Team Doppler Effect

Kevin Garrett said:
Raikou is the only true counter to this team. That's auto-gg if I don't have Snorlax. Suicune can stop it, but only if I'm set up first, which in theorymon, you don't expect. MoP Heracross can also be a small problem, which I overlooked in the threat list. However, depending upon the circumstances, its effectiveness can vary.

scampy said:
I'm still not convinced by sleep-talk on Zapdos. Can't Heatran take that Hypnosis from Gengar?Toxic is a good filler; it's a big problem for CM Bliss, and helps with this teams stalling nature.
Hmm, that's definitely worth trying.

it is definitely worth trying, but having sleep talk on zapdos is very handy for absorbing sleep. plus zapdos overall deals better with gengar as it doesn't fear focus blast/punch, and won't take too much from hp ice and can heal with a sleep talk'd roost or deal damage :] you never have to worry about getting a freakin rest with sleep talk :]

and nice team btw kay gee. teh doppler effect is win
 
I played this team on 3 different occasions so I'm going to give you a rate that's full of nitpicks all over the place Enjoy!

Kevin Garrett said:
DopplerEffect

Overview:
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In Depth:
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@ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 222 Def / 36 Spe
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
- Leech Seed
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Recover

I don't like Celebi as your lead at all. With Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor becoming increasingly popular leads as of late I don't feel comfortable with it. Especially that Anti-Lead T-Tar which kinda hurts this team a lot as it is. Lead with Zapdos instead. Granted Zapdos fails against T-Tar and Weavile much like Celebi but at least you can switch out without facing instant death from Pursuit.

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@ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

It's fine. CM Talk Cune (Crocune as some people know it I suppose) is pretty nifty.

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@ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Roost

I never understood how Gliscor was a Heracross counter. He's really only a counter to the Choice Band or Scarf sets. If Heracross pulls of an SD or if it's that amazing Facade Flame Orb Cross,. Gliscor can be 2HKOd (and likely be OHKOd with an SD Guts boosted Facade (53% chance you are OHKOd)) and you can't do anything to it. After that, it proceeds to just destroy your whole team. For this reason you need Aerial Ace > Ice Fang. You'll still lose to Flame Orb set but at least you attacking it and burn will kill that before it takes out all 6 Pokemon, it will just take out 5 maybe. You'll struggle more against Garchomp but I would prefer you to play around one common threat than instantly lose to one.

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@ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 166 Atk / 252 SpA / 92 Spe
Nature: Naïve (+Spe, -SpD)
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Superpower
- Shadow Ball

I don't like Life Orb on D-E, particularly on this team. D-E is incredibly predictable and if he is designed to clean up, as he is your only real offensive force, you don't want him being stalled out. So, let's change Life Orb to Expert Belt. It maintains all of the important OHKOs and this will still allow you to 2HKO the most common Blissey outside of, Calm, 0 HP / 252 Def, which is Bold, 24 HP / 252 Def. I see no downside in using Expert Belt. Also, I'm not sure why you are running Shadow Ball. You are never going to speed tie with other D-E and it's really only useful for Gengar or Azelf. Consider this though you already outrun Gengar and Psychic OHKOs and if it's Scarfed you'll get hit with a Shadow Ball first anyway. In the case of Azelf, Heatran beats that already anyway. So, I don't see what Shadow Ball is for. The 20% special defense drop is nice but sometimes D-E just needs a STAB move and when that is the only reason backing it up I don't see it's purpose. Also, Psychic still has a 10% chance to cause a special defense drop. So replace Shadow Ball with Psychic. I personally like to run a bulkier EV spread (what bulky D-E?) but yours is fine for your teams purposes.

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Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 48 SpA / 208 SpD
Nature: Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Seems fine. I've seen a similar spread used before (I don't recall by who to be honest) but I remember it being 252 HP / 56 SpA / 200 SpD. It was apparently designed so that Lava Plume would OHKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory. It may not seem important since you'll 2HKO but I don't see what those 8 special defense EVs do for Heatran so I figure, why not? Unless there is something specific you live but I can't imagine what.

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@ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Roost
- Sleep Talk

You have a lot of defensive guys, that said, these guys can't take on something with a lot of boosts. That's why I recommend Roar > Sleep Talk. You already have 2 sleep absorber to activate Sleep Clause, do you really need Sleep Talk on Zapdos as well? Roar would seriously help with your teams vulnerability to something like CM Cresselia.

I deleted your threat list since it was messy for me to type in responses next to them, so I'll just respond a bit right now.

