The Antithesis

Equinox

Stallwart Player
Member
Introduction

Hello all! This is my first dedicated team in awhile, and I'm proud of what I got. Thanks to iSharingan, I've managed to create a team that plays really well and can be very threatening despite the lack of immediate power. I would like to say my play style has changed and this team reflects that, heck who says stall is totally dead?​

The Team​
485.gif
036.gif
356.gif
003.gif
197.gif
195.gif

Up Close


485.gif

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Protect


The first Pokemon on my team, Heatran is an amazingly bulky Pokemon, and reliably sets up Stealth Rock. Toxic lets Heatran cripple bulky waters that come in or any other wall (outside Blissey). Lava Plume so Heatran isn't total Taunt bait also why would you not use Lava Plume? Lava Plume lets Heatran also spread burns around. Protect is the last move, and it allows Heatran to scout out potential threats.

036.gif

Clefable @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Soft-Boiled
- Cosmic Power
- Charge Beam
- Stored Power


I once again went with Professor Palutena's recommendation, but as for Quagsire I found Clefable underwhelming, so I decided to tweak it. I found this moveset to be pretty fun because it can also stall things out while also setting up. Cosmic Power pretty much lets me set up beside any Pokemon that doesn't have STAB SE moves, while Charge Beam gives Clefable an offensive presence, and is the only way it can take on Dark-types. Soft-Boiled allows for recovery and Stored Power because once Clefable gets set up, everything besides Dark-types and Chansey are OHKO'd.

356.gif

Dusclops (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Rest
- Infestation
- Seismic Toss

An original of mine, I'd like to call it a bear trap. It traps walls, Defoggers, Spinners, set up sweepers, revenge killers, screen setters, anything it wants to really, and simply stalls it out until it dies. WoW is preferred over Toxic as WoW allows Dusclops to handle physical sweepers easier, but Toxic can be used to kill anything with recovery easier. Rest is Dusclops' only way of recovery and helps when outstalling other walls. Infestation is the basic idea behind the set, trapping foes for 4-5 turns and inflicting extra damage, which thanks to the addition of WoW deals an extra 25% or so damage. Seismic Toss is definitely a must, as it allows Dusclops to break through subs, plus guarantees I don't have to worry about power drops. The EVs and Nature are there for maximum bulk across all boards, max HP being a MUST considering Dusclops' low HP. With the addition of Eviolite Dusclops becomes a fearsome mixed wall, with 538 def and 489 Sp. Def.

003.gif

Venusaur (F) @ Venusaurite
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis

Ahh yes, a behemoth in his own right, I would truly like to thank iSharingan for this set. While not having access to immediate power, it's very very very very easy to come in and start setting up, and it's even very highly possible to set up against other physical boosters. Leech Seed helps punish those Pokemon who wish to stay in on Venusaur and set up with it, and it helps with recovery too. Knock Off is the only attack move, but that's fine when you're guaranteed a 120 bp move nearly every time you use it.

197.gif

Umbreon (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Protect
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Foul Play

The cleric of the team, Umbreon helps with the overall survival of the team, passing off Wishes to those who lack the recovery. Protect allows Umbreon to scout things out more easily, whether to see if the opponent plans to trick Choice items, or what the opponent plans to do next. Foul Play keeps Umbreon from being total taunt bait, and it also sees its fair share of use, especially on powerful physical Pokemon who think they can immediately set up.

195.gif

Quagsire (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Stockpile


Stockpile Quagsire is a bit of an oddity I remember seeing back in Gen 5, and I remember how successful it was. Suggest as a replacement for Suicune, originally the set had Toxic, but I had found Quagsire to be underwhelming, so I had dug the Stockpile set back up. Stockpile allows Quagsire to become a powerful mixed wall, being able to take on Calm Mind / Nasty Plot users as well. Scald lets me spread status, and also helps to make things die faster. EQ for general attacking, it helps break the subs bulkier Pokemon (Kyurem-B) like to set up.


Threats
Bisharp - oh my god I hate this thing. If Heatran is dead I have to play around it - even if it's burned it still does a lot of damage.
Landorus-I - This thing is seriously annoying, the Sheer Force sets are ridiculous. I have special walls, but Lando-I doesn't give a shit, it still does massive amounts of damage.
Mega Pinsir - FUUUUU depending on what it runs.
Gengar - Neutral Shadow Ball damage is annoying, but Gengar can be brought down.

Edits in Bold
 
Given that you're running stall, I'm very surprised not to see any entry hazards on your team. Any reason why you aren't?

I'm also very curious about how you handle Mega Charizard X. It looks like it can have a lot of opportunities to set up on your team. Mega Gardevoir also looks very threatening to this team and I'm interested to hear how you handle her.
 
