The End Draws Nigh

Why is seismic toss better? Just curious... I picked it as a solution to Landorus, and Gliscor, which could be some serious problems, and yeah, I do, but I have other 'mons to help my Ninetails out! :) I have a recovery agent to help ninetails abuse the weather
 
Seismic Toss can actually break through the defenses of many a Mon, which also has a default damage of 100, meaning you are guaranteed damage regardless of what EVs you shuffle around on Blissey. Also, your Blissey set is weak to Substitute using Pokemon. Sure, Ice Beam can take a few mons, but that just means Pokemon Blissey can regularly handle (Politoed, Heatran, other special attackers that don't care about Ice Beam), can come in, and Blissey is used really as a wall to special attackers, one mentioned being Politoed. Also, the Pokemon you listed are mainly physical attackers, which can easily overcome Blissey's weak defenses. And sorry if it seems like I'm trying to make you switch out the team, it's just really there are better options lol
 
Equinox said:
Seismic Toss can actually break through the defenses of many a Mon, which also has a default damage of 100, meaning you are guaranteed damage regardless of what EVs you shuffle around on Blissey.
Click to expand...

Actually, Siesmic Toss has the HP Damage of 50 due to Flat Rules.

Sure, Ice Beam can take a few mons
Click to expand...

Garchomp
Salamence
Latios
Hydreigon
Thundurus-T
Thundurus
Landorus-T
Tornadus-T

A few you say?

---------------------------------------


First off, what are the Natures and Abilities on all of these? They are, after all, a vital part to a Pokemon.

Sableye
W/ White Herb
252 Def. / 252 SpD / 4 Sp.D
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Fake Out
Click to expand...

White Herb Sableye? Now I have yet to see this. Makes since, as Support Thunderbro carry Taunt a good portion of the time, and outspeed Sableye (leading to the loss of the priority war on Sableye's end).

Nothing wrong with Taunt on Sableye. In fact, it's probably one of the best moves to have on it. For Toxic, I might put Will-o-Wisp. In VGC, there isn't a whole lot of time nor opportunities to do Toxic stalling unless your team is built for it. Looking at what you have, a Priority Burn would do more good than Toxic. Trust me. Yes, WoW doesn't do as much over time, but Physical Attackers will hate you (excluding Guts users). Blissey and Latios in peticular enjoy seeing the opponent's Phys. Attackers crippled.
... Morning Sun? Do you mean Moonlight? They do the exact same thing, but Sableye doesn't learn Morning Sun. Besides, regardless of any of those moves, Recover would be a wiser option. Yes, I see that you have Ninetales, but that means you rely on Ninetales for Sableye. In the long run, this isn't too great; you'll either end up not using Tales in a battle and still need Sableye, or you lose a weather war of some sort, Tales is KO'd, and a different weather goes up for one reason or another. Overall, Recover less reliant on other things and is also more consistent in healing.
Fake Out is a typical Sableye specialty. If, however, you desire a bit more power / support, Sucker Punch, Payback, or Snarl can be used instead (it should be noted that Snarl is a decent option on a Pokemon already carrying WoW and Recover - now you can cripple Phys. and Spec. Attackers alike).

Zoroark
W/ Focus Sash
252 Sp.Att / 252 Spd. / 4HP
- Focus Blast
- Night Daze
- Protect
- Flamethrower
Click to expand...

There really isn't much else to be done here. Continuing on....

Terrakion
W/ Choice Scarf
252 Att. / 252 Sp.D / 4HP
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Quick Attack
- X - Scissor
Click to expand...

Is there a specific reason you have dumped that much SDef in Terra? I find this to be unnecessary, and a lot more Speed investment would go a long way to help out with your Scarf.How much Speed investment is currently up to you.

The only other tweek I might make here is Sacred Sword>Quick Attack, though I see your point with Quick Attack nonetheless. Having priority is great for finishing off weakened foes, but the Defensive drop of CC might not be needed in some cases where Sacred Sword would've KO'd as well.

