Discussion The Garbodor Effect - Is He Worth It?

[crystal_pidgeot]

Many of you know how I feel about Garbodor and because of that, this is exactly why I'm the right person to talk about this. The format is still quite young but while playing M Mewtwo EX, I noticed a few things. Most decks I've played against were decks that didn't really use Pokemon with Abilities throughout the game. Sure there were a few here and there but out side of Shaymin EX and Hoopa EX, the game has been get out your attacker and swing for big numbers.

While playing my M Mewtwo EX deck, even against decks that really needed Abilities to function, I had issues consistently getting Garbodor out and when I did, I found out that is as only really useful against Greninja - which turned the matchup into an auto win. Against decks like Sceptile EX, they couldn't poison me so Unseen Claw was of no real threat and Volcanion EX can get lots of Damage. It also slows down Flareon EX if they choose to play it but if you're running M Scizor EX, you have other things to worry about, since all their Pokemon knock you out in one hit without the need for abilities.

What I noticed was Garbodor auto wins you one match, and thats Greninja and makes other matches less annoying. Giratina EX is made less annoying if you play Mega Evolved Pokemon but their Basic forms are just as effective in some cases but at least you wouldn't have to worry about, right? So, with only one match being very good for you, is it worth the deck space to run a 2-2 Garbodor line with heavy Float Stone/Switching effects? A lot of the time, I had to baby Garbodor and when I didn't have access to Float Stone, I had to attach Spirit Links to it, which made it a huge Lysandre target. I found myself attaching energy to it and in come cases attacking with it (which isn't all that bad by the way), but I was slowed down and when you are slow, you aren't doing infinite damage to something.

Another thing I noticed is in some cases, I was faster than Greninja so I was able to take prize leads and stack a Mewtwo or two can can go for OHKOs on the breaks. If you're playing M Scizor EX, you can take an early prize lead as well and 2HKO the Greninjas. Now I don't play this deck so I don't know how effective it is against that match but if you already have a good matchup against Greninja, do you really need to hammer in the auto win for a deck you may never see in higher level of play?

This is where the ability to predict the meta come in. Your biggest threats are decks that can KO you in a single hit. M Rayquaza EX and Rainbow Road are two such deck and the only abilities the use are from Shaymin EX and Hoopa EX, like most other decks. Their speed and utility allow them to get setup quickly and hit you hard so your abilities may be safer than you think.

I feel its still important to to keep Garbodor in mind when building your deck. Since Garbodor exist in the format without an effective way to deal with it, the price of setup cards like Shaymin EX and Hoopa EX increase because you have less chances of using something like Octillery - making it a hard meta choice so this is a bad thing because it restrict options but what can you do? For starters, play your deck that needs abilities. Most decks that use Garbodor aren't optimized to use it, meaning they have to fire at line of sight. They may have to give up something to get those Garbodor down. You should also make sure your deck can get the out fast if you want to use them.

If you were on the fence about Garbodor, then you should still be sitting there. Garbodor is a good card and if you find it worth it to improve your matchup against other decks, then go for it. You may find out yourself if Garbodor is holding his weight (lets face it, that 3 retreat cost is huge) but in my many games, it was kind if just there.

The meta may evolve in such a way to were its just not really efficient to use it because of how fast and powerful other decks are so you may be able to use your decks with abilities. If you choose to do so, just know you risk losing to Garbodor. This is why its hard to say otherwise. If players choose to not use Garbodor for events, then you can make something work and while its a factor on deck choice, you may be surprised to find you can get away with some things so I don't think Garbodor will have a total gridlock on the format, though it would be nice to have cards to deal with tools.

 

[PMJ]

Giratina EX is made less annoying if you play Mega Evolved Pokemon but their Basic forms are just as effective in some cases but at least you wouldn't have to worry about, right? So, with only one match being very good for you, is it worth the deck space to run a 2-2 Garbodor line with heavy Float Stone/Switching effects? A lot of the time, I had to baby Garbodor and when I didn't have access to Float Stone, I had to attach Spirit Links to it, which made it a huge Lysandre target.

More on whether or not it's worth it below, but it's just bad luck if you have to attach a Spirit Link to Garbodor. If you run switching cards, you can actually get away with that, but I'd just chalk that up to bad luck. I've rarely, if ever, been without a Garbodor@Float Stone when I really needed it.

