OU: Pokémon Swagplay Ban Discussion

I thought we were staying on topic?

anyway, my aversion to using legends in entirely personal, stemming from gen 1 when using legendaries that were so much more powerful than other pokemon was "cheap". don't let that go out of context though, I don't care if other people use legendaries, I just refuse to use them. There is no emotional attachment to legends, emotional attachment is primarily how I build my teams, I of course try to build rounded teams, based around pokemon I like, like mamoswine, crawdaunt, Drapion Chandelure, and basically any dark type ever.

I'm ok with any strategy, I don't use half of them, but I respect swagplay because, despite what a lot of people think, It takes a lot of skill and a lot of cajones because it's so easy to destroy.

As far as judgement goes, wasn't judgment the whole point of the thread in the first place? you did ask our opinions of banning sawgplay

I don't "hate" smogon, I just don't like banning moves, pokemon(other than legends) and abilities.
 
SwagPlay.... needs to be set up? I don't follow. From what I've played against, it requires no setup whatsoever and can completely screw you over if you don't have a counter.
 
Actually, I've seen several variants. One end of the spectrum (let's call it 'intelligent') sets up hazards while using swagplay to make switches even less viable as you'll take more than a free Foul Play hit, while the other end (I call 'unintelligent') focuses solely on spreading confusion, status, and relying on free Foul Play hits on switches to rack up the damage, and as such requires even less thought than any other variant. The last version is actually more vulnerable to defeat, however, as pokemon like Volcarona, Rotom, and several other special attackers (with not only pathetic attack/defense ratios but also that are not weak to dark) make purely abusing confusion recoil/a relatively ineffective Foul Play hit all but useless, especially if said pokemon carry leftovers (which can potentially heal off more damage than confusion does). This form of "countering" swagplay is not reliable and can't be considered an official counter-strategy as a simple 'bandaid-Blissey' renders it meaningless.
 
PG24 said:
Swagger is now banned.

OuO
Click to expand...

Every American teenager begs to differ :3

I'm pretty pleased with this decision. You can't deny the uncompetitive playstyle this promoted, and it's a great relief to see it go. Not much else to say on this, just an end of an unfortunate era in competitive history.
 
PG24 said:
Swagger is now banned.

OuO
Click to expand...

#praisejesussmogon

But no, this is really really good. Made my day when I heard it went through and with the majority that it did.

dmaster out.
 
I come from VGC so i extremely dislike all the bans Smogon forces on. I understand that VGC and Smogon are two DIFFERENT Metas but i still enjoy playing smogon. But lets be real here.(I never used Swagger Tatics butnit wasnt a threat to me when i played) If Swagger was ban because it was "uncompetitive" that only backs it self into a conner because if something is "uncompetitive" it shouldnt be a problem, right? WRONG! People who play Smogon 100% of the time and dont think there is any other way to play are "uncompetitive." They remove things the pose a threat to THIER current meta and extremely dislike change. They refuse to change with the meta so they remove any thing that changes it. What peolple should do is CHANGE WITH THE META. You should make teams that COUNTER the threats of the meta. This allows pokemon that arent good in the "Tier system" to become threats. This lets the meta change all the time as people will start to bring pokemon to counter the counters of the original threats. In the end banning things like Mega Luke, Gengar, Kang, and swagger arent helping the Meta but hurting it.

Im not hating on the players who play just Smogon but they need to open their eyes and see they are not doing justices.

~~PhantomHaze
 
PhantomHaze said:
I come from VGC so i extremely dislike all the bans Smogon forces on. I understand that VGC and Smogon are two DIFFERENT Metas but i still enjoy playing smogon. But lets be real here.(I never used Swagger Tatics butnit wasnt a threat to me when i played) If Swagger was ban because it was "uncompetitive" that only backs it self into a conner because if something is "uncompetitive" it shouldnt be a problem, right? WRONG! People who play Smogon 100% of the time and dont think there is any other way to play are "uncompetitive." They remove things the pose a threat to THIER current meta and extremely dislike change. They refuse to change with the meta so they remove any thing that changes it. What peolple should do is CHANGE WITH THE META. You should make teams that COUNTER the threats of the meta. This allows pokemon that arent good in the "Tier system" to become threats. This lets the meta change all the time as people will start to bring pokemon to counter the counters of the original threats. In the end banning things like Mega Luke, Gengar, Kang, and swagger arent helping the Meta but hurting it.

Im not hating on the players who play just Smogon but they need to open their eyes and see they are not doing justices.

~~PhantomHaze
Click to expand...
Very good thoughts here, but I think you have the wrong definition of "uncompetitive" for what Swagger is. Uncompetitive here isn't "a concept that is outclassed and has no relative factor in the metagame" but instead is "a concept that cripples the health of the game as a whole and promotes an unstable, unskillful environment" imo. That's what Smogon aims to do, eliminating threats to a healthy game to where nothing is too overpowered or luck-based and the game is in as stable of a state as we can reach. Things like those you listed at the end of your paragraph are examples of both of those.

It's not that we refuse to change with the meta - the idea is to keep it stable, not letting it run free with powercreep and unruly, unskillful playstyles like SwagPlay.
 