Ninetails
W/ Life Orb
252 Spd. / 252 Sp.Att / 4 HP
- Sunny Day
- SolarBeam
- Fire Blast
- Will - O- Wisp
Click to expand...

First off.... Y U no Protect? Seriously, this thing needs it. Badly.

Also, WoW on what appears to be a heavily offensive set isn't too advised; you're outsped and OHKO'd be quite a few things that need to be burned (*looks at Garchomp* and a few others), and those things that you do outspeed, you can threaten pretty well w/o WoW (except maybe Tar in Sand). As a replacement plan, Protect would be wonderful.


Sunny Day on a Drought user? Umm.... Yeah, I'd replace that with HP Ice. If a Toed or Tar come in, Tales has to gtfo, meaning it mon't have time to set up Sunny Day. Tar and Toed happen to be the common weather starters (Abomasnow is used, just not as much). HP Ice would warrant unresisted coverage on almost everything (with just Fire Balst / HP Ice alone).

Life Orb isn't a bad choice (one in which you may opt to keep, though Latios might also appreciate it), but have you ever tried the Fire Gem? It would cook so many things....

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 252 HP/40 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 58.15% - 68.72%
2 hits to KO

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales Fire Blast vs 252 HP/40 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 51.98% - 61.23%
2 hits to KO

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 188 HP/124 SpDef Thundurus (+SpDef) : 98.31% - 116.29%
87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales Fire Blast vs 188 HP/124 SpDef Thundurus (+SpDef) : 89.33% - 105.06%
31.25% chance to OHKO

(all of those are in the Sun)



Looking at the current time (I'm on the US West coast, mind you), I need to get going. I should be back to rate and overly criticize every aspect of this team later.
 
Red Striker said:
Garchomp
Salamence
Latios
Hydreigon
Thundurus-T
Thundurus
Landorus-T
Tornadus-T

A few you say?
Click to expand...

Fair point, but still, what will you do when you're against a Pokemon like Politoed, etc. who Blissey would normally make flee, or any Substitute using Mon?
 
Red Striker said:
Equinox said:
Seismic Toss can actually break through the defenses of many a Mon, which also has a default damage of 100, meaning you are guaranteed damage regardless of what EVs you shuffle around on Blissey.
Click to expand...

Actually, Siesmic Toss has the HP Damage of 50 due to Flat Rules.

Sure, Ice Beam can take a few mons
Click to expand...

Garchomp
Salamence
Latios
Hydreigon
Thundurus-T
Thundurus
Landorus-T
Tornadus-T

A few you say?

---------------------------------------


First off, what are the Natures and Abilities on all of these? They are, after all, a vital part to a Pokemon.

Sableye
W/ White Herb
252 Def. / 252 SpD / 4 Sp.D
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Fake Out
Click to expand...

White Herb Sableye? Now I have yet to see this. Makes since, as Support Thunderbro carry Taunt a good portion of the time, and outspeed Sableye (leading to the loss of the priority war on Sableye's end).

Nothing wrong with Taunt on Sableye. In fact, it's probably one of the best moves to have on it. For Toxic, I might put Will-o-Wisp. In VGC, there isn't a whole lot of time nor opportunities to do Toxic stalling unless your team is built for it. Looking at what you have, a Priority Burn would do more good than Toxic. Trust me. Yes, WoW doesn't do as much over time, but Physical Attackers will hate you (excluding Guts users). Blissey and Latios in peticular enjoy seeing the opponent's Phys. Attackers crippled.
... Morning Sun? Do you mean Moonlight? They do the exact same thing, but Sableye doesn't learn Morning Sun. Besides, regardless of any of those moves, Recover would be a wiser option. Yes, I see that you have Ninetales, but that means you rely on Ninetales for Sableye. In the long run, this isn't too great; you'll either end up not using Tales in a battle and still need Sableye, or you lose a weather war of some sort, Tales is KO'd, and a different weather goes up for one reason or another. Overall, Recover less reliant on other things and is also more consistent in healing.
Fake Out is a typical Sableye specialty. If, however, you desire a bit more power / support, Sucker Punch, Payback, or Snarl can be used instead (it should be noted that Snarl is a decent option on a Pokemon already carrying WoW and Recover - now you can cripple Phys. and Spec. Attackers alike).