Tyranitar: Celebi is your Tyranitar counter? It hardily handles Tyranitar with ease. Tyraniboah murders Celebi (it does 53% - 62% with Dark Pulse). Tyranitar has Sandstream so he isn't going to fall to your Grass Knot's any time soon. DD-Tar with Ice Beam basically says "good game" unless it happens to miss Gliscor due to S-Veil hax. Tyraniboah is this teams #1 problem, no question there. Really your only good with the CB set and the DD set if it lacks Ice Beam. Suicune fares okay but it doesn't like take repeated Thunderbolts.

Azelf: I run HP Ground Azelf :D

Heracross: I never understood why Gliscor is a Heracross "counter". I guess if it's Scarfed or Banded it is. But the SD set can 2HKO Gliscor and the Flame Orb Facade Cross just murders Gliscor. Non-choiced Heracross is another huge problem for this team.

Alakazam: Heatran takes a hell of a lot from a Specs Focus Blast.

Ninjask: I don't think the point is to counter it, I think the point it to stop it from passing +6 attack, +6 speed to something like Metagross. Roar > Sleep Talk on Zapdos seems to help a lot.

Jirachi: Usually CM Jirachi has Substitute up and carries Thunderbolt so you're going to lose that CM War.

Anyway, those were my nitpicks of your threat list.

Threats to This team:

The biggest problem I see is that you very well could get outstalled yourself. I played you with this team with one of my stall teams and it was an incredibly long match. We both just sat there and as our defensive Pokemon couldn't really do anything to one another. The difference is, while you were just sitting there I was setting up Toxic Spikes , Spikes, and Stealth Rock and even though you have 2 Rest-Talkers I stalled them out of Rest/Sleep Talk PP with Vaporeon and Celebi working together. After a long time of switching your team was just worn down and I came out on top. I know offensive teams are in style now but never under estimate a well built stall team. This is more of a stall-ish (or bulky offensive) team. I'd love to see you fit some kinda a spinner in here. Tentacruel might work over Zapdos here and as you already mentioned it brings somewhat of a Gengar problem. However, I feel you could play on resistances and beat it anyway. The problem is for Tentacruel to properly work you'll need Wish support and that's getting into a total revamping of your team then and considering your retiring it I feel just isn't worth it to fix. Tentacruel would also help with the bit of Infernape problem (although Zapdos does well enough) but as I said it's not worth it to fix the team since it's being retired anyway.

You are also vulnerable to the Wobbuffet + Dugtrio + Wish Vaporeon combination. Wobbs can Encore a Suicune on CM, bring in Duggy and kill it. Wobbs can Mirror Coat / Counter every one of them (even Shadow Ball doesn't hurt too much) and with Wish support from Vaporeon it can just rinse and repeat.

Threats:

1-Tyraniboah. The famed stall breaker does it's job perfectly here. You have nothing for it, literally nothing. It's growing rare though so it's question of whether or not you care about it. Suicune does okay against it but it's not reliable. It's not special defensively oriented and T-Boah will wear it down.

2-Sword Dance Heracross (4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe: SD, Megahorn, Close Combat, Stone Edge) basically destroys your team. It can come in on something like Zapdos and set up an SD as you go to Gliscor. Well, an SD Stone Edge 2HKOs Gliscor 100% of the time with your EVs and you can't do anything to it since you lack Aerial Ace. SD Heracross can then proceed to OHKO every Pokemon on your team and outrun all of them with the exception of Deoxys-S who cannot OHKO himself. Consider putting Psychic > Shadow Ball on D/-E or Aerial Ace > Ice Fang on Gliscor to resolve this. I already explained how the Flame Orb Facade Cross still destroys you. You could keep this in check by taking my suggestions of putting Psychic > Shadow Ball.

3. CM Cresselia. You have no sure fire way of beating this. You can set up with Suicune alongside it but then it's a CM War and 1 critical hit means you lose since CM Cresselia will almost always be faster than you and can kill you before you can Rest off the critical hit damage.

4. I see a Life Orb Gyarados weakness as well. Celebi is 2HKOd by DD Ice Fang with Stealth Rock damage and while it can't hurt Suicune yet it can DD up while you CM and kill you off before it does. Deoxys-S can come into a once DD Gyarados and obviously OHKO with T-Bolt, however, most good players with Waterfall first turn to scout rather than DD. Consider Reflect > Leech Seed on Celebi to help out with this.

