Discussion Octillery VS Slurpuff

[MaD_DoG]

Hey all! So if you had the choice of putting in a 2-2 line of Octillery BKT or a 2-2 line of Slurpuff PHF, which would you choose? This is assuming you already have Shaymin EX in your deck. My personal choice would be Slurpuff because you can use it unconditionally whereas with Octillery your hand have to be less than 5, but that's just my opinion. I would like to see you guy's thought processes.

 

[bbninjas]

I'd choose Octillery. I find that more often than not my hands will be at least under four, meaning I'm guaranteed a card by Octillery. I'm also likely to drop my hand to even lower numbers, so I may even able to draw multiple cards off a single Octillery. Slurpuff would require unnecessary devoted deck space and bench space to reach the same amount of draw as Octillery.

 

[Brown_Unibrow]

Octillery for sure. He's my Shaymin replacement. I have him in my Kyurem Lapras deck and he works great because he can be searched with dive ball and can consistently get more cards than slurpuff. Your slurpuff, when active, is very likely to get KO'd because you can't retreat twice per turn. Octillery, on the other hand can be benched and get you up to 5 cards.

 

[Ms Hugo]

Depends on the deck. Decks where you need to maintain cards in your hand like Toad/Tina or Vileplume benefit more from Slurpuff because you don't need/want to play to below 5.

Mostly though, I rate Octillery higher overall.

 

[kingqazbatt]

Depends on the deck. Decks where you need to maintain cards in your hand like Toad/Tina or Vileplume benefit more from Slurpuff because you don't need/want to play to below 5.

Mostly though, I rate Octillery higher overall.

this is exactly correct octilery is better in most cases but lock decks seem to do better with slurpuff

 

[awesomeMSG]

I would choose Octillery because getting hand sizes down is pretty easy to do. But as @Ms Hugo said, it also depends on the deck because maybe you play a gallade deck (BKT 84) for draw, slurpuff would be better to get the right cards, but you could just as well use octillery.

 

[PMJ]

If you have 1 card in your hand, Octillery will get you 4. Slurpuff gets you 1. That can be the difference between scooping and taking your last prize in the finals.

 

[Otaku]

One works with Archie's Ace in the Hole, the other does not.

...

All the more important factors were already mentioned.

 

[Elbow]

One works with Archie's Ace in the Hole, the other does not.

...

All the more important factors were already mentioned.

No offense, but if you are getting a stage one out of the discard with archie's that has 90 hp you are doing something wrong.

And it's night and day with Octillery. Sure, drawing one can be ok in situations where you have 5 or more cards in your hand, but odds are that those cards are good cards, and you wouldn't necessarily need to be drawing then anyways.

 

[festizzio]

No offense, but if you are getting a stage one out of the discard with archie's that has 90 hp you are doing something wrong.

And it's night and day with Octillery. Sure, drawing one can be ok in situations where you have 5 or more cards in your hand, but odds are that those cards are good cards, and you wouldn't necessarily need to be drawing then anyways.

I'm pretty sure he was just being facetious. I definitely prefer Octillery in a format where Ultra Ball counts are so high. Especially in stage 2 decks, where you can empty your hand really fast with Rare Candy.

Edit: I think some of the only exceptions where Slurpuff is almost strictly better would be in a Florges-EX deck, to take advantage of the extra damage, or in a Swampert PCL or similar to guarantee the card you searched for.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

The argument here is the same with Shanna vs Tierno. Octillery will put you up to 5 cards. It has a limit and will always put you up to 5. If you're above it, you cant draw but Slurpuff will always get you 1 card, no matter your hand size. If you find yourself playing a 2-2 line of Octillery and not using it as much (because of large hand sizes), then replace it with Slurpuff because you'll draw 2 cards each turn, assuming you have both in play and in some cases, can get at least 3.

This all depends on your deck. If you play cards fast, then octillery will be a good friend but if you have a conservative play style like I do, Slurpuff may be better because you can always draw at least 1 card per turn. In my experience, Octillery does work well for me but sometimes I go 3+ turns without ever using it (with a stage 2 deck anyway) or decks that require I keep cards around (decks that love SSU and Max Potion) so maybe Slurpuff works better here because of drawing at least 1 or 2 cards.

 

[Timewoven]

I play Octillery a ton mainly because I play decks that like to use a ton of cards quickly to set up so it's nice to have the option to draw back up to 5 without using the supporter. That being said I know some decks like Noctowl, Metagross AT, or Vileplume where you are going to always have more then 5 cards so you "could" tech slurpuff instead

 

[Otaku]

No offense, but if you are getting a stage one out of the discard with archie's that has 90 hp you are doing something wrong.

I'm pretty sure he was just being facetious.

If you have to preface something with "No offense" it generally means you ought to find a better way to phrase it so that it is less likely to cause offense, or that you actually do mean to cause offense and are saying it tongue-in-cheek. Not sure what the goal was with the context here; I'm assuming I said something that seemed really stupid and Elbow figured I should know but that no matter how it was said, it might sound bad.