Zoroark
W/ Focus Sash
252 Sp.Att / 252 Spd. / 4HP
- Focus Blast
- Night Daze
- Protect
- Flamethrower
Click to expand...

There really isn't much else to be done here. Continuing on....

Terrakion
W/ Choice Scarf
252 Att. / 252 Sp.D / 4HP
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Quick Attack
- X - Scissor
Click to expand...

Is there a specific reason you have dumped that much SDef in Terra? I find this to be unnecessary, and a lot more Speed investment would go a long way to help out with your Scarf.How much Speed investment is currently up to you.

The only other tweek I might make here is Sacred Sword>Quick Attack, though I see your point with Quick Attack nonetheless. Having priority is great for finishing off weakened foes, but the Defensive drop of CC might not be needed in some cases where Sacred Sword would've KO'd as well.

Ninetails
W/ Life Orb
252 Spd. / 252 Sp.Att / 4 HP
- Sunny Day
- SolarBeam
- Fire Blast
- Will - O- Wisp
Click to expand...

First off.... Y U no Protect? Seriously, this thing needs it. Badly.

Also, WoW on what appears to be a heavily offensive set isn't too advised; you're outsped and OHKO'd be quite a few things that need to be burned (*looks at Garchomp* and a few others), and those things that you do outspeed, you can threaten pretty well w/o WoW (except maybe Tar in Sand). As a replacement plan, Protect would be wonderful.


Sunny Day on a Drought user? Umm.... Yeah, I'd replace that with HP Ice. If a Toed or Tar come in, Tales has to gtfo, meaning it mon't have time to set up Sunny Day. Tar and Toed happen to be the common weather starters (Abomasnow is used, just not as much). HP Ice would warrant unresisted coverage on almost everything (with just Fire Balst / HP Ice alone).

Life Orb isn't a bad choice (one in which you may opt to keep, though Latios might also appreciate it), but have you ever tried the Fire Gem? It would cook so many things....

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 252 HP/40 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 58.15% - 68.72%
2 hits to KO

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales Fire Blast vs 252 HP/40 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 51.98% - 61.23%
2 hits to KO

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 188 HP/124 SpDef Thundurus (+SpDef) : 98.31% - 116.29%
87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpAtk Fire Gem Ninetales Fire Blast vs 188 HP/124 SpDef Thundurus (+SpDef) : 89.33% - 105.06%
31.25% chance to OHKO

(all of those are in the Sun)



Looking at the current time (I'm on the US West coast, mind you), I need to get going. I should be back to rate and overly criticize every aspect of this team later.
Click to expand...

Ok, first off: I really appreciate you took the time to analyze each member in specific, and point out flaws, it's much appreciated. :)

Regarding Blissey:
Unless I'm running I-beam on Latios, I really don't have a good coverage against alot of OU characters. Seismic Toss just seems unnecessary for me, thank you Equinox for the suggestion, but I'm sticking with I-beam.

I'm thinking Natural Cure on Blissey. It's great to throw in against priority moves that inflict status against me. I've also thought of Healer, but not really gonna do it. :) nature was going to be +Def, -Spe.

As for Sableye, I really think the advice on WoW is a good one and logically supported. My team could use more burning the opponent, so I'll switch out Toxic for WoW.Yeah, I was trying to be creative with, err, moonlight, for my team, taking advantage of Ninetails, but I guess it isn't really necessary! :) I'll consider changing that as well. Love White herb. I want the final say in taunt. Fake out is awesome. I'll consider the Snarl option as that's pretty cool, but I'll have to see what I want to replace it with.

