Ok so most people are aware that Lysandres Trump card will be banned June 15th. One of the reasons the card got banned was it took away a win condition of decking out. After the ban Mill decks might be played again but will they be good at all. As of right now there are only a handful of cards that allow you to Mill your opponents deck and most of those cards are not really competitive at all and rarely see play even as techs. With that being said do you guys think or will you guys play mill decks and what combos have you thought of? A combo I was thinking about that I cannot take credit for is M Absol EX/Ninjask/ Milotoc (sparkling ripples)/ Trick Shovel and a large amount of switching cards. The strategy would be to use M Absol EX as your main attacker and discard a card from your opponents deck with every attack. The strategy would also use Ninjask to discard a and then discard a card from your opponents deck, naturally pairing with exeggcute. Then use trick Shovel to further discard cards, and Milotic to get back the trick shovels or switching cards.
Discussion Viability of Mill Decks when the LTC Ban Occurs
- Thread starter Ironman131
- Start date
There really hasn't been a competitive mill deck since Durant Mill from the 2011-2012 season. all of the key cards in this deck have rotated, and with Pichu and Flower Shop Laby being from the HGSS era, they can't even be used in Expanded. While there are reasonable substitutes of these cards in Expanded (Durant is from Noble Victories), there are so many decks now that can one-shot a 70 HP basic easily, letting them save take prizes before you've milled them down to zero cards in deck.
Even before Phantom Forces was release, mill decks had almost no presence in the competitive scene, and were not topping any major events. While I did lose to Aggron DRX at Nationals last year, I was caught off card by it, and was playing against a very experienced Pokedad who clearly knew what he was doing. Aggron too has rotated, but was probably the most reliable of mill strategies since Durant.
The main issue with milling cards is that they tend to be gimmick oriented or require a big investment on something that's going to be KOed by some big EX next turn. Ninjask from Roaring SKies is a good example of a gimmick card. Each Ninask can mill one card from your opponent's deck if it's active. A high switch count will let you cycle them through several in one turn, but being a 60 HP Stage 1, they are very easy to take out. Most other cards in the format simple don't mill enough cards (one at a time seems common) or require coin flips (flip until you get tails, mill one for each heads). Many of these guys, or at least the ones that aren't extremely energy hungry do no damage or very little damage with their milling attacks, meaning you won't be knocking anything out. That puts mill decks at a major disadvantage- they have no access to their prizes, even if Town Map is played. IF an important resource is prized, there is virtually no way of retrieving it.
Even before Phantom Forces was release, mill decks had almost no presence in the competitive scene, and were not topping any major events. While I did lose to Aggron DRX at Nationals last year, I was caught off card by it, and was playing against a very experienced Pokedad who clearly knew what he was doing. Aggron too has rotated, but was probably the most reliable of mill strategies since Durant.
The main issue with milling cards is that they tend to be gimmick oriented or require a big investment on something that's going to be KOed by some big EX next turn. Ninjask from Roaring SKies is a good example of a gimmick card. Each Ninask can mill one card from your opponent's deck if it's active. A high switch count will let you cycle them through several in one turn, but being a 60 HP Stage 1, they are very easy to take out. Most other cards in the format simple don't mill enough cards (one at a time seems common) or require coin flips (flip until you get tails, mill one for each heads). Many of these guys, or at least the ones that aren't extremely energy hungry do no damage or very little damage with their milling attacks, meaning you won't be knocking anything out. That puts mill decks at a major disadvantage- they have no access to their prizes, even if Town Map is played. IF an important resource is prized, there is virtually no way of retrieving it.
With respect to the "Viability of Mill Decks when the LTC Ban Occurs", Durant (NVI) and Aggron (DRX) might have a shot at being competitive in Expanded, but Ninjask doesn't do enough without a great set-up and resources. A few cards at a time will only be a threat to the most aggressive of decks. Now the older two cards I mentioned (assuming I got the right versions) can do some crazy stuff. For Aggron, if it can't be OHKOed let it soak a hit up front before bouncing the entire line, otherwise use Bunnelby (Ancient Trait version) or Sableye (DEX); either can reclaim useful cards from the discard pile and the former can also discard by attacking. Durant just needs to be Durant.
M Absol-EX doesn't do a whole lot of milling, but has the advantage of dealing major damage most of the time and has a good amount of HP with which to work. I think it will see some play, despite not having a Spirit Link, due to being able to simultaneously work towards two win conditions.
