Discussion N Reprint: its Effect on the Game
- Thread starter Gible06
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I think it should have been left in expanded. We need more draw support in standard but not N. My personal belief is that we are in the XY Block, and we shouldn't have trainers from BLW. (Specifically Supporters) Maybe a support that has two options like Giovanni's Scheme, where you can Maybe like Discard one Card, shuffle draw 6, and Discard three Cards Shuffle Draw 6 and your Opponent Shuffles draw 3. You know, something along those lines. Probably not that powerful but, something other than a supporter we have had in standard for the last almost 5 years.
N is a nice addition to several new decks that could use a m0re predictable shuffle draw supporter with some disruption added to it's effect. I believe it allows for a more diverse format even though the character on the supporter does not seem to fit that well from a storyline perspective.
The thing is though, it hasn't been an addition to several decks, its been around for almost 5 years now. We need new cards to play with and to build with. I really like Delinquent and Judge Because they are disruption, but they also make you really think about when is best to play them. N has been around for so long, you don't even have to think when it would be a good play.
The number of different effects that can be given to supporters is limited. I would not say that N requires no thinking at all. In fact an early N can even help your opponent out a lot instead of disrupt her/him. However, most of us already have several years of experience on when to use N and when to restrain from using it in order to draw and disruot at he same time. This may lead to the impression that N requires little consideration to be used. For the reason outlined above I would disagree on that premise. N is a double-edged sword. For instance it's draw power depends on the deck you are using. If you use a spread deck N will provide a stable card draw for quite some time. By contrast, faster decks may get less and less out of N in terms of draw power as the game advances. In addition, the draw power of N also depends on the deck you are facing. If you are facing a heavy Pokémon Ex centered deck N will loose it's draw power faster since you take more prizes per knock out. By contrast, it will retain it's draw power longer when you are facing a deck centered around non-Ex Pokémon. Keep in mind that we got a lot of good non-Ex attackers in the last three sets and Pokémon Ex are much less dominant in decks than they were at the start of the XY block. The last three XY sets seem to be centered around Pokemon Ex decks vs. non-Ex decks. N fits this theme from my pouint of view and there are decks and situations in which I would prefer Judge or Ace Trainer over N. I believe that N is a decent addition to our arsenal of disruptive draw supporters. I do not think that he will be a stable 4-off in every deck like before.
As good as it is for the format, it shows how unoriginal PCL is being. The last few sets have had so many reprints from BW it's not even funny. I hate how they can't think of a card that could replace as N as a good Supporter card. For example, how about discard 2 from the hand and draw 6? It's not that hard, but they choose to keep their 'love affair' with BW. If they really wanted so many cards they should have only done expanded or banned certain cards like YGO or Magic.
I'm really happy to see N reprint, it balances the game and can be used by the loosing player as a protection when he got 4 prizes left and the opponent with only 2 and the Lysandre/VS Seeker necessary in hand waiting for easy 2 prizes to close the game. Besides, it's really helpful to avoid a deckout too, by shuffling your entire hand and drawing only 2 cards (and makes the opponent do the same make it balanced).
I've noticed that the people disagreeing with N's reprinting are generally (not all, but just generally) people who think the card is broken. And while it's certainly good, it's nowhere near a level that can be considered broken.
N is literally what the Standard format needed: decent hand-refreshing Supporters. Judge just didn't cut it because it wasn't actually useful at the end of the game, and Professor Birch's Observations and Shauna are both terrible in general.
As for originality, that of course can be argued, but I think a reprint here was necessary (although I wouldn't have been completely against a reprint under a different name).
N is literally what the Standard format needed: decent hand-refreshing Supporters. Judge just didn't cut it because it wasn't actually useful at the end of the game, and Professor Birch's Observations and Shauna are both terrible in general.
As for originality, that of course can be argued, but I think a reprint here was necessary (although I wouldn't have been completely against a reprint under a different name).