As for Terrakion, whoopsies, typo in the EV area. Meant maxed Spe. Sorry about that! :) I've tried running Sacred Sword, but just doesn't seem to KO most of the people that CC can. I have wish Blissey for support on Terrakion just in case, but I get where your going. I like Quick Attack. Most people won't see it coming on a Scarf Terrakion! ^^

As for Ninetails, I want to run the (+Sp.Att, - Att.) nature. Adamant, I think? Anyway... Sunny Day is really an awesome strategy, and essential for my ninetails set. Gives me weather advantage if I predict TTar coming in correctly, full use of SolarBeam against pesky water and rock types, fireblast has increased accuracy, power boost, and more. What more could I ask for? I could replace WoW with Protect or HP Ice. If my ninetails is slower than those common starters, my weather will get final say in the start. Water also has weakened power in the sun. I haven't seen a single politoed/TTar set run a secondary weather move, so I'm sure it'll force a retreat, allowing me a free F-Blast to someoneZ :) I think I'm going to replace Life Orb for Fire Gem. That was a really good suggestion! Thanks for the tables showing damage, that helps give me a better picture!

As for Zoroark, no change needed. He's boss. I'm running the (+Sp.Att, -Att) nature on him.
 
+SAtt / - Att is Modest fyi (regarding your notes on Tales)


Oh, and as a small tidbit of advice (my time is rather limited today; sorry I can't complete the analysis atm): Ninetales is the fastest weather-starter out there. Let's see here....

Base Speeds:

Tales: 100
Tar: 61
Toed: 60
Aboma: 60
Hippo: 47

The only possible way for Tales to have a lower Speed than them in via Iron Ball, which I wouldn't recommend in this case. Either way, yes, you can set up Sunny Day again, but Tales will die to either Rock Slide / Stone Edge or Scald / Hydro Pump. After they KO Tales, they can swap out their weather starter and send it back in
 
So then is it really worth investing the speed trait? What is the minimum # of EV's needed to invest in a + Spe trait, to outrun the best Tar? I guess I can invest the rest of what's left in speed into Def and Sp.Att. :) maybe I'll do modest or timid, but modest seems like a better choice!

Thanks for the update, but I still feel the urge to run Sunny Day on Ninetails. Even if I do lose weather advantage, I don't HAVE to lead with tails... I could use him as a switch in, predicting a bug or fire move... (If possible) hardly anyone uses volcanona though... Does ice hit fire for Neutral? I think it does... Anyway, thanks for the food for thought! I'll sleep on your suggestion! :)
 
Hydro Cannon said:
Does ice hit fire for Neutral? I think it does... Anyway, thanks for the food for thought! I'll sleep on your suggestion! :)
Click to expand...

Fire resists Ice.
 
I think it would be funny to lead a ninetails disguised as Zoroark... The flamethrower wouldn't seem unnatural, and the opponent would think twice about physically attacking... Until the Night Daze comes out... Should I run a priority attack move on Zoroark, like Sucker Punch, or something like pursuit? I want to catch Latios or another psychic type completely off guard.., but I'd have to sacrifice a power move... Probably not worth it.

Yes red striker, I probably would be... Still thinking I could use ninetails, where the deciding move would be to either allow me the full lead with ninetails, and my opponent doesn't start with it, or I move ninetails in, canceling weather, and forcing switch out?
 
I pointed this out in a PM a while back, but I figure I can't hurt to put it here too. If this team is for an emulator, there's not really a problem, but if you're planning on building this team on a retail cartridge, WishBliss is not going to happen. Sure there was this one obscure event for gen 3 games where a couple hundred wish chanseys were handed out, but it wasn't really that great until they redid wish's mechanics in gen 5. For this reason, most wish chansey were discarded as a cheap novelty item with no real use in battle. Of the few that did survive into this century, many died with their cartridges as they were restarted or lost entirely. The only wish chanseys/blisseys in circulation now are guarantee-able hacks and can get you dis qualified from VGC. You won't be able to pass 350+ HP wishes anymore, but I recommend you find a good Softboiled or Seismic Toss variant, of which the latter can be fairly easily RNGed from an egg on a dry-battery Ruby or Sapphire cartridge and tutored ST in gen 3. If you can forgo Leftovers, Eviolite Chansey is worth considering as well. Ice Beam is a nice touch though. Most of the sets I see carry Flamethrower to deal with steel types, so in that regard, most savvy opponents will hesitate to switch one in and set up. I wish I could be of more assistance, but up until now I've primarily built monotype and no-legend OU teams (which are no help in VGC).

