Discussion Why Banning DCE is stupid-the score settled

[RisingRaichuu]

All this talk about banning DCE from Expanded recently has been making me go crazy. I cannot believe that anyone would be so ridiculous as to even suggest the idea, but in the light of Anaheim Regionals it has somehow come to pass. So I've decided at last to prove to you all why we need to keep DCE. Without further ado, here we go:
PART 1-Why the arguments for banning DCE are stupid.
1. All the best decks in Expanded use DCE. This is nonsense. All the best decks in Expanded use Ultra Ball (all but 3 of the Limitless decklists from Anaheim use it-one is Lost March, 2 are Garb decks), but no-one is suggesting the banning of Ultra Ball. Other cards like Vs Seeker and Professor Sycamore are in just as many Expanded decks, but nobody wants them banned. Therefore there is no problem with DCE being in all the biggest Expanded decks.
2. DCE allows for lazy card design. I think there's more than one culprit here. Vs Seeker allows for lazy card design as it lets one off supporters be used again and again. Sableye (Junk Hunt) allows for lazy card design as it lets one off Items and Ace Specs be pulled back from the discard. So does any other recovery card in the game. Yet none of these are anywhere close to a banlist, so why should DCE be the sole victim here?
3. DCE hasn't existed for very long. DCE has been around since HGSS, and since HGSS every set has had cards that were built around DCE and were designed assuming DCE was in format. This period encompasses every set legal in Expanded. Banning DCE would remove all these cards and the meta would get ridiculous very quickly.
4. DCE is OP compared to Double Rainbow Energy. DCE is a completely different card to DRE. DRE is a niche card designed for certain decks, similar to Strong Energy and Counter Energy. DCE is a generic card designed to balance the meta and stop Energy acceleration decks being OP. All comparisons made between DCE and DRE are unfair and ridiculous.

PART 2-The arguments for keeping DCE.
1. DCE benefits all decks. It's not just the Tier 1 decks that use DCE-every deck can utilise it to equal gain. Decks such as Gourgeist and Koko Spread gain just as much from having DCE in format as decks such as Zoroark and Vespiquen do. Banning DCE would hurt these rogue decks, or borderline ridiculous decks, just as much as it would hurt the main meyta decks.
2. DCE is a nice balancing effect for Pokemon to utilise. I agree with Robin Schulz here-in his article on Limitless he expressed this point brilliantly. DCE is useful for making cards that would be OP if their attack costed 1 energy, but terrible if it costed 2. For example, Vespiquen's Bee Revenge would be OP if it costed 1 grass energy but terrible if it costed GC. (Grass + Colorless) In this case DCE is almost like a 1.5 energy attachment-a very usefult for Pokemon to utilise.
3. Lots of Pokemon were designed to be based around DCE. To refer to my previous point, every set since HGSS has seen Pokemon designed around having DCE used for their attack cost. Banning DCE would make the meta ridiculous as a result.
4. The banning of DCE wouldn't achieve anything. You think Zoroark'll be terrible if DCE goes? Not a chance. They've already banned Hex and Puzzles, and it's still OP. A Dark Patch-oriented Zoroark deck could still dominate at Regionals, only with less room for techs. Furthermore, it'll make Energy acceleration decks like Ray even more ridiculous as they lose their main threat, therefore making the meta even worse than it was prior to the ban.

I hope you've enjoyed reading this little rant, but I hope much more that now everyone'll stop raving about like lunatics for the banning of a necessary card and as a result solving a bad meta by making it even worse.
Yours defiantly,
RisingRaichuu
TLDR: DCE is a necessary card because the meta is designed around it, banning it would make the meta worse, and all the arguments for banning DCE also apply to other cards that everyone's fine to have in format.

 

[PokeMedic]

Early 2018 at a Regional

• "Haha don't have Zoroark-GX? Git gud scrubs

Today at a Regional

• "omg everyone is playing zoroark smh famalamdingdong lets ban DCE"

The more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[Otaku]

Note: For the sake of brevity, I am going to avoid details in this post. Yes, that means this is the short version.