Anyway, festizzio is half correct; the important differences were covered, though I need real reasons for why not to use Archie's Ace in the Hole. I have not run Octillery in anything yet. When I have encountered it, some Evolve into it from hand and some have used Archie's Ace in the Hole. There is nothing inherently wrong with using Archie's Ace in the Hole to get a Stage 1 into play. The only other option to do it Turn 1 is Wally. Of the three, manually Evolving only works when the opponent (in this case, me) has a slow setup or a juicier target. The last bit can be a valid defensive tactic - how many times has your opponent spared Shaymin-EX because even if it was an easy two Prizes, there was something else on the board that needed to be KOed first.

Being a Stage 1 is not a reason to avoid using Archie's Ace in the Hole. Neither is having 90 HP. If that is one's own reason for avoiding the combo, what if the Stage 1 had an Ability that stated "You win!" on it. That would totally be worth rushing into play. Ridiculous, fictional example? Absolutely, but that is how you test the argument to see if there are indeed any limits to it. In this case, consider how decks that use Archie's Ace in the Hole operate. The have a high likelihood of pulling it off on the player's first turn and they run a lot of cards that allow them to shrink the hand while gaining other benefits. Put that together with a Stage 1 that allows you to draw until you have five cards in hand each turn. Sounds like a massive opportunity for four and five card draws each turn.

Now as I have done zero testing and those I've encountered using Octillery have had mixed results in the first place and were just in Versus mode on the PTCGO, I'm only guessing.

 

[Elbow]

Anyway, festizzio is half correct; the important differences were covered, though I need real reasons for why not to use Archie's Ace in the Hole. I have not run Octillery in anything yet. When I have encountered it, some Evolve into it from hand and some have used Archie's Ace in the Hole. There is nothing inherently wrong with using Archie's Ace in the Hole to get a Stage 1 into play. The only other option to do it Turn 1 is Wally. Of the three, manually Evolving only works when the opponent (in this case, me) has a slow setup or a juicier target. The last bit can be a valid defensive tactic - how many times has your opponent spared Shaymin-EX because even if it was an easy two Prizes, there was something else on the board that needed to be KOed first.

Being a Stage 1 is not a reason to avoid using Archie's Ace in the Hole. Neither is having 90 HP. If that is one's own reason for avoiding the combo, what if the Stage 1 had an Ability that stated "You win!" on it. That would totally be worth rushing into play. Ridiculous, fictional example? Absolutely, but that is how you test the argument to see if there are indeed any limits to it. In this case, consider how decks that use Archie's Ace in the Hole operate. The have a high likelihood of pulling it off on the player's first turn and they run a lot of cards that allow them to shrink the hand while gaining other benefits. Put that together with a Stage 1 that allows you to draw until you have five cards in hand each turn. Sounds like a massive opportunity for four and five card draws each turn.

But it's a stage one... In a format with lock cards, there's basically no drawbacks when it comes to stage 1 manually evolving. When it comes to stage 2s, well, they are virtually non existent. Outside of Crobat and Vileplume, you don't see rare candy nor other cards that get out stage 2s quicker outside of Archies and Maxies. The most popular cards being taken from the discard from Archies and Maxies, at least from my POV from 6 city championships and a regionals were Gallade, Blastoise, Primal Groudon/Kyogre (do not quote me on those being stage 1s), and Empoleon. All of those are stage 2s in formats with locks makes logical sense to be gotten out of Maxies/Archies. Gallade does 130 off the bat and can look at the top 5 cards, Blastoise immediately gives you water energy attachments, etc. Octillery gives you like 1 card at max off an Archies, which is so meh. Obviously it's not used primarily for the turn you archies, but to actually archies you have to do A LOT of discarding. You are using Ultra Ball, Acro Bike, Trainer's Mail, etc. to dig for the cards to archies, and you might not even get it every game. This is where not using archie's comes in. First, remoraid is a great card. If you start with it, you can use it's attack (or switch out) to get it to the bench and has a commendable 60 HP. The evolution has 90 HP, and you know what that means? It can be searched for with Level ball and Ultra Ball. Odds are is that if you run octillery, you are running Level ball, and most certainly Ultra Ball. So, the real question is why you would need to get an octillery up turn one? What would that really achieve when you can EASILY get it up turn two. Do you really need that extra 1-3 card draw turn one? I doubt it. It's not the fact that it has 90 HP makes it illegible for archies, but the whole reason why you would get it up and how easy it is already to set up without archies the reasons why you just don't need to dig and waste cards in your deck for a minor draw set up card (which is definitely worst than Shaymin EX).
In my testing with it, if I had remoraid and Shaymin or Octillery and Shaymin on my bench, almost 0 times did my opponent go for octillery. When they did it was for game, but never for the reason of it "something else on the board that needed to be KOed first." How is Octillery more valueable than Shaymin in a format without N? Judge is the only card that affects both players, but you draw to 5 at the beginning of your turn anyways. Shaymin is worth 2 prizes and has 20 more HP, which is very easy to achieve with a muscle band, Golbat/Crobat, or Giovanni's (if they weren't hitting it already). Shaymin even has a more valuable attack than Octillery and would remove the real big 2 Prize threat off the field. Here's a very likely situation. Your opponent has a 2HKO on an EX your bench that's setting up for an attack in a turn or two. You also have a remoraid/octillery there as well. I very much doubt your opponent will try to eliminate the real threat of a pokemon who will actually attack for a pokemon who draws up to five. Against Gallade/Octillery, I personally never KO an Octillery unless if I have to (no lysandre/final prize situation) as Gallade and Shaymins are the real threats.
Lastly, if a stage one had an ability that said you win, no one STILL would run archies. They would run 4 Basic and 4 stage 1 with 4 wally, 4 trainers mail, 4 acro bike, 4 vs seeker, and 4 battle compressor. That would be much more effective than hoping it to be in the discard with one card in hand.