Another thing I noticed is in some cases, I was faster than Greninja so I was able to take prize leads and stack a Mewtwo or two can can go for OHKOs on the breaks. If you're playing M Scizor EX, you can take an early prize lead as well and 2HKO the Greninjas. Now I don't play this deck so I don't know how effective it is against that match but if you already have a good matchup against Greninja, do you really need to hammer in the auto win for a deck you may never see in higher level of play?

Garbodor isn't used solely to rub salt in Greninja's wounds. Carbink and Giratina-EX would wall Mewtwo/Scizor without it, as you said. Volcanion has a harder time against Mewtwo when it can't Steam Up, and both decks love not allowing Rayquaza from reusing Set Up and, more importantly, Scoundrel Ring after a Parallel City cleaves their Bench, especially with Karen soon entering the format. And that's to say nothing of the "lesser" abilities that help improve matchups just by shutting down their Abilities: you stop Klefki from walling you for a turn. You stop Hydreigon-EX and Manaphy-EX from giving out (virtually) free retreat. Octillery. Regirock-EX. Vileplume. Yveltal (especially Yveltal). Even Mew-EX, when he rears his ugly head again, is stopped cold by Garbodor.

To me, the benefits of running him far outweigh the benefits of not. As for the question of whether or not you may never see Greninja in higher levels of play, like I said, it's not like we add Garbodor solely to help with that one matchup when it's already in our favor...but there's nothing wrong with eliminating as much luck as we can from the matchup. Why should we settle for a great matchup when we can add Garbodor, seal up the auto-win, and improve our matchups against a dozen other decks? Garbodor is so good right now that whatever opportunity cost you're paying by not using him had better be worth it, or you're just hurting yourself.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I should respond to you. I feel, as least while using M Mewtwo EX, I never really had any issue with Manaphy EX. The only Pokemon that gave me issues were the ones with the blocking attacks. At best I use Manaphy as a way to heal a mewtwo EX but adding 2 Pokemon Ranger to the list really improved the match up. You're right about what you are saying though. It is far better to have the Garbodor in those matches than not. I would love to hear a M Scizor EX player weigh in on this.

 

[Draaka]

I am playing the control Garbo/Tina/Darkrai deck at the moment, I did have some success with garb and some success when I replaced the 2-2 line with a 3 count of Wobbofett. But in the end I went back to garb because the matchups that wob was better were matchups that were still good for me no matter which I played.

It also depends what you pair it with, I'm not convinced that M Mewtwo wants a garbodor in the deck, I thought that deck was about massive speed and consistency for quick pressure. I would have thought a 2 count of hex maniac would have been more efficient for this deck than a 2-2 garbodor line.

Overall if there are high level meta decks that rely on abilities other than t1 shaymin then Garbo will have a place in the format. Especially while there are no tool removals. Maybe later in the format Silent lab or wob will be better.

I don't think it's too overvalued at the moment, but at the moment the format is so unknown that anything could pop up, so something that says "your opponent can't ____" is pretty powerful as you don't know what you are likely gonna end up against.

 

[SpoonLarry]

I have tested garbo in Yveltal, Giratina, mewtwo, raichu, and scizor decks ever since we got news of the rotation and I have to say I don't like him at all. Hundreds of matches and I would have to say maybe only 10% of them he came through. In my early testing I even bumped it to a 3-3 line with in some cases 4 float stones and even still I just could not find myself getting him down when I needed him, and half the time when I could I would pray to god they didn't have a lysandre or vs seeker because they would usually already have something ready to kill it. When I was able to set him up preemptively 80% of the time it was against decks that didn't even care much of its existence. I would run max counts of everything that could help me get him out, 4 ultras, 4 trainers mail, 4 sycamore and even a skyla or 2, even in yveltal and raichu were I could run a bridget to safely land the trubish along side pikachu, zoras or non ex yveltals it just wasn't working out for me at all, all it was doing was taking up 6 minimum spots in my deck were I would constantly find myself cutting consistency cards for the main attacker. I don't know how a 2-2-2 line could be feasible without consistency issues. The only deck I found it remotely consistent in was when I tried it in my garchomp deck when breakpoint first came out, and that's only because korrina can make anything consistent, float stone level ball or evo soda whatever missing peace you had she could get. You could say skyla could do the same thing but the problem is what meta deck that would use garbo run level ball or evo soda? Any rogue deck that would use them doesn't want to shut off its own abilities, and your not going to run 3-4 skylas like you would korrina. Everything other than greninja and giratina to some extent doesn't care about a continuous ability lock, anything else can be solved with the unstoppable hex maniac. Hex or lysandre can deal with manaphy, and most of the time you don't even need to shut off manaphies ability the entire match, a carefully planed out or clutch hex maniac will do just fine, and all you need to do to make hex more consistent is add one more copy of it to your deck, vs seeker does the rest.