[C] Energy requirements seem to be their own reward; whereas non-[C] requirements must be met with cards of the correct Energy Type any Energy card satisfies [C] Energy requirements. A Special Energy that rewards a card for being blessed with an attack that has a [CC] in the cost instead of [XC] or [XX] - where "X" is a non-[C] requirement seems foolish. Energy acceleration is potent, and many of the balance issues in our game stem from it being far too readily available.

This is not a new position for me. I've been playing since 1999. You know how Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal were in the early cardpool and helped to shape the metagame? Decks like Haymaker and Rain Dance? Double Colorless Energy was still a potent play back then, and still causing problems when the developers either "forgot" about it or simply underestimated what it could do for certain cards. It wasn't a mystery to the powers-that-be, either. Double Colorless Energy released in Base Set, was reprinted in Base Set 2 (a rushed, filler set) but was not reprinted again until HeartGold & SoulSilver (the set) released in 2010. Which means the original Standard Format of 2001-2002 (then better known as the "Modified" Format) did not contain Double Colorless Energy. No future Standard Format would until it was reprinted in 2010. There were multiple reprint-based sets during this period, including an early, all-reprint one called the Legendary Collection.

Since being reprinted in HeartGold & SoulSilver, potent attackers, combos, and decks have arisen that seem to throw game balance and enjoyment for a loop. It wasn't just the older cards that were still legal at the time of this reprinting; there are high profile examples of cards that dramatically skewed the metagame from then until the present. We have more than enough evidence that the game's designers either cannot or will not avoid such problems in the future. It is mostly a matter of waiting for them to do such a bad job that eventually, they have to ban either DCE or whatever card finally crosses the line. Given its history, I think DCE should be allowed to rotate from the Standard Format, then banned from Expanded.

This will not happen; the powers-that-be have far too high of standards for a card being banned. DCE is one of many cards that are too potent for the game's overall good but not so glaringly broken that the-powers-that-be must act upon it. Like these other cards, they'll just create a "heightened" balance where competitive play revolves around the same 5-20% of the card pool. Even if we get a card that does create an obviously unhealthy environment, there is always the chance that DCE's involvement will be overshadowed by something even more "broken". I think that has already happened, with Lysandre's Trump Card and the Seismitoad-EX decks of the time.

Edit: I do not wish to stumble into an ad hominem attack, but you'll notice how I did not directly address @RisingRaichuu 's comment or arguments. That's because I've spent the last few days arguing with folks about it elsewhere, and have no more patience for what I see as bad arguments. Still, I should at least address them enough to explain why I take such a rude and/or cowardly sounding stance. If one's argument for why DCE is perfectly fine rests on "Well, that other card is played in even more decks! Why aren't you saying it should be banned?" this ignores that

• I might think that other card should be banned.
• That other card operates in a completely different manner than DCE.

Sometimes this kind of argument can be valid, but not in this case. For example, when someone tells me that something is balanced simply because there are counters for it, I will ask them to tell me what card on the current Ban List does not have a counter? All of them have counters, but timing, efficacy, and what it does to the enjoyment of the game are all factors.

 

[Mega Mewthree...]

If anything the solution is banning Zoroark-GX, not DCE.

Zoroark has an insane ability, a decent attack an uncommonly high hit points. Also banning Zoroark would only damage Zoroark whereas banning DCE would harm most Pokemon decks (meta and non-meta).

 

[Kent Freeze]

Could they errata Zoroark to make the ability not stack? You cannot do more than 1 "trade" per turn? Would make the card a lot more balanced.

 

[JumpluffTCG]

I feel like if they want to fix all the things wrong with Expanded then they would have to revamp the whole thing all together. Just banning DCE or banning Zoroark probably won't do much so long as cards like Delinquent, Red Card, Lusamine, Trick Shovel, Oranguru, Trevenant, Seismitoad EX, Shaymin EX, Glaceon GX, Tropical Beach, etc. etc. etc. are all accounted for in some way. Else, as new cards get released, more degenerate combinations will inevitably surface and players will continue to find ways around the specific bans and keep this train of uninteractive decks going.