 

[Otaku]

@Elbow

I appreciate you taking time to make a longer response, but at the risk of sounding demanding or evasive, s'kind of hard to follow what you wrote.

From what I can tell, you don't draw a distinction between whether there is a "drawback" to manually Evolving versus whether there is a "benefit" to speeding things up with Archie's Ace in the Hole. Or maybe you do but just don't think it matters? A deck that is geared towards Archie's Ace in the Hole may have a mostly dead hand post Archie's Ace in the Hole but most of the time if you're getting a zero or single card draw after Octillery hits the field via Archie's Ace in the Hole, I would think something was wrong. I don't expect to frequently zero out my hand and draw another five, but every little bit does help.

As for what is the biggest threat on the board, we have the problem where you may have the correct end conclusion, but I'm not sure if you have the right reasoning. Why does that matter? If I told you that the original Mewtwo-EX was and still is used because Psydrive does 120 damage for three Energy, I would be correct that the original Mewtwo-EX was and still is used but I'd have the reason why wrong... and you'd question my judgment. What is more, if we discussed other cards that did 120 damage for three Energy, accepting the premise that Psydrive is what made Mewtwo-EX great would mean we might mistake those cards as better than they are.

You've given some solid points for why Archie's Ace in the Hole is unnecessary for Octillery but you keep overselling them. A Shaymin-EX already on the field may be an easy two Prizes, but it can't draw you anymore cards unless you return it to your hand. That means using a card effect or attacking with it, each of which have their own trade-offs. Looking at what deck your opponent is playing can usually tip you off about how likely that is to happen. If your opponent isn't running something where bouncing Shaymin-EX is likely and neither of you are running Sky Field or Parallel City, that Shaymin-EX isn't going anywhere and it isn't hurting me at all... so I only need to take it out when it is for the win. If my opponent has a strong attacker that I need to be taking out instead, I shouldn't Lysandre out and OHKO Shaymin-EX unless it is for the game. I'll go up a quick two Prizes, but then my opponent will catch-up or even pull ahead because I left the current attacker alone.

What about with Octillery? A Benched Octillery is not just sitting there doing nothing, at least most of the time. I have to consider whether or not the additional draw power is a bigger threat than whatever else is on the field, even if I could instead take two Prizes KOing something else. The same goes for the much easier to KO Remoraid, especially if your opponent is running a deck that can damage multiple targets at once. Again you have given me reason to reconsider just using Archie's Ace in the Hole to get Octillery into play, but then you say something else that doesn't sound right so I start to doubt the points that do have merit.

Lastly, as a reminder... I tossed in Octillery working with Archie's Ace in the Hole because the other, more important factors had already been addressed.

 

[infernape1245]

Hi, just adding my two cents on the matter cuz' I finally returned to playing after a month-long hiatus; and I finally got my hands on two octillery cards.

Firstly, Archie's/Maxie's for whatever is absolutely the player's call in deck choice and build. Currently, I'm running the Vespiquen/Eeveelutions deck, and it has served me well (even after my hiatus). I just recently added Archie's and Octillery to my deck and here's why it works. Two Octillery in the deck mean automatic discard fodder to fuel Vespiquen's Bee Revenge attack. Even before having Octillery, early-mid game I've always managed to drop my hand size down to zero. it's only late game where it's not particularly useful because of hand size and used resources. But its better than having Shaymin EX sit on my bench for an easy win; that has happened to me a lot.

Secondly, with regards to the original topic, personally I think I would run both in one deck, haha. But if I had to choose, I would go for Slurpuff (assuming its not my Vespiquen Build). Why? Being able to draw a card per turn no water what is always good, Octillery will sit on the bench and probably do nothing half the time. But that's being general, it goes back to my first point; deck choice and build.

I'm still going to do some further testing before bringing my Queen's Forest Deck (that's what I'm calling it, haha) to any tournament. But so far, I have managed to get Octillery out Turn One or Turn Two. And if I can't bring it out by then? Well, more fuel for Bee Revenge (seriously, some games I just discard everything buy my bees to hit fast and hard).

 

[21times]

This has been an awesome thread. This is what this game is all about and why it's so addictive.

I've used both and I think both are great. I started out with slurpee but now that I'm moving away from supporters and more towards items, Octillery is the better play, right?