I have been playing with this on and off for the last couple weeks. Yes, there are not any Competitive cards to make it viable but on average I can get them down to 10 +/- 5 cards consistently. It just doesnt have the ooomph to get the remainder. Although it has been successful on many occasions!
My setup consists of bunnelby PRC and durant FLF only. running minimal pokemon, even only one of each and then 4x revive and using trainers mail to pull them out or back out after being KOed. Of course the beauty is only giving one prize card at a time but with 60 & 70HP the get knocked out easily so running a good deal of disruption cards is a must!!! Enhanced hammers, TFG, Switching cards (Lysandre, switch, escape rope), Startling Mega, Trick Shovel. PRC diggersby can be a good upgrade but personally I hate coin flips and you need to tech in some trick coin or even focus sash to prevent OHKO, but with luck on your side this can be that extra ooomph!, my testing, not consistent enough + stage 1 takes up space with evosodas, wally's or whatever.
Only running 1 of each increases the chance of dead draws, the more you get the better and hopefully your digital pokerface will have your opponent fill his hand then drawing an active durant and energy your 1st turn hits em hard with a good amount discarded (Always choose to go second with these decks)
Ninjask is nice for an extra card or 2 or 3 but its usually slow to set up and then sucks your switching cards up quickly.
Interested in exporing this more cause i like rouge decks, so hit me up for convo
My setup consists of bunnelby PRC and durant FLF only. running minimal pokemon, even only one of each and then 4x revive and using trainers mail to pull them out or back out after being KOed. Of course the beauty is only giving one prize card at a time but with 60 & 70HP the get knocked out easily so running a good deal of disruption cards is a must!!! Enhanced hammers, TFG, Switching cards (Lysandre, switch, escape rope), Startling Mega, Trick Shovel. PRC diggersby can be a good upgrade but personally I hate coin flips and you need to tech in some trick coin or even focus sash to prevent OHKO, but with luck on your side this can be that extra ooomph!, my testing, not consistent enough + stage 1 takes up space with evosodas, wally's or whatever.
Only running 1 of each increases the chance of dead draws, the more you get the better and hopefully your digital pokerface will have your opponent fill his hand then drawing an active durant and energy your 1st turn hits em hard with a good amount discarded (Always choose to go second with these decks)
Ninjask is nice for an extra card or 2 or 3 but its usually slow to set up and then sucks your switching cards up quickly.
Interested in exporing this more cause i like rouge decks, so hit me up for convo
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I was thinking about this topic too. One idea that I had was to use AT Rhyperior, XY Rhydon, and Shrine of Memories to use Mad Mountain to Mill. You would need to use Trick Coin since Mad Mountain needs 2 heads to discard cards from the opponent's deck. But if you were able to pull off the move, you could potentially discard a quarter of the opponent's deck in one turn. AT Rhyperior is also very bulky for a non-EX and gains even more bulk from its ability. Its regular attack also does heavy damage, so you could take prizes if you needed to, while also helping with the Milling theme. AT Bunnelby was also gonna be in the deck to start Milling while Rhyperior is charging up. What do you guys think? It sounds like a lot of fun, but its inconsistent and needs a lot of time to set up. Also another question. Is there a Pokemon in the current format that has an attack where you "flip a coin for every damage counter on this Pokemon. For every heads Discard the top card from your Opponent's Deck"? I could've sworn that was a thing.
The best mill decks I have tested also use disruption like crushing/enhanced hammer to slow your opponent. This gives you more time before you opponent can take 6 prizes. use of hammers and catchers normally give me just enough time to mill all of my opponents deck. But these decks get stopped by toad.
Hypno from Furious Fists has an attack that lets you use a supporter card in your opponent's hand on them, so you could Sycamore/Juniper their hand away and make them draw 7 new cards. If you do this for like 2-3 turns in a row and combine it with Bunnelby from Primal Clash and Life Dew, you have a great mill deck.
The fighting lines and shrine of memories just dont cut it, like you said, too bulky. I tried shrine with diggersby and quickly realised it lost the effect of bunnelbys trait and then the crap luck I get with coin flips, would rather just mill 2 more cards with the bunny.
I like the idea thood but again its relying on the luck that your opponent has that card in their hand or even in their deck to begin with, tbh I see people more and more with shauna/birch which is good for disruption but again, it wastes your attack being able to discard.