Note that I'm not suggesting all these things I mentioned be banned. But I am saying that just banning DCE would likely cause more chaos than anything, meanwhile not fix what I interpret the "problem" is, or the reason why we're having this discussion today (ZoroToad?)

 

[birdboy2000]

The problem is Zoroark, the problem's been Zoroark since it was printed. We don't have a problem with DCE decks in general, but with one specific one.

 

[Skeleton Liar]

The first I heard about this whole "ban DCE" issue was from a video. Just from the title of the video, posing the question of it being banned, my initial thought was just... "Are you serious?" It sounds like people are trying to shift the blame on DCE rather than address the actual issue(s). Banning DCE harms more than just Zoroark and/or Seismitoad. And even if you do ban DCE, what's stopping people from using Dark or Aqua Patch instead? Or--aside from maybe deck or bench space--what's stopping people from using Naganadel and Quagsire for both Zoroark and Seismitoad? Yes, there's item lock. Yes, there's Garbotoxin Garbodor. Players far better than me can find other solutions and counters; these are just off the top of my head. My point is, these cards have ways around DCE, if it was banned, and all the ban would accomplish is making other decks less viable.

But let's say people whine loud enough and TPCi bans DCE, and let's say it does significantly affect Zoroark and Seismitoad. I guarantee you, something else will dominate in Expanded. What then? More whining for a ban? Unless something is truly broken--not just really good--or it prevents your opponent from setting up before their first turn starts, then it shouldn't be banned. Why anyone would stubbornly say DCE is a problem is beyond me.

And quite frankly, this is why the Expanded format is just an unappealing mess to me. I feel like it could be fun. I really like the thought of M Gardevoir EX and Giratina. Things like that where a new card comes out and makes you think, "Oh! That would've worked brilliantly this older card that's no longer in rotation. Let's make that deck!" And Expanded totally can be that way among friends. But competitively, it seems like a lot of control decks--the most frustrating things to play against. "Hey, remember some of the decks that nobody liked to play against over the past few years? Well, they're all back! AND they've gotten more cards since then to help them out. Wanna play?" NOPE. And that's why I decided to not attend the Regionals near me after I found out it was Expanded.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

[C] Energy requirements seem to be their own reward; whereas non-[C] requirements must be met with cards of the correct Energy Type any Energy card satisfies [C] Energy requirements. A Special Energy that rewards a card for being blessed with an attack that has a [CC] in the cost instead of [XC] or [XX] - where "X" is a non-[C] requirement seems foolish. Energy acceleration is potent, and many of the balance issues in our game stem from it being far too readily available.

Just as Dimension Valley rewards cards for being Psychic-type. Beast Ring rewards cards for being blessed with their Ultra Beast status. Cards are rewarded for being blessed with certain traits in the Pokemon TCG all the time.

This is not a new position for me. I've been playing since 1999. You know how Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal were in the early cardpool and helped to shape the metagame? Decks like Haymaker and Rain Dance? Double Colorless Energy was still a potent play back then, and still causing problems when the developers either "forgot" about it or simply underestimated what it could do for certain cards. It wasn't a mystery to the powers-that-be, either. Double Colorless Energy released in Base Set, was reprinted in Base Set 2 (a rushed, filler set) but was not reprinted again until HeartGold & SoulSilver (the set) released in 2010. Which means the original Standard Format of 2001-2002 (then better known as the "Modified" Format) did not contain Double Colorless Energy. No future Standard Format would until it was reprinted in 2010. There were multiple reprint-based sets during this period, including an early, all-reprint one called the Legendary Collection.

Vs Seeker was printed in EX FireRed and LeafGreen, then allowed to rotate out, then recalled to Standard in Phantom Forces. So was Cynthia. (not PONT) Cynthia didn't return because Pokemon had forgotten how good PONT was, it was because there would be a lack of draw support after rotation and Cynthia would help with that. So too was DCE-it returned to stop energy acceleration and Stage 2 decks being OP.

Since being reprinted in HeartGold & SoulSilver, potent attackers, combos, and decks have arisen that seem to throw game balance and enjoyment for a loop. It wasn't just the older cards that were still legal at the time of this reprinting; there are high profile examples of cards that dramatically skewed the metagame from then until the present. We have more than enough evidence that the game's designers either cannot or will not avoid such problems in the future.

