Discussion Why Banning DCE is stupid-the score settled

[Matux]

Personally, I agree with a lot of things said in this topic.
I don't think DCE is broken, it's just a card that is core in this game to balance things.

About the Zoroark ban :

The fact is that both in expanded and standard, since Zoroark GX was released, you face a deck built around the card, at least, 25% of your games.
The card is definitely strong, but I don't know if it's broken. I will give ideas without order, with pros and cons :
-> Drawing 8 cards a turn with your main attacker without any supporter is insane, but it's an ability so it's weak to ability lock (Garbodor, Greninja)
-> Hitting up to 210 for 1 energy is almost all you need to oneshot any kind of opponent, but it's weak to bench lock (Lycanroc, sudowoodo, parallel city) and this energy is a DCE so you have the classic DCE issues (only 4 in a deck, special energy removals / lock, hard to recycle under item lock, DCE walls, shuckle)
The fact that you have counters doesn't mean that it's balanced but it's definitely part of it.

Taking the problem in another way is observing the reasons that justify a ban.
-> Archeops / Hex were banned because it denies some strategies to happen almost definitely
-> Forest of Giant Plants / Ghetsis / Wally (with trevenant) were banned because it was toxic if used turn one
-> Puzzle of Time is too flexible
(I will not talk about Lysandre's Trump Card because I was not playing when the card was legal so I'm not really sure about the ban reasons)


If Zoroark can enter in a category listed before, it should be the flexibility.
But puzzle of time was a trainer card that you can use instantly allowing combos with everything in your discard pile when Zoroark is a stage 1 pokemon and all things that are related (weakness, necessity to evolve, energy cost, ...). Yes, it's flexible in the fact that it can be used in many decks but it's not flexible in a specific deck as puzzle of time. For example, in a Zoroark control, the only things it allows in itself is drawing 2-8 cards and hitting for 0 - 180 damages.
It can be a new reason a well.
Personally, I don't have a well defined opinion on a potential Zoroark ban. For me, consistency was already here with basic pokemon decks and the only thing it gives to the game is relying on choices instead of luck. I don't think it's that bad.

 

[Lord Goomy]

Now, I would agree with this being a busted card that needs to be banned if we didn’t have plenty of cards readily available to remove DCE from play, and there is no way in Standard to get DCE back. DCE itself is busted, but all other cards (present or absent) make it balanced.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

I will not talk about Lysandre's Trump Card because I was not playing when the card was legal so I'm not really sure about the ban reasons

LTC was banned because:
It allowed indefinite recovery of resources, that could be drawn through easily using Shaymin
It prevented either player ever decking out
It made the game not fun to play

 

[Wechselbalg]

Imagine what Expanded would be like if LTC still existed alongside Lusamine and Zoroark - it's basically the ptcg equivalent of dividing the world by zero lol

On a more serious note, if Zoroark does get a ban I'd like to get back Hex, at least. I miss Puzzle too but that's one of those cards that only gets more and more busted with each new set release so it should stay banned.

 

[Alex Sableye]

Ok, so I agree with a lot of things said in this thread, and want to add my two cents.

So I'll begin by highlighting the pros and cons.

PROS: Let's slow cards set up reasonably quickly (Garchomp, Lugia EX)
Adds a commonly played Special Energy so that cards like Aegislash EX, Xurkitree GX, and Jirachi actually have a niche
Gives [C] Pokemon something special to make up for not hitting weakness

CONS: Let's Pokemon that would be reasonably balanced without the existence of DCE grow out of control (Gardevoir GX, Zoroark GX, Night March)
Creates an unhealthy dependency on it so that if you play only DCE, you may be completely locked out of the game (Night March, some Zoroark Variants)

Without DCE in the meta, some decks would be brought somewhat under control, but it would create a world where only energy acceleration decks, pokemin with low energy requirements, and stall decks can thrive. Decks like Rayquaza, Gardevoir, and Metagross would get completely out of control due to their ability to attach energy faster and more consistently than their competitors. In fact, Rayquaza might actually go as uncontested BDIF. It would also make decks like Garchomp fade out of thought completely.

As such, I think a banning of the card is in order, but it should be replaced with a card that does nearly the same thing, but in a reasonable way. I can't think of a specific way to do that unfortunately, and I don't think there's an easy solution.

For the moment, I believe DCE should stay in the TCG, because the problems it's removal would create are greater than the problems it's existence causes.

(I apologize if this is illegible)