Professor Palutena said:
Given that you're running stall, I'm very surprised not to see any entry hazards on your team. Any reason why you aren't?
I had a hazard setter on an earlier version (Skarmory), but I found a few holes that I couldn't otherwise patch up without taking it out (I ended up replacing it with Suicune)
I'm also very curious about how you handle Mega Charizard X. It looks like it can have a lot of opportunities to set up on your team. Mega Gardevoir also looks very threatening to this team and I'm interested to hear how you handle her.

I have to play around with Mega Charizard X, but it usually ends up paralyzed by Togekiss and dealt with. Mega Gardevoir is the same, but Venusaur can tolerate it if Gardevoir is using Psyshock, otherwise Gardevoir can be a problem. I forgot to add both of these mons to the list, thanks for bringing them up. I've also decided to replace Calm Mind on Suicune with Roar.
 
Still, a stall team always needs hazards. You could replace Sub in Heatran for SR.
Also:
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Considering that Leftovers is removed, I used a random item for the calcs. Pretty much, if Heatran switches on Bisharp's Knock Off, then it loses its Lefties and it becomes crippled if it takes another hit fro either another Knock Off or Sucker Punch. Heatran can counter Bisharp, yes, but it's not gonna be able to do much afterwards. Watch out for it.
 
Chaos Jackal said:
Still, a stall team always needs hazards. You could replace Sub in Heatran for SR.
TormentTran shouldn't run SR, Substitute isn't really something to replace.

Also:
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Considering that Leftovers is removed, I used a random item for the calcs. Pretty much, if Heatran switches on Bisharp's Knock Off, then it loses its Lefties and it becomes crippled if it takes another hit fro either another Knock Off or Sucker Punch. Heatran can counter Bisharp, yes, but it's not gonna be able to do much afterwards. Watch out for it.
After a Knock Off Bisharp is forced into a corner; go for Sucker Punch to try and to hit me or go for Knock Off again, which I usually sub first and Protect after, and it's easy to predict the Sucker Punch because after the first one I go for Torment, and Heatran is faster than Bisharp, which either forces the foe to switch out or get KO'd by Lava Plume.
 
Equinox said:
TormentTran shouldn't run SR, Substitute isn't really something to replace.
I really don't see what TormetTran is doing to this team that a Specially Defensive set can do. I would run that set instead.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Spe / 260 SpD
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

I would suggest using a supporting Chansey or Clefable instead of Umbreon. You keep the cleric role and gain the ability to have Stealth Rock. I suggest this Clefable set.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

This keeps your Cleric and Wish+Protect roles in tact while also doubling as a counter to a variety of set up sweepers.

I would also like to suggest Quagsire over Suicune. While it may seem redundant at first glance, Double Unaware is a fantastic way to shut down Quickpass and all sorta of Offensive teams. I wouldn't consider CroCune enough of a win condition to power through setup sweepers either.

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic

This set can also be a counter to Bisharp (Knock Off 3HKOs) and Mega Charizard X (3HKOs with Dragon Claw).
 
Professor Palutena said:
Equinox said:
TormentTran shouldn't run SR, Substitute isn't really something to replace.
I really don't see what TormetTran is doing to this team that a Specially Defensive set can do. I would run that set instead.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Spe / 260 SpD
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

I would suggest using a supporting Chansey or Clefable instead of Umbreon. You keep the cleric role and gain the ability to have Stealth Rock. I suggest this Clefable set.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

This keeps your Cleric and Wish+Protect roles in tact while also doubling as a counter to a variety of set up sweepers.

I would also like to suggest Quagsire over Suicune. While it may seem redundant at first glance, Double Unaware is a fantastic way to shut down Quickpass and all sorta of Offensive teams. I wouldn't consider CroCune enough of a win condition to power through setup sweepers either.

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic

This set can also be a counter to Bisharp (Knock Off 3HKOs) and Mega Charizard X (3HKOs with Dragon Claw).

So far I've been liking your suggestions, although I'm not a fan of Clefable so far because of the underwhelming defense, semi likewise with Quagsire, most of the other notable physically offensive behemoths (Excadrill and Garchomp) still take a chunk out of them.
 
Hey there. I agree COMPLETELY with the suggestion to switch to the defensive SR Heatran set. Heatran can ALWAYS reliably get rocks up at least once, usually more than once, and even the most offensive of sets are typically sturdy enough to last well into the late-game.

Where Prof. Paulena suggests Clefable, however, I would suggest Chansey instead. Whether you want a WishPasser or a Cleric is up to you; although since 5 of your 6 pokemon have ways to reliably recover themselves, I think the Cleric set might be more effective in this case.