There have been a lot of meta problems since HGSS, but how is that DCE's fault? Since HGSS DCE has been reprinted time and time again to keep it Standard legal, so Pokemon want it in standard. This proves that Pokemon are designing their cards around DCE-it isn't skewing the meta.

This will not happen; the powers-that-be have far too high of standards for a card being banned. DCE is one of many cards that are too potent for the game's overall good but not so glaringly broken that the-powers-that-be must act upon it. Like these other cards, they'll just create a "heightened" balance where competitive play revolves around the same 5-20% of the card pool. Even if we get a card that does create an obviously unhealthy environment, there is always the chance that DCE's involvement will be overshadowed by something even more "broken". I think that has already happened, with Lysandre's Trump Card and the Seismitoad-EX decks of the time.

This heightened balance already exists-by this argument Pokemon should ban Shaymin, Lele, Ultra Ball, Vs Seeker, Trainers Mail, Battle Compressor, Super Rod, Rescue Stretcher, Choice Band, Computer Search, etc.

Sometimes this kind of argument can be valid, but not in this case. For example, when someone tells me that something is balanced simply because there are counters for it, I will ask them to tell me what card on the current Ban List does not have a counter? All of them have counters, but timing, efficacy, and what it does to the enjoyment of the game are all factors.

What is the counter to Hex, other than Stoutland?
What is the counter to Puzzles, other than Vileplume/Trev?
What is the counter to Archeops, other than Wobbuffet?
OK, I'll bring a Stoutland/Vileplume/Wobbuffet deck to the next Expanded regionals!
DCE doesn't make the game less fun, rather it makes the game more fun as it enables more crazy combos like Garchomp/Lucario, etc.

Thank you very much for your complaints, I've tried my best to address them.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

@Otaku said what I was going to.

Saying "why the arguments are stupid" means you have no real interest in discourse on the subject. Also, the card list you listed would be banned in most other card games,

 

[JumpluffTCG]

What is the counter to Hex, other than Stoutland?
What is the counter to Puzzles, other than Vileplume/Trev?
What is the counter to Archeops, other than Wobbuffet?
OK, I'll bring a Stoutland/Vileplume/Wobbuffet deck to the next Expanded regionals!
DCE doesn't make the game less fun, rather it makes the game more fun as it enables more crazy combos like Garchomp/Lucario, etc.

Not trying to take sides here because I don't have many grand notions of how this game should be designed and whatnot. That being said, I don't know where you were trying to go with this point. I'm wondering if you just completely misinterpreted what Otaku said, because your comment here seems to just reinforce Otaku's point? At least the Stoutland/Vileplume/Wobbuffet part. If your position is that DCE makes the game more fun, that's fine, and I'm inclined to agree with you there. But the first part of this made no sense.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I think there’s some merit to banning DCE in Expanded, but let’s be honest, it’s not going to happen. Pokemon doesn’t aggressively monitor Expanded format. I could make a case to ban more than just DCE (cards like Dimension Valley and Battle Compressor come to mind) that would make the format more balanced.

I think the fact that you’re limited to four DCE and that there’s a lot of options for special energy removal means that DCE will never be banned.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

Not trying to take sides here because I don't have many grand notions of how this game should be designed and whatnot. That being said, I don't know where you were trying to go with this point. I'm wondering if you just completely misinterpreted what Otaku said, because your comment here seems to just reinforce Otaku's point? At least the Stoutland/Vileplume/Wobbuffet part. If your position is that DCE makes the game more fun, that's fine, and I'm inclined to agree with you there. But the first part of this made no sense.

All the banned cards mentioned here have no reliable counters.

 

[PokeMedic]

Now I'm seeing this card was ahead of its time. Gotta pull these out for League play sometime.

 

[Otaku]

Thank you very much for your complaints, I've tried my best to address them.