N + Octillery(BKT) + 1 prize N side and 2 prizes non-N side + No EXes N side = Disruption AND prep for next turn Lysandre for game by charging up active to deliver the pick = a nasty combo!
^ On second thought, Octillery might be an N-blunter... If N is used by one player, and the other's Octillery uses its ability, the chances of N usage failing to stop the game-ending Lysandre could increase(1 card off N vs. 1 card off N turned into 5 off of ability) to a more probable slice...
^ If you think N is broken in favor of the N user, hear this: Now we have Octillery to blunt the said broken late-game advantage in favor of the N user, which is why I believe this is a different game than it was in BW: Sure, it was "broken" in BW, but that is not the case in XY if more people use Octillery to go along w/ shaymin-ex(for a faster start) instead of solely shaymin-ex...
^ On second thought, Octillery might be an N-blunter... If N is used by one player, and the other's Octillery uses its ability, the chances of N usage failing to stop the game-ending Lysandre could increase(1 card off N vs. 1 card off N turned into 5 off of ability) to a more probable slice...
^ If you think N is broken in favor of the N user, hear this: Now we have Octillery to blunt the said broken late-game advantage in favor of the N user, which is why I believe this is a different game than it was in BW: Sure, it was "broken" in BW, but that is not the case in XY if more people use Octillery to go along w/ shaymin-ex(for a faster start) instead of solely shaymin-ex...
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You've actually completely misread my post. I am in perfect agreement that N is healthy for the format, and is not in anyway broken. It wasn't even broken in the BW-era, it was just a good card given the other limited draw options.
You also mention that N's release means that Octillery BKT is better than Shaymin EX. This is also completely wrong. Shaymin EX is much easier to get out (since it's a Basic Pokemon), draws you more cards, and can be a viable attacker in some matchups. Against N, Shaymin EX is still superior, since it's an out to your one/two card hand being dead.
N shouldn't even be crippling at the end of the game if you've thinned your deck properly, unless you've overextended, which wouldn't come under the fault of N being too powerful now, would it?
I wasn't directing my post at you, but rather, the many others that said it's broken(if only in the article thread, which is a realm outside of this thread), and after this, I don't know what else to say...
It's situational. Shaymin-ex's set up draws you more cards at start, but as it's an on-bench-putdown ability, the effect can only be used again once shaymin-ex goes off-bench and out-of-play, whether AZ, super scoop up, among other methods to allow it to do so. Meanwhile, Octillery's ability can be once-per-turn, without need to get it off bench in order to reuse ability, and in a game of N-to-1, sometimes you can't find the card needed to get shaymin-ex off bench to use its putdown-activated ability, which is what I meant by "we have Octillery to blunt the said broken late-game advantage in favor of the N user". Late-game, if sky return is used, what if shaymin-ex, or even AZ, is N-to-1'd back into deck? What if you didn't draw shaymin-ex via topdeck, let alone the card needed to either use sky return or simply get shaymin-ex out-of-play to use set up again? That's what Octillery is for: To get cards when your post-N hand is too limited and consists only of card(s) that don't get shaymin-ex out of play, let alone get the VS Seeker + Lysandre to win... It's a pain to set up, though, so better to have it ready before the N-to-1 point than having to set it up at that point of game(currently, it's hard to set up another way to get cards w/o ending your turn unless the source is another basic, and currently, shaymin-ex is the only basic printed that has an ability that allows you to draw up to an acceptable amount of cards. So if one player N'd to 1, and can't get the card needed to fix his/her predicament, if he/she doesn't already have an evolved pokemon in-play(and ready) that activates a similar job, regardless of whether the player has the cards needed from hand to use said job, then he/she likely lost). Or else, it's hard to get it evolved unless it's top-decked...