 

[poke4trade]

All decks including the Scizor EX decks that run Garbador with 2/2 line + two float stones, do really well. Garbador is not about the first turn lock, the pokemon has never been. It is about creating consistency through the long haul of the game. It eliminates Zorark, Zebastrike, greninija and other ability driven decks through out the long haul of the game. As I said before, Garbador is hard to catch. Lysandre is hard to play in standard format. Decks are slow. The more lysandres that are in a deck, the slower the deck becomes.

What I see trainers becoming frustrated with is by putting to much emphasis on the lock. The lock is a lot like villplumes lock, it can hurt you as much as it can help you. Trainers just need to be wary on how to play the pokemon. Also, Garbador is not needed in every match. It can be a thrown away depending on the matchup. That is what makes him different then Vileplume.

The real irony of Garbodor is that he is sort of a skill card -- though it takes even more skill to play him when a Tool Scrapper is running around - you don't need him every game.

Trainers are struggling to find a deck that allows solitary play in standard. A deck that sort of just lets the opponent watch you play. We had a couple of those decks last season. Fortunately, in standard, those decks haven't been discovered yet. Garbarador will not create that kind of environment because even if you wally into him and float him on first turn, it can hurt both trainers in the long haul of the game because draw support becomes limited for the both of you.

But ya, I've played with all decks mentioned, and he plays like he's always played, match up depended. A lot of times I toss him, but there those few matchups where instead of ultraballing for another Shay for draw support and then play my sycamore down, I just grab trubish, bench him, and play sycamore. A couple of extra of card won't matter in the game if you don't hit trubish, but trubish will matter.

 

[SpoonLarry]

But that's exactly my point, it's not a turn one card, and the very idea of trying to make that happen is nothing but an awful deck, my point wasn't about consistently getting him out turn 1-2, just simply getting him out when you need him without your opponent already having an answer for it. It just takes up space in the deck and for the most part it does the same thing hex maniac does. There are only two arguably meta decks that get hurt by continuous ability lock, greninja and valcanion. I don't think garbo is a skillful card to use at all, its literally a set and forget, you have it or you don't. Spending resources to get him out slowing down your main attacker is only viable when you know ability lock will hamper your opponent more than it will you, and if your in that position than its just a win more card, and you can do the same thing with hex maniac and your opponent has zero outs to it. If your deck can run it Wobbuffet is the better meta call imo because it can turn off explosive starts with shaymin's turn one whether you go first or not. Wobbuffet>Meta decks, Garbo>rogue decks. And your right he is match up dependent, and that's what makes him bad because this is not an ability heavy meta. With my scizor deck the only time I prefer garbo over hex is against greninja and giratina, but I also do just fine without him, and if I don't need him for those match ups than I don't need him at all.

 

[poke4trade]

With my scizor deck the only time I prefer garbo over hex is against greninja and giratina, but I also do just fine without him, and if I don't need him for those match ups than I don't need him at all.

I guess I don't have that same problem. Hex is fine, but a lot of times it does not drop. And when you run two of them the deck can slow down. I've just found that garbador is a better consistent play in standard then Hex. Hex is like lysandre. It really is game dependent on weather it will drop. Plus, you burn a supporter to play hex.

Garbador is a skill card because he is dependent on whether you need the ability or not need the ability based off the deck you are playing against, and how you are drawing. He has a few strategies and that is what makes him ironically skill full to play. Decks with single minded strategies, for example Villeplum/Grinijia/Trev/ Seismitoad are completely dependent on a single minded strategy. They are dependent on you needing to play the same strategy every game over and over again. If you do not accomplish that same strategy every game, you loose. At one point, Yveltal EX and Pyroar was in that group too.

Single minded strategies over the years have been some of the most powerful decks, and are great decks. However, Strategy decks that do a bit of this and that are a bit harder to play because they can require a bit of thought to them based off the game board. A strategy deck would be the Audino deck that won worlds. It's hard to play, and really not that popular, because it requires skill plays at every turn. Most trainers, like myself, prefer single minded decks because it doesn't require that extra bit of strategy to pull it off.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I also want to say I had a game against a Greninja deck where I wasn't able to get Garbodor out until mid game and my opponent had out 2 Breaks but the instant I got out Garbodor, Greninja was shut down. The matchup is much harder without Garbodor so I would think its worth it just for that matchup.