5. Curselax. You won't be able to successfully Leech Seed away Lax forever while it gets +6 defense +6 attack. Once again, simple solution, Roar > Sleep Talk on Zapdos helps to patch this up.

6. Duel Screen Deoxys-S --> Baton Pass teams basically ruin this team, it's not a sure fire thing since the Passer will often have Taunt but Roar might help to some extent on Zapdos.

7. CM Jirachi kinda just sits there and CMs up and proceed to sweep. Jirachi will be faster than Suicune and will often have a substitute up so it will win that CM war. Roar > STalk again (I'm starting to repeat myself a lot).

8. Raikou. This is obvious and this one you mentioned youself is a massive problem and nearly unbeatable for you. While it doesn't solve it, once again, Roar > Sleep Talk on Zapdos helps a lot since you can wear it down since it doesn't have a reliable recovery move. Roar just seems to solve so many of your problems it's ridiculous, really consider it!

I would do more to help figure out to manage the Tyarniboah weakness and give you a more reliable solution to things like Raikou, Sub CM Rachi etc., but since you are retiring it I don't see the point of making huge changes to it. I guess Curse Snorlax beats those, but if you replace Zapdos you lose a lot of ability to take on Nasty Plot Togekiss, Gengar, Alakazam, etc, so it's a trade off. Lose to something a lot less common or lose to something more common. The choice should be obvious there.

Non-Existant Threat: Azelf @ Kasib Berry : NP / Psychic / Fire Blast / Hidden Power Ground. It completely dominated your team when I played you. But then again, what psycho runs that except me?

Even though I ripped apart your team and made note of every tiny weakness, this is a very good team. It's well designed and each Pokemon complements each other nicely. You seem to have a lot of threats covered and those you don't can often times be worked around. Very good team KG, good luck with your next one.

Edit: I still don't know what this is called Team Doppler Effect though.
 
Doppler is used to track movement. Since this is a stall team, I can track and cover their moves. Lame, but it stuck with me.

Tyraniboah isn't really a problem. Most oh them run Ice Beam, so it doesn't really touch Cune. Dark Pulse can hurt without a Calm Mind, but since there is nothing it can use to 2HKO it, they are either set up fodder or praying for a crit. Celebi can manage Tyraniboah as well, though certainly not as well as Suicune.

I did list Celebi in my counters for Tyranitar, but it only works against lead Tyranitar. As I stated, Celebi can live a CB Crunch with around 16% HP. It could very well be that they were running a bulk FreakTar, but I didn't try that out just once. You might be wondering what good a 16% HP Celebi is. It's amazing how many times I can come in later in the game on a Blissey, Vaporeon, Bronzong, ect. and Recover.

I have no counter for DD LO Tyranitar. Then again, it doesn't truely have a count. I believe an Adamant LO Tyranitar after one DD can 2HKO every Pokemon in standard play. Naturally, things like Starmie and Azelf outspeed Adamant Tyranitar after one DD. Some people run Jolly just to ensure a kill on just about everything. Either way, I just smother it with my defense walls. This team favors physical defense over special defense, as is evident in the fact that Calm Minders tear this team apart.

As for Snorlax, it may appear that I have a weakness to the Curse variation. However, I tested this out and have a strategy against it. As long as I get Leech Seed on it, everything will work out. If it has more than one Curse, I go to Suicune and Calm Mind up to combat their Curses. The standard Curselax never runs Sleep Talk, so I take the upper hand while I Rest. They are constantly having their HP drained slowly, making my HP go down slower.

Jirachi is bad news. This is how Pulse beat me. If you saw the match, you would have laughed. I like, "ZOMG, I'm pwning Pulzeee," and he brings that little bugger out. I was like, "Yep, gg." As you know, it's pretty hard to avoid a crit on Shoddy. I think Thunderbolt crit OHKOed on the second try. Just like Raikou, I have no defense against this. So I will put Roar over Sleep Talk and make my Hetaran absorb all of the sleeps from now on. Ironically, even though Zapdos is my ultimate Gengar counter, I always send Heatran in first. Maybe I've become accustomed to Focus Blast missing.

CM Cresselia does not tear my team apart. Unlike Jirachi and Raikou, every CM Cresselia uses Ice Beam and Psychic. Psychic with max SpA won't be able to get passed Heatran. Perhaps that's how there's a few extra EVs in SpD on Heatran. I don't remember why, though. Along with an initial Leech Seed from Celebi, CM Cresselia can't do much. Suicune also outclasses Cresselia as a Calm Minder, in my opinion. I don't always like risking a Calm Mind war because of a crit.