Edit: I forgot to mention RNG abuse was practically unheard of when the event was released. Even now there's no way to RNG pokemon like WISHMKR Jirachi that are only available from a 3rd gen distribution (except through an emulator and even that isn't easy).
 
Natures would be nice, but its fine for now. BTW, I noticed that your Blissey and Sableye didn't have 252 HP. Let me tell you, HP helps alot, man. Instead of 252 defense on Sableye and Blissey, maybe you could put 252 HP instead or maybe split the two somehow. Also, your Blissey with a neutral nature (Sorry, don't know if she's + Defense) can only reach 62 defense, MAXIMUM. That means that it can't take a physical hit without some HP invested. This also means that it can take Special hits like a CHAMP. HP is just good because it supports both defenses a little bit. For Sableye, maybe do 252 HP, 4 Defense, 252 Sp.D. For Blissey, do the same thing. These are just suggestions though, you don't have to.

iSharingan said:
I pointed this out in a PM a while back, but I figure I can't hurt to put it here too. If this team is for an emulator, there's not really a problem, but if you're planning on building this team on a retail cartridge, WishBliss is not going to happen. Sure there was this one obscure event for gen 3 games where a couple hundred wish chanseys were handed out, but it wasn't really that great until they redid wish's mechanics in gen 5. For this reason, most wish chansey were discarded as a cheap novelty item with no real use in battle. Of the few that did survive into this century, many died with their cartridges as they were restarted or lost entirely. The only wish chanseys/blisseys in circulation now are guarantee-able hacks and can get you dis qualified from VGC. You won't be able to pass 350+ HP wishes anymore, but I recommend you find a good Softboiled or Seismic Toss variant, of which the latter can be fairly easily RNGed from an egg on a dry-battery Ruby or Sapphire cartridge and tutored ST in gen 3. If you can forgo Leftovers, Eviolite Chansey is worth considering as well. Ice Beam is a nice touch though. Most of the sets I see carry Flamethrower to deal with steel types, so in that regard, most savvy opponents will hesitate to switch one in and set up. I wish I could be of more assistance, but up until now I've primarily built monotype and no-legend OU teams (which are no help in VGC).
Click to expand...

True. Wish is so much harder to pull off in a metagame where switching is 10x more dangerous, Especially when facing 2 pokemon at once.
 
Simple fix: Change the White Herb to a Mental Herb on Sableye. White Herb resets stat-reductions, while a Mental Herb will negate a single use of taunt.
 
That's what I meant, thanks cobalt! :3

An to everyone else, I'm changing Blissey again. Probably to eviolite Chansey. I'll see. Any suggestions for replacements? I'm thinking of a sun team now
 
On your Terrakion, don't you think you should replace Stone Edge with Rock Slide. It hits both pokemon and has a decent chance to flinch.
 
On a Choice Scarf Terrakion, Rock Slide is much more valuable than Quick Attack. As strong as Terrakion is, Quick Attack is still really weak, and its kinda redundant when you're so fast. The extra accuracy is really nice at points, and having a little bit of flinch hax can't hurt you. Since this is for VGC, you'll really enjoy it since it hits both opponents.
 
Hydro Cannon said:
True that, but the power is lowered. I think I'll change my set up, quick attack doesn't work as well
Click to expand...

The 25 lower damage is worth 10% more accuracy, hitting both opponents, and a chance to flinch IMO. You could keep Stone Edge for those pokemon that just won't get OHKO'd by Rock Slide, but you should replace Quick attack for Rock Slide since you're already fast and Quick Attack does abysmal damage.
 
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