Unfortunately, most of your answers are rather baffling. I won't claim that my own initial comment was a clear, easy read but I also won't ignore that you are still making illogical arguments, or at least those that require extreme leaps in logic. "X is okay because Y is okay." only works if you can explain why "Y" is okay. Telling me DCE is okay because Dimension Valley exists doesn't work because that assumes

• I think Dimension Valley is a well-balanced card
• That the two are so similar the reasoning behind one being balanced applies to the other

Nor does it explain why rewarding [C] Energy costs is inherently balanced and won't create problems with future card design.

I would actually bring up Dimension Valley as an example of another card that probably needs to be banned sooner rather than later. Let us ignore some of the potent decks it has enabled for a moment; you probably feel all are properly balanced or at least, weren't overly potent because of Dimension Valley. All future cards must still be designed with Dimension Valley in mind, lest they form a broken combo in the Expanded Format. Yes, it is possible that the cards' designers could do that, but unless something else renders Dimension Valley a non-issue (like an even more overly potent Stadium for [P] Types), we're really just waiting for someone to drop the ball.

All the banned cards mentioned here have no reliable counters.

I never said they had reliable counters; I pointed out that many arguments I've encountered that seek to justify DCE rely on there being "counters" for it. This is an oversimplification. Not only must there be an answer for decks benefiting from a card, but the answer itself needs to be properly balanced. As opposed to, for example, punishing any Special Energy card without an immediate benefit, or locking players into very specific deck design choices.

I should have also made it clear that something isn't "balanced" just because there is something more broken available. If no one uses DCE because single-Energy attackers or other forms of Energy acceleration mean the top decks don't need it, that isn't really balanced, either. It is just an example of a more immediate problem.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

I would actually bring up Dimension Valley as an example of another card that probably needs to be banned sooner rather than later. Let us ignore some of the potent decks it has enabled for a moment; you probably feel all are properly balanced or at least, weren't overly potent because of Dimension Valley. All future cards must still be designed with Dimension Valley in mind, lest they form a broken combo in the Expanded Format. Yes, it is possible that the cards' designers could do that, but unless something else renders Dimension Valley a non-issue (like an even more overly potent Stadium for [P] Types), we're really just waiting for someone to drop the ball.

The main difference between DCE and Dimension Valley is that Dimension Valley is not standard legal and has never been reprinted (even through Generations), where as DCE has been reprinted many times since HGSS to keep it Standard. This shows that Pokemon want DCE to be standard because of the decks it enables to do well, that it wants to market.
Dimension Valley might be a good choice to ban sometime, yes! I agree with you there! But Dimension Valley only benefits a select few decks (Trev, Night March, Garb variants) whereas DCE benefits all kinds of decks. Furthermore, there are plenty of alternatives to Dimension Valley (play Zoroark?) whereas the only alternative to DCE (or Dimension Valley) is Energy acceleration, which would become just as bad in a post-DCE format as Zoroark is now.

 

[Lanstar]

Honestly, I find DCE to be a backbone card in the game since the HGSS era: As said before, all cards implemented since then revolved around taking this card's energy cost into account - and banning the card would mess up the entire synergy the card has had upon the metagame.

The [CC] cost is no more a blessing than the attacks that revolve around it. Lots of cards have this cost, but they are anything but broken. It is just that the very few that do have it have proven to be so broken, that too many players just play it as the only energy needed. That's just a sign that those cards are broken, not DCE.

Also, there is something about attacks that require Basic Energies + DCE in order to use. If you ban DCE just to balance many strategies into attaching 2 energy cards instead of 1, you are also making lots of unbroken strategies require 3 attachments instead of two, and even 4 attachments instead of 2 or 3. Worse is how many strategies need to discard energies to attack, like Alolan Ninetales-GX, and you increase their discard penalty even more.

So to me, DCE doesn't need to go - The game creators just need to have more discipline to making attacks that revolve around it as a single attachment. And no doubt: Zoroark-GX, Night March, Seismitod-EX, among other cards were big mistakes in card creation because of how they abused the 'single attach' clause with their attacks.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

The main difference between DCE and Dimension Valley is that Dimension Valley is not standard legal and has never been reprinted (even through Generations), where as DCE has been reprinted many times since HGSS to keep it Standard. This shows that Pokemon want DCE to be standard because of the decks it enables to do well, that it wants to market.
Dimension Valley might be a good choice to ban sometime, yes! I agree with you there! But Dimension Valley only benefits a select few decks (Trev, Night March, Garb variants) whereas DCE benefits all kinds of decks. Furthermore, there are plenty of alternatives to Dimension Valley (play Zoroark?) whereas the only alternative to DCE (or Dimension Valley) is Energy acceleration, which would become just as bad in a post-DCE format as Zoroark is now.