Chansey @Eviolite
Trait; Natural Cure
4 HP/252 Def/252 SpDef
Bold (I think?) nature
~Softboiled
~Seismic Toss
~Toxic/Thunder Wave
~Heal Bell/Aromatherapy (whichever one of those moves it gets)

If you want to use the WishPassing set however (same EVs but with Wish and Protect instead of Softboiled and Heal Bell) you can drop Fire Blast on Togekiss for Heal Bell if you feel the need to keep the cleric, so Chansey will give you a couple of options for your team. Chansey also shares similar weaknesses to Umbreon, so your team should already be well-prepared to handle things it is weak to.

Lastly, this is my personal bias coming out, but there is no reason for dusclops on a team. ever. If you need a spinblocker, Jellicent, Dusknoir, and Gengar (yes, even the extremely frail Gengar) completely outclass it. If you want something that can trap pokemon like you do with Infestation, anything that gets Mean Look/Perish Song will do this job much better. To be honest though, I don't think it's that viable of a strategy to begin with. If you get Dusclops in against a pokemon that it completely shuts down (which isn't that much to be honest...) they are just going to switch right out to something that threatens you. Furthermore, you list in your strategy that Dusclops can trap things like Rapid Spinners and Defoggers... I don't see why that's necessary when your team doesn't have any entry hazards on it in the present?

I would suggest dropping dusclops for something like Tyranitar or Scizor, that can actually trap and reliably KO defoggers like Latios. Tyranitar comes with the bonus of immediately threatening Mandibuzz. (This is all assuming you put SR on Heatran.) Tyranitar can also reliably set up Stealth Rock if you have your mind set on keeping TormentTran on this team.

Lastly, something I would consider would be switching Suicune to a Specially Defensive Gyarados. It does everything suicune does, but it would help significantly against Landorus-I since it is immune to Earth Power. Intimidate will also help a little bit against Pinsir. However, it's weak to Stealth Rock, so your team might require additional putzing around with to try and get a Spinner/Defogger in here to support Gyarados. If you switch, Gyarados should run:

Gyarados@Leftovers
248 HP/252 SpDef/8 Spe
Trait: Intimidate
~Waterfall
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
~Dragon Tail/Roar/Thunder Wave
 
One Approved said:
Hey there. I agree COMPLETELY with the suggestion to switch to the defensive SR Heatran set. Heatran can ALWAYS reliably get rocks up at least once, usually more than once, and even the most offensive of sets are typically sturdy enough to last well into the late-game.
Yep, I did that! I forgot to change the set, sorry.

Where Prof. Paulena suggests Clefable, however, I would suggest Chansey instead. Whether you want a WishPasser or a Cleric is up to you; although since 5 of your 6 pokemon have ways to reliably recover themselves, I think the Cleric set might be more effective in this case.

Chansey @Eviolite
Trait; Natural Cure
4 HP/252 Def/252 SpDef
Bold (I think?) nature
~Softboiled
~Seismic Toss
~Toxic/Thunder Wave
~Heal Bell/Aromatherapy (whichever one of those moves it gets)

If you want to use the WishPassing set however (same EVs but with Wish and Protect instead of Softboiled and Heal Bell) you can drop Fire Blast on Togekiss for Heal Bell if you feel the need to keep the cleric, so Chansey will give you a couple of options for your team. Chansey also shares similar weaknesses to Umbreon, so your team should already be well-prepared to handle things it is weak to.
I'm running Clefable so far, but I changed sets to the Cosmic Power/Charge Beam booster, and it's working fine, and I also kept Umbreon, and took out Togekiss.

Lastly, this is my personal bias coming out, but there is no reason for dusclops on a team. ever. If you need a spinblocker, Jellicent, Dusknoir, and Gengar (yes, even the extremely frail Gengar) completely outclass it. If you want something that can trap pokemon like you do with Infestation, anything that gets Mean Look/Perish Song will do this job much better. To be honest though, I don't think it's that viable of a strategy to begin with. If you get Dusclops in against a pokemon that it completely shuts down (which isn't that much to be honest...) they are just going to switch right out to something that threatens you. Furthermore, you list in your strategy that Dusclops can trap things like Rapid Spinners and Defoggers... I don't see why that's necessary when your team doesn't have any entry hazards on it in the present?