I have some captures that can be upped to YT. I collate a few more and post them so I can maybe get some more ideas flowing for us
I like the idea thood but again its relying on the luck that your opponent has that card in their hand or even in their deck to begin with, tbh I see people more and more with shauna/birch which is good for disruption but again, it wastes your attack being able to discard.
I have some captures that can be upped to YT. I collate a few more and post them so I can maybe get some more ideas flowing for us
GadgetJax
Traveling Storyteller and Card Faker
The simple answer to why Mill decks aren't going to be AAA material is because of Rotom UD. The reason Durant was successful in the first place was because it didn't have to worry about prizing a Durant or two thanks to being able to swap out any unlucky Prizes. Without it, every Mill deck in the format is controlled by luck, and sicne you didn't run any GOOD attackers in the deck, you had no way of fishing out any of your Prizes. If Rotom comes back as a pseudo-reprint like Unown from Ancient Origins, it could certainly make Ninjask/Bunnelby at least decent to use, but even if it did, many of the Standard/Expanded mill decks have their own problems...
-Durant NVI has pathetic HP that can easily be donked, even if you have a Shield Energy and a Hard Charm equipped. Also, if it ever did come back, Heatmor DEX would be the penultimate nail in the coffin for it.
-Aggron DRX / Sableye DEX is arguably the best one to use in Expanded, but it relies too heavily on Items like Devolution Spray and Trick Shovel, so any lock deck at all would make it nearly impossible to play, and with so many Item lockers like Trevenant XY, Seismitoad-EX, Zebstrika NXD, and Vileplume ANC, it's too risky to play competitively.
-Swoobat BCR would be hilarious to play with Gardevoir NXD and Ancient Togekiss combined. In fact, I'd say it's crazy enough to work, but the fact that it needs 2 Stage 2 lines to work means that pressure decks like Landorus-EX / Crobat will shut it down before it can do anything.
-Rhydon XY may be able to mill the most cards at a time when combined with Ancient Rhyperior & Celebi-EX to keep it sturdy, but you can't expect 2 coin flips to work successfully. That's a 25% chance of working, and if you are allowed to reflip with Victini NVI, that's still only around a 37.5% chance. (estimate)
-Ancient Bunnelby may be good for milling 2 at a time, but that's all it does. Every other mill card I've mentioned so far mills (1) more cards than him or (2) mills based on a seperate factor. Durant maxes out at 4, Aggron mills 3 at a time and more with several Devolution Sprays per turn, Swoobat is infinite based on your total amount of Energy, and even Rhydon of all things can do around 8-9 with a few lucky flips.
-Ninjask ROS is very consistent, but the low HP and factor that restricts you to being Active means you need to run tons of Switch and Hard Charm in your deck, reducing your consistency severely.
Still, even with those problems, I could find quite a fun experience with them. I've tested Ninjask/Bunnelby a few times with average results, but the other ones could be great fun to use.
-Durant NVI has pathetic HP that can easily be donked, even if you have a Shield Energy and a Hard Charm equipped. Also, if it ever did come back, Heatmor DEX would be the penultimate nail in the coffin for it.
-Aggron DRX / Sableye DEX is arguably the best one to use in Expanded, but it relies too heavily on Items like Devolution Spray and Trick Shovel, so any lock deck at all would make it nearly impossible to play, and with so many Item lockers like Trevenant XY, Seismitoad-EX, Zebstrika NXD, and Vileplume ANC, it's too risky to play competitively.
-Swoobat BCR would be hilarious to play with Gardevoir NXD and Ancient Togekiss combined. In fact, I'd say it's crazy enough to work, but the fact that it needs 2 Stage 2 lines to work means that pressure decks like Landorus-EX / Crobat will shut it down before it can do anything.
-Rhydon XY may be able to mill the most cards at a time when combined with Ancient Rhyperior & Celebi-EX to keep it sturdy, but you can't expect 2 coin flips to work successfully. That's a 25% chance of working, and if you are allowed to reflip with Victini NVI, that's still only around a 37.5% chance. (estimate)
-Ancient Bunnelby may be good for milling 2 at a time, but that's all it does. Every other mill card I've mentioned so far mills (1) more cards than him or (2) mills based on a seperate factor. Durant maxes out at 4, Aggron mills 3 at a time and more with several Devolution Sprays per turn, Swoobat is infinite based on your total amount of Energy, and even Rhydon of all things can do around 8-9 with a few lucky flips.
