OU: Pokémon Swagplay Ban Discussion

Advocating a ban on Swagger. I hate having to use the words "degenerate" and "luck-based", but they suit the swagplay strategy perfectly. It violates the very definition of competitive. Yes, you can possibly play around it, but you could possibly not be able to either due to the nature of confusion. Seeing this blasphemy on the ladder during the last suspect test had myself label it as detestable from the start, and while it's fun to watch, it's rage-inducing to play against. Banning the individual Pokemon isn't ideal due to that many of the prime suspects are versatile in other roles, e.g. Thundurus and Klefki. Also, banning it with Prankster in tandem is too complex of a ban, which is what we try to avoid to begin with. We wouldn't really lose much outside of swagplay, what with Swagger's majority of viability coming from doubles and all.

To hell with it.
 
It's too luck-based for it's own good. I've been lucky, only having to play against it like, once, but it's still infuriating. Banning Prankster's going to kill a lot of nice things, and banning specific Pokémon would be too much, in my opinion.
Ban Swagger. It's painful for everyone.
 
If they can Ban Heal Pulse and that one berry under endless battle clause, I see no reason as to why they can't do another complex ban with "the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster".
 
They haven't banned Heal Pulse and Leppa Berry in specific, they've banned any sets that can make a battle last forever without a second option.
 
As a person who uses/likes to use Swagger and Prankster, this makes me angry, it's luck based, you don't always win using SwaggPlay, actually, a Meowstic with Safeguard can stop that, I lost to a Meowstic like that in a tournament. And well, Smogon likes to ban everything they don't like, and that's unfair, if they can't stop it, then carry something with Safeguard. I think that SwaggPlay is the same as usign a Tank Umbreon with Wish, or a Suicune with Scald and Calm Mind, or a Chansey with Minimize, if they ban it, then they should ban other stuff like the previously mentioned. Also, they can simply carry a Lum Berry and that's it, or a Lum Berry with a Pokémon with Harvest.

If paraflinch is acceptable I don't see a problem with swagplay.
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Let me like this! I ran out of Likes.
 
Trainerhan1 said:
If paraflinch is acceptable I don't see a problem with swagplay.
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Because
1. The Pokemon using the Flinch move has to have Serene Grace AND it has to be faster than the pokemon its attacking and not get OHKO'd by one of its moves.
2. Paraflinchers can't run Substitute meaning that as long as you can 1-2 HKO them, they are managable.
3. The Pokemon using SwagPlay can switch out since Confusion lasts for more than one turn, Paraflinchers cannot.
4. SwagPlayers can literally sit there and do nothing as you kill yourself, whereas Paraflinchers are doing damage to you and are technically the ones doing the work.
5. The only big Paraflincher rn is Togekiss who is weak to Stealth Rocks, Klefki (and other Swag Players), are not.
6. The only big Paraflincher rn is Togekiss, meaning that you can't run like 4 on the same team.
 
Don't forget Jirachi.
The video I posted above is a perfect example of how the strategy is ridiculously luck-based. It doesn't show how it can turn against you, but it does show how it can't always work.
 
Swagplay is no different than evasion moves in my opinion. Both take the games away from skill and turn it into a game of luck. It's hilariously uncompetitive.

Throw it out the window!
 
Chaos Jackal said:
Don't forget Jirachi.
The video I posted above is a perfect example of how the strategy is ridiculously luck-based. It doesn't show how it can turn against you, but it does show how it can't always work.
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Oh yeah forgot about him, but most people don't bother using Paraflinch Jirachi and are going more offensive as I've seen lately.

Professor Palutena said:
Swagplay is no different than evasion moves in my opinion. Both take the games away from skill and turn it into a game of luck. It's hilariously uncompetitive.

Throw it out the window!
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Thank Helix evasion moves are banned.
 
@ ATA

1. That's where the para part comes in and all swagplayers have to have Prankster.
2. Why can't it run sub?
3. The para part gives the user a free chance to switch.
4. You sit there and kill yourself half the time, the other half the +2 attack backfires and costs you the game.
5. Togekiss has actual bulk and is immune to toxic/spikes while most swagplayers are not.
6. I'll give you that one, but it's only a matter of time until another is introduced in a future gen and don't underestimate Dunsparce.

