saying this would indicate nothing because people can lie (and as evident by last game, Roz lies). Then town (tried) to force Roz into claiming his role even though role claiming is a last resort beneficial only if someone is a doctor (or a like role), and Roz was not in a position that might warrant this.
FOS at the following players for tunneling // sheeping this wagon: Celever (confirmation bias, equates unhelpfulness == scum, discounting 'evidence'), Aqua (discounting 'evidence' + sheeping), Keeper (out of context, classic tunnel, ridicule), quaking (sheep). Borderline on Mariano (sheep) / scattered (tunnel).
I am also widely unimpressed by the town trying to lynch Jplap because he asked about indies, even though it clearly would have been in the mafian's best interest to confirm the existence of - or lack thereof - certain power roles*. Then, the town (i.e. Celever) discounted this reasoning as WIFOM, even though a mafian is more likely to ask about indies is just as WIFOMy. And then, the town decided that Jplap 'slipped' because he speculated that their is possible a mafian that can identify player's abilities, even though players regularly speculate without anyone considering this a problem (in fact, this is evidence of players being misinformed, unless proven coincidental) .
FOS at the following players for tunneling // sheeping this wagon: Celever (narrow thinking, selective, tunnel, absolutes), scattered (absolutes, narrow thinking, unreasonable expectations), mariano (sheep), quaking (sheeping through a flimsy side-point) + any more sheepers that I missed.
*Responding to Cel and scattered, indies are typically consider 'town' for the sake of wincons; and unlike what has been implied, scum can hunt indies without having any information about them (and to keep options open, they would prefer minimal information). It is actually a pro-town move for an innocent to ask about indies, because it informs the amount of effort town needs to invest into scumhunting.
FTR, I brought the case on Jplap about the indie question.
Speculating about the indie is fine- asking about the indie instead of asking about the scum in your first question is not- it is most likely coming from a scummy mindset.
Speculating about the indie is fine- asking about the indie instead of asking about the scum in your first question is not- it is most likely coming from a scummy mindset.
As for who I think should be lynched? ##VOTE: GM Draclord
The fact that Drac stated who shouldn't be lynched, but not who should, is solid evidence for the classic lack-of-commitment that always shows through in Drac's play as scum. That this is already apparent is quite telling. NOTE: There is some subtle buddying with Celever as on both parties [future reference]:
The fact that Drac stated who shouldn't be lynched, but not who should, is solid evidence for the classic lack-of-commitment that always shows through in Drac's play as scum. That this is already apparent is quite telling. NOTE: There is some subtle buddying with Celever as on both parties [future reference]:
- GM Draclord not wanting to lynch Cel for experience (despite NP, Jabber and scattered all being very experienced too)
- Celever's lack of interaction with GM Drac, despite having picked fights with virtually everyone else
- Celever's lack of interaction with GM Drac, despite having picked fights with virtually everyone else
I acknowledged your involvement in the case on Jplap just as much as Celever ftr. In the asterisked text, I also believe I demonstrated that scum would not realistically care about the independent alignment, thus this is not a question that a mafian would immediately ask, and you cannot say that this question exclusively comes from a scum mindset. I would argue that the question is of a neutral mindset and is insignificant.
Again, I think that the problem is the timing. If it was the second or third question then I’d agree, but when that’s the first thing that comes to your mind it is more scummy. If anything, asking about how many mafs are there is way more helping for town to know how much effort they need to invest in scumhunting. And you said yourself that we should not have been worried about the indie.
Yeah, I agree with SM on this. Jplap's question doesn't seem from a townie mindset for being the very first question, I can't see how it would help the town on Day 1. Instead, it helps scum more than town.
We need to know what jplap asked last night. Are you there @Professor_jplap ? If you are truly town, please tell us what you found out last night.
I will review Drac's posts when I have some time to see what bbninjas says.
We need to know what jplap asked last night. Are you there @Professor_jplap ? If you are truly town, please tell us what you found out last night.
I will review Drac's posts when I have some time to see what bbninjas says.
I did say I was busy with work for most of Day 1. Plus with so little info obtain (Do remember I'm not like you guys, I don't know how to do a in depth analysis) I can hardly suggest whom to lynch..
- I'm more used to having Celever around rather then all the other named you mentioned (when I think back SM should be included with Cel)...
- I never remember Cel ever attacking me early on. I don't think we were ever both scum members at any game.
*The bolded statement also can be apply when I'm a town. At this moment not a single player give off the Scum Vibe in my guts hence I don't really felt like putting my targets yet
PMJ
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People are asking so I'm here to clarify.
With regards to flavor, you should not assume alignment based on the show, as I said. Outside of Twilight and the Deadly Alliance, no character's game alignment should be taken at face value based on the show.
Kill flavor is just that, flavor. I know in some setups it's important, but not here. If a player is killed in the story, someone killed them in game. That's the important part.
Saves are much the same way. A player who is saved from dying in the story was saved somehow in the game. As for save flavor, you can probably trust it.
With regards to flavor, you should not assume alignment based on the show, as I said. Outside of Twilight and the Deadly Alliance, no character's game alignment should be taken at face value based on the show.
Kill flavor is just that, flavor. I know in some setups it's important, but not here. If a player is killed in the story, someone killed them in game. That's the important part.
Saves are much the same way. A player who is saved from dying in the story was saved somehow in the game. As for save flavor, you can probably trust it.
@Jabberwock I actually thought a lot more was revealed in the discussion but I want to spend some time going over an reviewing it. There were definite potential mafian plays by NP.
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