 

[PMJ]

I should respond to you. I feel, as least while using M Mewtwo EX, I never really had any issue with Manaphy EX. The only Pokemon that gave me issues were the ones with the blocking attacks. At best I use Manaphy as a way to heal a mewtwo EX but adding 2 Pokemon Ranger to the list really improved the match up. You're right about what you are saying though. It is far better to have the Garbodor in those matches than not. I would love to hear a M Scizor EX player weigh in on this.

I was responding as a Scizor player; though I have a some experience with Mewtwo, I was referring to Garbodor's inclusion in Scizor.

Greninja can be one of Scizor's more annoying matchups because baby Greninja sits right outside OHKO range, but I tech Giovanni's Scheme so it's less of an issue.

 

[SpoonLarry]

@poke4trade I am finding it really hard to agree with basically anything you are saying so this will be my last response. Choosing to play or setting priority on garbo in a match you don't need it in is playing stupid, and by choosing to play smart doesn't make it a skillful card. I dunno how playing 1 extra hex is slower and more clunky than playing 6 cards, 3 of which need to be in play. Here's a scenario for you that comes up nearly every single game, do I sycamore? If you have 1 or more garbos in your hand or one is prized and you can't play it because you either don't have a trubish on your bench or you just played one and you know you need garbo to win you the game or at least make it easier on you what do you do? If you don't even have trubish on the bench than the choice is easy you must sycamore or you lose anyways, forcing yourself into top deck mode sux balls, and will typically lose you the game, that's why N is so strong but at least with N your at the point in the game were your deck is at least been thinned out and your already winning. If you wait a turn and opt not to play a supporter it's not as bad but you have inherently slowed yourself down and given your opponent a free turn. I say this happens nearly every game not exclusively to garbo but other choices you may have to make, another specifically to garbo is losing your float stones. I understand super rod is a thing but just because you can doesn't make it good, you have just added another dependency. Hex maniac has zero dependency and is completely up to the players skill to decide when its the right time to use it, this is possible because of VS seeker, how is that game dependent? it sounds more like what you think garbo is, its player dependent. The only scenario in which it could possibly be game dependent is against item lock, but if you don't have float stone on your garbo or trubbish already than how is that any different? At least you can still draw and use hex.

Decks that require "this and that" don't make them automatically harder to play, it make them less consistent and is the reason why single minded strategies excel, but don't confuse single minded with one trick pony, just because the decks focus is on one strategy doesn't mean that strategy can't be versatile, this is what we call meta cards. Just because someone makes an excellent meta call and decided to use Audino at worlds doesn't make it hard to play, its advantages are inherent to that of rogue decks, no one was prepared for it and it crushed the meta, but it's by no means difficult to operate or require "skill plays" every turn, it did one thing and one thing only, and it did it very effectively. I didn't see any garbos in the deck list did you? seemed to crush every greninja deck no problem. What required skill was the experience to make that meta call.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I was responding as a Scizor player; though I have a some experience with Mewtwo, I was referring to Garbodor's inclusion in Scizor.

Greninja can be one of Scizor's more annoying matchups because baby Greninja sits right outside OHKO range, but I tech Giovanni's Scheme so it's less of an issue.

Thats what I was thinking as well, since you want to KO them in one hit. How well does Giovanni's Scheme work with this deck?

 

[PMJ]

Thats what I was thinking as well, since you want to KO them in one hit. How well does Giovanni's Scheme work with this deck?

I like it. I don't like when stuff lives with just 10 or 20 HP from my attack. Giovanni tells Greninja, Zoroark BREAK, and Yanmega BREAK all to suck it. It also doubles as draw if you don't need the damage boost, and since I only run one, it's an easy discard if I don't need it.

 

[PMJ]

There's nothing you can do about Greninja BREAK, but Garbodor's presence makes it a non-issue.

 

[poke4trade]

@poke4trade Just because someone makes an excellent meta call and decided to use Audino at worlds doesn't make it hard to play, its advantages are inherent to that of rogue decks, no one was prepared for it and it crushed the meta, but it's by no means difficult to operate or require "skill plays" every turn, it did one thing and one thing only, and it did it very effectively.