Uralya said:
PhantomHaze said:
I come from VGC so i extremely dislike all the bans Smogon forces on. I understand that VGC and Smogon are two DIFFERENT Metas but i still enjoy playing smogon. But lets be real here.(I never used Swagger Tatics butnit wasnt a threat to me when i played) If Swagger was ban because it was "uncompetitive" that only backs it self into a conner because if something is "uncompetitive" it shouldnt be a problem, right? WRONG! People who play Smogon 100% of the time and dont think there is any other way to play are "uncompetitive." They remove things the pose a threat to THIER current meta and extremely dislike change. They refuse to change with the meta so they remove any thing that changes it. What peolple should do is CHANGE WITH THE META. You should make teams that COUNTER the threats of the meta. This allows pokemon that arent good in the "Tier system" to become threats. This lets the meta change all the time as people will start to bring pokemon to counter the counters of the original threats. In the end banning things like Mega Luke, Gengar, Kang, and swagger arent helping the Meta but hurting it.

Im not hating on the players who play just Smogon but they need to open their eyes and see they are not doing justices.

~~PhantomHaze
Click to expand...
Very good thoughts here, but I think you have the wrong definition of "uncompetitive" for what Swagger is. Uncompetitive here isn't "a concept that is outclassed and has no relative factor in the metagame" but instead is "a concept that cripples the health of the game as a whole and promotes an unstable, unskillful environment" imo. That's what Smogon aims to do, eliminating threats to a healthy game to where nothing is too overpowered or luck-based and the game is in as stable of a state as we can reach. Things like those you listed at the end of your paragraph are examples of both of those.

It's not that we refuse to change with the meta - the idea is to keep it stable, not letting it run free with powercreep and unruly, unskillful playstyles like SwagPlay.
Click to expand...

I see what you mean by "uncompetitive" but it sadly has many meanings that can be taken differently. Out of the ones i listed in the my first paragraph i would have to say SwagPlay is the most "overpowered" but as the for the Mega's that have been banned, i strongly disagree about that. What i was trying to get to is that if you keep a Meta the same through out time it becomes boring, and in Smogons case (IMO) you start to see the same teams over and over again. That is why (IMO) a constantly revolving Meta is "heathier" than one thats not. I respect your views(and everone elses) and hopefully one day we can have a meta everone agrees on!:D

~~PhantomHaze
 
The only problem I have with this, that's probably been mentioned and disproved/argued already, is that Swagplay wasn't really a viable strategy to begin with, and while it may have promoted unskillful play, it was only every used at lower levels, as far as my experience goes. I would almost guarantee that this strategy didn't make an impact on actual, high level, competitive play. Unlike, let's say, Garchomp with Sand Veil when Sandstorm was permanent. That was broken. I feel like Swagplay was one of those really easy "cool" and/or "annoying" things that newer players did because they didn't really want to think of a strategy, or just didn't have the skill to come up with one yet. It was fun too, don't get me wrong, I did this as soon as I heard about it. Threw a set of keys into my team and lol'd for a day. But that hour or so of gameplay alone showed me that this was not something I could use if I wanted to consistently win. And if the strategy isn't allowing no skill (or even "high" skill) players to win without thinking, then what's the problem? It's annoying? Hell yeah it is, but so is paraflinch, and that's a much more competitively viable strategy (imo).

So yeah, just my thoughts now that it's already banned, haha, shoulda made a Smogon account before they did it so I could argue there.
 
PhantomHaze said:
I see what you mean by "uncompetitive" but it sadly has many meanings that can be taken differently. Out of the ones i listed in the my first paragraph i would have to say SwagPlay is the most "overpowered" but as the for the Mega's that have been banned, i strongly disagree about that. What i was trying to get to is that if you keep a Meta the same through out time it becomes boring, and in Smogons case (IMO) you start to see the same teams over and over again. That is why (IMO) a constantly revolving Meta is "heathier" than one thats not. I respect your views(and everone elses) and hopefully one day we can have a meta everone agrees on!:D

~~PhantomHaze
Click to expand...

It does have many meanings, but your first paragraph to me twisted the definition you intended to use. I see what you mean nonetheless. You and Smogon are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to what defines an ideal game state and the steps that should be taken. I'd go so far as to call Smogon a largely conservative player base, whereas you have a very liberal and free approach. I guess it comes down to preference where you fall on the line.

In the end, SwagPlay may not fit your definition, but it fits the definition as far as a stable, conservative metagame goes. Look on the bright side - this generation is leagues better than the last one :)

@MtheW: you should have. Very cohesive thoughts. I'm not sure if you know, but the OU Suspect Test ladder had SwagPlay teams at its top near the end of its duration (the one that took out Mega Luke and Genesect). The OU ladder had its fair share in the middle of it iirc, but the hype some people gave it from the suspect test is probably what got it up on the block. There was an RMT on Smogon about the first team and it was a beehive.
 
Uralya said:
It does have many meanings, but your first paragraph to me twisted the definition you intended to use. I see what you mean nonetheless. You and Smogon are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to what defines an ideal game state and the steps that should be taken. I'd go so far as to call Smogon a largely conservative player base, whereas you have a very liberal and free approach. I guess it comes down to preference where you fall on the line.