@Otaku makes a good point though. If they want to keep DCE around, then TPC needs to balance all cards released around it. People look at D.Valley because things that interact with it also rely on DCE. Attacks with the [C][C] cost on non colorless attackers are too good. For a DCE, Zoro can hit 2HKO everything in the format and 1HKO things in Expanded. Necrozma can use its GX attack with a D.Valley and DCE. Night March can attack for the same. The attacks are too powerful for their splashable cost. Energy Acceleration has always been a beast on it own and that requires a different thread.

Honestly, I find DCE to be a backbone card in the game since the HGSS era: As said before, all cards implemented since then revolved around taking this card's energy cost into account - and banning the card would mess up the entire synergy the card has had upon the metagame.
The [CC] cost is no more a blessing than the attacks that revolve around it. Lots of cards have this cost, but they are anything but broken. It is just that the very few that do have it have proven to be so broken, that too many players just play it as the only energy needed. That's just a sign that those cards are broken, not DCE.
Also, there is something about attacks that require Basic Energies + DCE in order to use. If you ban DCE just to balance many strategies into attaching 2 energy cards instead of 1, you are also making lots of unbroken strategies require 3 attachments instead of two, and even 4 attachments instead of 2 or 3. Worse is how many strategies need to discard energies to attack, like Alolan Ninetales-GX, and you increase their discard penalty even more.
So to me, DCE doesn't need to go - The game creators just need to have more discipline to making attacks that revolve around it as a single attachment. And no doubt: Zoroark-GX, Night March, Seismitod-EX, among other cards were big mistakes in card creation because of how they abused the 'single attach' clause with their attacks.

Wally was banned even though only one deck really benefited from it. Many other decks were hurt by the Wally ban. Only one deck benefited from Trump Card but many other decks was hurt by its ban. Bans don't play favorites. Many decks are hurt by the ban and the Colorless type hurts more because of other types with really powerful attacks using the attack cost. Other decks suffer, sure but they shouldn't have [C][C] as attack cost anyway and if they do, then the attacks need to be less powerful, like they were back in the days to compensate for them being splashable.

 

[alyL]

@Otaku makes a good point though. If they want to keep DCE around, then TPC needs to balance all cards released around it. People look at D.Valley because things that interact with it also rely on DCE. Attacks with the [C][C] cost on non colorless attackers are too good. For a DCE, Zoro can hit 2HKO everything in the format and 1HKO things in Expanded. Necrozma can use its GX attack with a D.Valley and DCE. Night March can attack for the same. The attacks are too powerful for their splashable cost. Energy Acceleration has always been a beast on it own and that requires a different thread.

Yet again the issue isn't with DCE, it's with the attacks themselves. Sure, DCE can 2HKO everything on Zoro, but only because of how Zoro's attack works. DCE can also do 20 damage when attached to a Slugma.

It's not DCE that's inherently broken, it's the attacks and their unfair cost.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

@Otaku makes a good point though. If they want to keep DCE around, then TPC needs to balance all cards released around it. People look at D.Valley because things that interact with it also rely on DCE. Attacks with the [C][C] cost on non colorless attackers are too good. For a DCE, Zoro can hit 2HKO everything in the format and 1HKO things in Expanded. Necrozma can use its GX attack with a D.Valley and DCE. Night March can attack for the same. The attacks are too powerful for their splashable cost. Energy Acceleration has always been a beast on it own and that requires a different thread.

These attacks can be very powerful, but not necessarily. Look at Nosepass BCR! These attacks would be too OP for a single energy attachment, while they would be unplayable for 2 energy (not CC). DCE is necessary to give attacks a 1.5-energy cost.