I tend to disagree. Anybody that grinds worlds out is a good player. I met a lot of players when I was there in SF. I played with some. World competitors are very good players. A meta call is only half the battle. You need some skill to play at that level. It was a great deck and he used it differently based on match ups - some stuff wasn't recorded.

Garbador I believe makes more decks non issues, but I like it better then Hex. Garbador is a bit more consistent. Hex forces a draw support issue. Garbador is just an ironically skill play -- sometimes you need him and sometimes you don't, but calling it is the hard part.

 

[SpoonLarry]

I tend to disagree. Anybody that grinds worlds out is a good player. I met a lot of players when I was there in SF. I played with some. World competitors are very good players. A meta call is only half the battle. You need some skill to play at that level. It was a great deck and he used it differently based on match ups - some stuff wasn't recorded.

Garbador I believe makes more decks non issues, but I like it better then Hex. Garbador is a bit more consistent. Hex forces a draw support issue. Garbador is just an ironically skill play -- sometimes you need him and sometimes you don't, but calling it is the hard part.

I never said skill didn't matter I only tried to explain how it's not a requirement as you defined his deck and garbo as "skillful". I never once even so much as implied that he wasn't a good player. No deck or card has a prerequisite to be skilled, skill is simply a measure of how well you can play the game. Whether the deck is difficult to operate or not skill only makes it better, but it doesn't define any single card or deck, it just means it requires more effort to learn it.

Garbo really only makes one deck a non issue, anything else can be solved with hex maniac or lysandre, or many other possible solutions that your deck may or may not have, whether you inherently have a type advantage or resource advantage. If your up against a lot of greninja at your locals then its up to the player to make the call but in general garbos cost outweighs its usefulness, especially when you have other options available. A great example of a deck that doesn't need garbo to defeat greninja is audino, another one I can mention is M Scpetile...

We obviously have greatly different opinions, and I have no interest in changing yours, but as long as both views are out there, people who read these posts who are looking for answers may find them here.

 

[PMJ]

If Scizor could OHKO Giratina, I'd feel better about taking Garbodor out. I could just not evolve but I'm still gonna 2hko anyway. Might as well disrupt while I'm at it.

 

[21times]

Just wanted to add some data, not sure if I'm fueling the fire here or not. Just as a warning - my numbers do NOT include Shaymin, Hoopa, or Talonflame because Garbodor usually doesn't get out before they are played.

I have played 226 matches in standard rotation since Sept.1. Of those 226 matches, 175 of them (77%) had at least one pokemon with an ability.

In good performing decks, 82% (80 of 97 matches) of those decks had a pokemon with at least one ability.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Just wanted to add some data, not sure if I'm fueling the fire here or not. Just as a warning - my numbers do NOT include Shaymin, Hoopa, or Talonflame because Garbodor usually doesn't get out before they are played.

I have played 226 matches in standard rotation since Sept.1. Of those 226 matches, 175 of them (77%) had at least one pokemon with an ability.

In good performing decks, 82% (80 of 97 matches) of those decks had a pokemon with at least one ability.

Which ability? As of now, I'm willing to give Octillery a try over Shaymin EX again since I can get them going before Garbodor at times. Also of those decks, how many of them would you consider competitively viable? Also, did Unown factor into those as well?

 

[21times]

Unown was included in my analysis. The only Pokemon I excluded were Shaymin EX, Hoopa EX, and Talonflame.

So a little more clarification behind that 82%: I have identified 10 decks that have done consistently well against me since the beginning of the new rotation:

Darkrai EX (paired with Yveltal EX and / or Giratina), Volcanion, Mega Ray, Mewtwo Garbodor, M Gardevoir, M Scizor, Rainbow Road, Vespiquen Vileplume, Yanmega Break, and M Sceptile.

5 of these 10 decks are inherently built around a pokemon with abilities (Volcanion, Rainbow Road, Vespiquen Vileplume, Yanmega Break, and M Sceptile).

Darkrai (11 of 12 matches), Mega Ray (11 of 13), and Scizor (12 of 13) were almost always paired with at least 1 pokemon with an ability.

M Mewtwo (4 of 9) and Gardevoir (3 of 8) were paired with at least one pokemon with an ability a little less than half the time.

Again, this is ignoring Shaymin and Hoopa - I think most of these decks carried at least 1 of each.