-Ninjask ROS is very consistent, but the low HP and factor that restricts you to being Active means you need to run tons of Switch and Hard Charm in your deck, reducing your consistency severely.
Still, even with those problems, I could find quite a fun experience with them. I've tested Ninjask/Bunnelby a few times with average results, but the other ones could be great fun to use.
Mill decks won't be viable when the ban happens.; unless TPCi gives more support for them.
M Absol-EX can mill AND deal major damage, despite not having a Spirit Link, so no worrying about Prize cards there.
I was about to say M Absol but someone else mentioned it already and the "rules" say I can't repeat what someone in the same thread said. Anyways, M Absol seems alright, so as long as you have Shadow Circle in play because his weakness sucks and unlike other millers, he gives up 2 prizes.
Yeah, it's true he gives up two prizes, but compensated by his ability to earn you prizes fast.
I think that mill decks will remain a gimick unless a truly powerful mill card is released. Bunnelby is our best miller right now and only mills two cards a turn. Then Ninjask will maybe get you another card on average, maybe one more with a trick shovel. But all of that is a lot of card spots and devotion to milling so you don't have enough room for disruption cards. When Durant was popular and legal, Pokemon Catcher was not a coin flip, which made the deck very disruptive. Then take into consideration that the deck milled four cards a turn nearly every turn of the game, and had room for disruption cards like hammers. I would not play a mill deck competitively right now, and I don't imagine that many will.
Continued play and I feel like I have made good advance by adding Crawdaunt PRC and with the anouncement of Level Ball being reprinted makes it all the more sweeter. This addition adds the disruptive element of negating your opponent from either attacking or building up benced 'mon (as they need to contiually keep charging their active. This in conjunction with TFG, hammers and other disruptive cards gives a better opportunity to keep milling. It can also take advantage of Scoop ups/AZ which are already implemented. It doesnt detract from keeping a mill pokemon active as it just loves to sit on the bench but can also act as a barrier for a few turns and maybe a sacrifice for only 1 prize. Its basic form of Corphish has a nice DCE attack to discard 1 random card from your opponents hand in those times of need or a bad beginning draw.
Also, switched to fairy energy and added some Fairy garden to implement free retreat.
Now just need to tweak trainers for more efficiency....
Also, switched to fairy energy and added some Fairy garden to implement free retreat.
Now just need to tweak trainers for more efficiency....
I'm pretty sure Mega Swampert will be very useful with a few Sacred Ash (because LTC is gone and would ruin the point of a mill deck anyways) and maybe Aurorus so it can tank long enough to win. Only downside is no spirit link
Here is Mega Swampert (the text not the card):
M Swampert-EX – Water – HP220
Mega Evolution – Evolves from Swampert-EX
When 1 of your Pokemon becomes a Mega Evolution, your turn ends.
[W][W][C][C] Gowan Impact: 130+ damage. You may do 30 more damage. If you do, each player discards the top 3 cards of his or her deck.
When a Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Grass (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 3
Here is Mega Swampert (the text not the card):
M Swampert-EX – Water – HP220
Mega Evolution – Evolves from Swampert-EX
When 1 of your Pokemon becomes a Mega Evolution, your turn ends.
[W][W][C][C] Gowan Impact: 130+ damage. You may do 30 more damage. If you do, each player discards the top 3 cards of his or her deck.
When a Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Grass (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 3
The kiddo and I played our mill deck at league this weekend and it won all games
Although we used 3 level ball (only had 3) and one pokeball as a test for when AO comes out it won against primal groudon, Mew and fairy
Super stoked!
I looked at hugh but didnt like that it takes up a supporter + comparing it to durant leaves them 1 more card, durant is that one extra pokemon that does something a little different and can be used as a buffer/scapegoat to get another turn in if your hand is dead.
Also incorporated 2 robo substitute as a buff to get that extra needed turn or turns. No prize card, can be discarded to bring up a desired benched pokemon and be found with trainers mail. Bonus x3!
Although we used 3 level ball (only had 3) and one pokeball as a test for when AO comes out it won against primal groudon, Mew and fairy
Super stoked!
I looked at hugh but didnt like that it takes up a supporter + comparing it to durant leaves them 1 more card, durant is that one extra pokemon that does something a little different and can be used as a buffer/scapegoat to get another turn in if your hand is dead.
Also incorporated 2 robo substitute as a buff to get that extra needed turn or turns. No prize card, can be discarded to bring up a desired benched pokemon and be found with trainers mail. Bonus x3!