In the end, SwagPlay may not fit your definition, but it fits the definition as far as a stable, conservative metagame goes. Look on the bright side - this generation is leagues better than the last one. :)
Click to expand...

That is not what i meant to do but it is one of those things that i can rant on so i can get ahead of my self. Im sorry it seemed like that. And you are right, im a very liberal person to begin with so most of my opinions are like that. Also i agree this generation is much better so far than the last one. :D In the end me by myself cant make a huge difference i just like to have my views out there!:)

~~PhantomHaze
 
I'm honestly very surprised, Uralya. Like I said, my ideas came from my experience alone, so maybe I wasn't utilizing Swagplay like those people who managed to work their way up the ladder, but I never would have guessed it was viable at that level at all. This shows me why the ended up banning it, I suppose. Although I'm sure I could argue that it was doing well in the suspect because it was still "new" (might be false, not sure) and after Mega Luke and Genesect got taken out, team compositions were more susceptible to this strategy (for some reason, I dunno, it would take me a while to think of something that made sense), I won't because obviously they made their decision, and they know a heck of a lot more about competitive play than I do.

Thanks for the insight!
 
MtheW said:
I'm honestly very surprised, Uralya. Like I said, my ideas came from my experience alone, so maybe I wasn't utilizing Swagplay like those people who managed to work their way up the ladder, but I never would have guessed it was viable at that level at all. This shows me why the ended up banning it, I suppose. Although I'm sure I could argue that it was doing well in the suspect because it was still "new" (might be false, not sure) and after Mega Luke and Genesect got taken out, team compositions were more susceptible to this strategy (for some reason, I dunno, it would take me a while to think of something that made sense), I won't because obviously they made their decision, and they know a heck of a lot more about competitive play than I do.

Thanks for the insight!
Click to expand...
I can see Gsect and M.Lucario easily weakening swagplay. Both generally run fast, special-based or mixed sets. Genesect threatens practically every major Swagplay user with the combination of Flamethrower (Klefki), Ice Beam (Thundurus), and U-turn (Liepard, also easily KOs Sableye after a swagger). Mega Lucario can easily threaten even unboosted with either an Adaptability Bullet Punch or Flash Cannon on top of resisting Foul Play, making swagplay harder to pull off without a sub already up (not to mention Vaccum Wave on some special-based M.Lucario sets, capable of KOing Liepard with superior speed to boot (base 112 on M. Lucario vs base 106 on Liepard)
 
MtheW said:
I'm honestly very surprised, Uralya. Like I said, my ideas came from my experience alone, so maybe I wasn't utilizing Swagplay like those people who managed to work their way up the ladder, but I never would have guessed it was viable at that level at all. This shows me why the ended up banning it, I suppose. Although I'm sure I could argue that it was doing well in the suspect because it was still "new" (might be false, not sure) and after Mega Luke and Genesect got taken out, team compositions were more susceptible to this strategy (for some reason, I dunno, it would take me a while to think of something that made sense), I won't because obviously they made their decision, and they know a heck of a lot more about competitive play than I do.

Thanks for the insight!
Click to expand...
No prob. To sum it all up, it took the game by storm and I don't think anyone saw it doing as well as it did. The playstyle existed, but it took a bit for someone to make it more than a gimmick. Also, iSharingan brings up a few points on how SwagPlay was rid of less threats with the advent of the suspect test. I actually never considered that.
 
iSharingan took the time to find the reasons I was too lazy to come up with, haha! That wasn't exactly my point, though, my point being that it just took some time for team comps to be better adjusted to swagplay after the removal of Mega Luke and Genesect, and thus the suspect ladder wasn't a good representation. iSharingan just explained how their removal was, in fact, a factor in swagplay's initial rise in effectiveness. Regardless, I don't even play anymore, so this doesn't effect me, I just wanted to throw out some ideas, because I enjoy arguing (politely and respectfully, of course) for the sake of arguing.
 
How is it that enough people actually used swagplay to the point that it needed to be banned? How can enough people actually enjoy using this luck-based strategy so much that it became a problem?
 
Cinesra said:
How is it that enough people actually used swagplay to the point that it needed to be banned? How can enough people actually enjoy using this luck-based strategy so much that it became a problem?
Click to expand...
I see where you're coming from, but I should have elaborated on my hypothesis more, because SwagPlay wasn't as popular as I might have implied earlier. What I meant was that, compared to the overall usage of SwagPlay on the suspect and regular OU ladders, the concentration at the top was substantially higher, and that may have caused enough hype to make it a viable concern and not just a gimmick. Even Haunter (runs the suspect testing) acknowledged, and with a rather uneasy tone, that it was a "thing" and was being complained about by a "large portion of the community." Even if it wasn't as high in usage as the prevalent playstyles, I'd say it was successful enough at the top to where it made a definite impact. There's a difference between "popularity causing concern" and "concentration causing awareness causing concern" - that's what I would put this down to. I apologize for any confusion; elaboration is necessary here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top