I would suggest dropping dusclops for something like Tyranitar or Scizor, that can actually trap and reliably KO defoggers like Latios. Tyranitar comes with the bonus of immediately threatening Mandibuzz. (This is all assuming you put SR on Heatran.) Tyranitar can also reliably set up Stealth Rock if you have your mind set on keeping TormentTran on this team.
Poor poor bias, no open mind eh? Lel you wanna know the only thing that can shut Dusclops down? Taunt or any powerful STAB move (of which, Keldeo, Gengar, and Bisharp are the only very real problems, Keldeo of which can only 3HKO with Hydro Pump). Also, Dusclops works well as mixed wall, and it also shuts down a lot of physical threats with ease and allows me to easily PP stall walls. I also listed the ability to trap spinners and defoggers just to mention some of what it can do, and what's really gonna threaten Dusclops outside of the above mentions? I've had no problem, as even if I'm going up against Conkeldurr (Payback or Knock Off) I can just switch out to Clefable. Although I have been experimenting a little with Latias.

Lastly, something I would consider would be switching Suicune to a Specially Defensive Gyarados. It does everything suicune does, but it would help significantly against Landorus-I since it is immune to Earth Power. Intimidate will also help a little bit against Pinsir. However, it's weak to Stealth Rock, so your team might require additional putzing around with to try and get a Spinner/Defogger in here to support Gyarados. If you switch, Gyarados should run:

Gyarados@Leftovers
248 HP/252 SpDef/8 Spe
Trait: Intimidate
~Waterfall
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
~Dragon Tail/Roar/Thunder Wave
I replaced Suicune with Quagsire and the above set was alright, but immediate physical powerhouses outright threatened Quagsire, so I "tweaked" the moveset, got rid of Toxic, and gave it Stockpile and it seems to be working really well, the only things that worry it being grass and status moves. I also found that I have a Kyurem-B weakness (Earth Power/Ice Beam/Fusion Bolt runs through everything).
 
Poor poor bias, no open mind eh? Lel you wanna know the only thing that can shut Dusclops down? Taunt or any powerful STAB move

I mean... that's the point I'm trying to make. Taunt is on quite a few pokemon in OU, any Dark-type can shut you down, and there's certainly a lot more things than Keldeo that have powerful STAB attacks. Landorus, mega Charizards, and Heatran to name a few. And yes, your team has checks and counters to these pokemon, but Dusclops is supposed to be walling these things while instead it's getting forced out. You lose momentum which is exactly what offensive teams want.

Also, anything with a status move beats you. Yes, I understand that you have a cleric. But the fact that you've just been Toxic'd forces you to switch to your cleric, which again means your "wall" is being forced out and not actually walling like it's supposed to do.

Also, Dusclops works well as mixed wall, and it also shuts down a lot of physical threats with ease and allows me to easily PP stall walls.

There's several other pokemon that shut down physical threats just as easily, such as Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Skarmory, and I really don't think Dusclops walls special attackers very well, as I pointed out earlier.

I also listed the ability to trap spinners and defoggers just to mention some of what it can do
I guess this is more relevant if you switched to the SR Heatran set, but I'd rather apply enough pressure to keep them from spinning or defogging entirely rather than guaranteeing that you'll let them remove hazards once before they die. You're essentially letting them choose when they want to remove hazards, and giving your opponent the choice is never what you want. This is all also assuming that the spinner/defogger doesn't have a way of switching out or forcing you out. (ie U-turn Mew/Talonflame, Whirlwind Latias).

Although I have been experimenting a little with Latias.

From a completely unbiased standpoint, I would still highly recommend this, actually, because I think your team as it stands is pretty weak to Landorus-i. They often carry Focus blast which will get by Umbreon, and they can also carry Sludge Wave which beats Clefable. And to be honest, if it's the Calm Mind Landorus you're up against, it's going to overpower your Clefable regardless. Latias is immune to Earth Power, and has great Special Defense, so it will reliably be able to tank anything Landorus can throw at it, and Latias also outspeeds it. I think it would help your team considerably.
 
One Approved said:
Although I have been experimenting a little with Latias.

From a completely unbiased standpoint, I would still highly recommend this, actually, because I think your team as it stands is pretty weak to Landorus-i. They often carry Focus blast which will get by Umbreon, and they can also carry Sludge Wave which beats Clefable. And to be honest, if it's the Calm Mind Landorus you're up against, it's going to overpower your Clefable regardless. Latias is immune to Earth Power, and has great Special Defense, so it will reliably be able to tank anything Landorus can throw at it, and Latias also outspeeds it. I think it would help your team considerably.
Latias isn't bad, if I use her she challenges both Lando's but at the same time I have a bit harder problem with Pinsir and Medicham.
DdogTheKing said:
Change the nature to bold on Clefable.
The current nature gives it as much bulk as possible on both sides of the physical/special spectrum.
 
So as of now my team has peaked at 1655 on PS, and pretty much the only reason I lose is either hax or misplay.

Also bump.
 
Back
Top