Even though Togekiss is the only big paraflincher right now, it can function perfectly fine without relying on paraflinch while all swagplayers only have one thing going for them which is swagplay.
 
Trainerhan1 said:
@ ATA

1. That's where the para part comes in and all swagplayers have to have Prankster.
2. Why can't it run sub?
3. The para part gives the user a free chance to switch.
4. You sit there and kill yourself half the time, the other half the +2 attack backfires and costs you the game.
5. Togekiss has actual bulk and is immune to toxic/spikes while most swagplayers are not.
6. I'll give you that one, but it's only a matter of time until another is introduced in a future gen and don't underestimate Dunsparce.

Even though Togekiss is the only big paraflincher right now, it can function perfectly fine without relying on paraflinch while all swagplayers only have one thing going for them which is swagplay.
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In addtion to what Han said, we rely on the Confusion, if not, a simple Brave Bird kills us. Also, most of the times, it's hard to win to another Pokémon with that kind of Abilities, such as, Talonflame. Because Klefki doesn't live a lot, a simple Fire Attack and it's dead.
 
That's the problem Eron. Half the time you get killed. The other half, you win by basically playing Pokemon not worth of OU. Murkrow, Liepard, even Klefki, they aren't good Pokemon apart from that ridiculous strategy. Thundurus is the only really good Prankster, with Klefki being just decent. And Thundurus doesn't get Foul Play, which is the other ridiculous part of the strategy. You literally do nothing with it. You just click Swagger and wait. If heads, you're done. If tails, you win. Too luck-based. I'm not exactly in favor of banning it, but I can see the problem, and I wouldn't mind much if it went away (unless it's the start of the #banallthings campaign:p).
 
Trainerhan1 said:
2. Why can't it run sub?
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Because it has to keep using its flinch attack (IE Air Slash during its turn instead of using Sub.

3. The para part gives the user a free chance to switch.
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Relying on strictly para to hax them while you switch is much more unreliable than relying on para and confuse while you switch

In addtion to what Han said, we rely on the Confusion, if not, a simple Brave Bird kills us. Also, most of the times, it's hard to win to another Pokémon with that kind of Abilities, such as, Talonflame. Because Klefki doesn't live a lot, a simple Fire Attack and it's dead.
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Ok and there is nothing saying i can't run a stealth rocker or somehting else to counter said Talonflame.
 
Chaos Jackal said:
That's the problem Eron. Half the time you get killed. The other half, you win by basically playing Pokemon not worth of OU. Murkrow, Liepard, even Klefki, they aren't good Pokemon apart from that ridiculous strategy. Thundurus is the only really good Prankster, with Klefki being just decent. And Thundurus doesn't get Foul Play, which is the other ridiculous part of the strategy. You literally do nothing with it. You just click Swagger and wait. If heads, you're done. If tails, you win. Too luck-based. I'm not exactly in favor of banning it, but I can see the problem, and I wouldn't mind much if it went away (unless it's the start of the #banallthings campaign:p).
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They won't take much time to start it... really.

They will start it with Klefki, then with Sableye (Sableye is a good SwaggerPlay and lasts more than Klefki), then with Azumarril with Huge Power, then with AZ's Floette, until we only have Dragons and Tyranitar.
 
AlexanderTheAwesome said:
Trainerhan1 said:
2. Why can't it run sub?
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Because it has to keep using its flinch attack (IE Air Slash during its turn instead of using Sub.

3. The para part gives the user a free chance to switch.
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Relying on strictly para to hax them while you switch is much more unreliable than relying on para and confuse while you switch
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So basically you rely on parahax to get a sub, which isn't very different from confusion. One is 50/50 the other 25/75(?) but the former wears off unlike para. I'm just saying the if one goes the other should too because they're no different.
 
What is the standard sets for this? Like Foul Play, Swagger, Substitute, Spikes/Taunt?
 
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