The only Cresselia I have a slight weakness to is the Charge Beam one. That can rip apart Suicune and does neutral damage on Heatran. The good news is that Charge Beam is (1) not a sure thing and (2) doesn't raise its SpD. Those are the only things I have going for me there.

And lastly, I'd like to say that every Wobbuffet + Dugtrio + Wish Vaporeon team has lost to this. I have battled teams like this almost a dozen times. The two Flying-types, Celebi, and Suicune absolutely murder it. The first time I played one of these, I accidently let them trap my Heatran with Dugtrio and kill it off. But I still pulled off the win. Suicune takes no nonesense from Dugtrio, taking less than half from an EQ and OHKOing with Surf. Dugtrio can't touch Celebi either. They always go for the Sucker Punch and I Leech Seed. When they go for Aerial Ace, congratulations, you've done about 25%! Zapdos vs. Wobbuffet is laughable since they use up twice the amount of PP from Pressure, so those Encores go bye-bye pretty quickly (after a few loops). Gliscor's Stealth Rock PP count also helps to finish the stall. Wobbuffet has nothing to contend with something that has over 40 PP.

The one cheap thing this team is slightly weak to is Wobbuffet + Smeargle. I always go to my Heatran to absorb the sleep and then have a 2/3 chance of breaing the sub and all that jazz. The only problem I ever face is that sometimes I wake up on turn two, right when I would break the combo. That's happened to me at least once.

I have trouble against any Deoxys-S not holding a Life Orb. I should put an Expert Belt on mine because I see the benefits. A late game Cosmic Power Deoxys-S completely wrecks this team. I've been up 4-1 before and lost to that. It Taunts me from Leech Seed or Recovering. It has enough defense to take a hit and outspeeds me to spam its Recover. Seismic Toss / Night Shade give me constant damage, along with the switch. And they usually have TSSS up.

Now that you described our battle, I do recall having a few games like that. I battled this one guy called EU something something. I believe he is #1 on the UU ladder. We split games and they were both longer than 40 minutes. For Shoddy, that's insane. About 3-4 hours for Wi-Fi probably. I do remember someone who used SR and Spikes in a long battle to beat me. That must've been you. You didn't get a flame because I just couldn't find a way in that game to stop you from laying them down. Can't blame hax. :p

And SD (MoP) Heracross does give this team a run for its money, as does your HP Ground NP Azelf. Weird combination that can be seen once in every 500 games, but that's still a weakness. :D
 
lol. I had to nitpick. It's incredibly boring to say "great team no fixes needed" so I had to pull something out :D. Those things I listed are weaknesses but I don't believe a stall team needs to have everything covered (it really isn't possible). To me it's much more important how you play the team and if you can work around the majority of the threats around you, than who cares if you have a problem in theory?

Oh, ignore the CM Cress part by the way. I was being stupid thinking it ran HP Fighting usually. I've seen one person run it and my first thought was HP Fighting was the standard. I wouldn't worry about it now that I think about it.

About the Wobbs combo I mentioned, if you can get around it so be it, it's probably just a papermon problem. Also, who uses Dugtrio to trap Celebi lol. I guess they remember to much from Advance when HP Bug was physical.

Hm. I recall our battled lasting approximately 50 something minutes because I had to stall out all your stupid rest-talkers! 3! I seriously thought about quitting half way through because it wasn't worth it. Also, you couldn't really flame me since my hax would consist of Blissey's Flamethrower doing 9% Suicune.


Again, nice team KG
 
If someone does run HP Fighting, I'd be in major trouble. You would end up sing something like that and have my Heatran walk right to its death. :(

I also like the idea of leading with Zapdos too. Gengar leads are on the rise, at least when I ladder. :p
 
Kevin Garrett said:
If someone does run HP Fighting, I'd be in major trouble. You would end up sing something like that and have my Heatran walk right to its death. :(

I also like the idea of leading with Zapdos too. Gengar leads are on the rise, at least when I ladder. :p

I've actually noticed that there are "lead" trends based on what time of the day I ladder. I actually shift my teams based on who I think is on at that time.

Also, I edited my above post after you posted so you might have missed my edits. I clarified some things I wanted to say before but I forgot too.
 
AugustRush said:
Salice, those Heatran EVs are so 350 SpAtk Gengar Focus Blast 3HKOs

Timid, 350 SpA Gengar's Focus Blast actually always 2HKO with SR damage (52% - 61%), as a side note though, when did the standard become 216 SpA EVS?
 
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