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It's not situational at all: Shaymin EX is just better than Octillery in every way. Shaymin EX allows you to be aggressive T1/2, has a surprisingly useful attack that KOs a lot of non-EX Basic Pokemon that have a decent impact on the meta or allows you to get perfect math, and is often a trap for less experienced players who choose to Lysandre it prematurely for two Prizes.I wasn't directing my post at you, but rather, the many others that said it's broken(if only in the article thread, which is a realm outside of this thread), and after this, I don't know what else to say...
It's situational. Shaymin-ex's set up draws you more cards at start, but as it's an on-bench-putdown ability, the effect can only be used again once shaymin-ex goes off-bench and out-of-play, whether AZ, super scoop up, among other methods to allow it to do so. Meanwhile, Octillery's ability can be once-per-turn, without need to get it off bench in order to reuse ability, and in a game of N-to-1, sometimes you can't find the card needed to get shaymin-ex off bench to use its putdown-activated ability, which is what I meant by "we have Octillery to blunt the said broken late-game advantage in favor of the N user". Late-game, if sky return is used, what if shaymin-ex, or even AZ, is N-to-1'd back into deck? What if you didn't draw shaymin-ex via topdeck, let alone the card needed to either use sky return or simply get shaymin-ex out-of-play to use set up again? That's what Octillery is for: To get cards when your post-N hand is too limited and consists only of card(s) that don't get shaymin-ex out of play, let alone get the VS Seeker + Lysandre to win... It's a pain to set up, though, so better to have it ready before the N-to-1 point than having to set it up at that point of game(currently, it's hard to set up another way to get cards w/o ending your turn unless the source is another basic, and currently, shaymin-ex is the only basic printed that has an ability that allows you to draw up to an acceptable amount of cards. So if one player N'd to 1, and can't get the card needed to fix his/her predicament, if he/she doesn't already have an evolved pokemon in-play(and ready) that activates a similar job, regardless of whether the player has the cards needed from hand to use said job, then he/she likely lost). Or else, it's hard to get it evolved unless it's top-decked...
Octillery, on the other hand, is more for stable draw in decks with more moving pieces, hence why it's played with Gallade BKT. With all other good decks though, stable draw is found through their Item-based draw engine, or with Korrina in combination with Lucario EX or the like. Octillery also draws less cards at one time, and is much easier to OHKO.
You bring up a point about it sometimes being impossible to draw your out to the use of Set Up, and while that's correct, with proper deck-thinning, it's very rare that it happens. In fact, my point was more referring to having the Shaymin EX/AZ in deck to reuse it (remember, you really only want one Shaymin EX down at a time, with your second typically used to reach for the game-winning Lysandre).
There's reasons why Shaymin EX is used a lot more than Octillery BKT, and those reasons are outlined above.
My opinion...
I don't think N is crazy-broken. However, I do think it is very unhealthy to the game. True, Octillery is there to protect 'N to one' situations, but I have a different point to why it's unhealthy: Its powerful hand disruption that nearly everyone plays makes players unable to think turns in advance. With N back, you might as well not even care about what's in your hand to start with - it is always bound to be completely different each turn.
N, to me, reduces the amount of skill in playing the game. Hand management is much like controlling your destiny, and it takes a lot of thinking to how you should play your hand - which resources to use, which to save, how to anticipate opponents actions turn by turn, and how your hand reacts to your next draw. With N back, and with everyone bound to use it, those skills become so much less relevant, as your hand is so easily exploited all the time, trying to practice these skills might as well be in vain.
Now, people may think that Judge and Ace Trainer are among the ranks of N, but the chances of people threatening to use those cards over and over to no end is a rare occurance: Ace Trainer requires you to be behind in prizes, and Judge players often run the risk of hoping that the 4 cards they draw have another draw supporter to use after playing it. N nets you 6 cards around the start, which is quite a good hand to keep playing with, and it mixes up your opponent's hand in the process. No requirements needed either.
Personally, I think a little hand disruption here and there is a good thing to keep the game interesting. But when this kind of disruption is used so much to the point that players pretty much give up practicing hand management in their games, it becomes really detrimental to the art of playing. And to me, N tips the balance to hand disruption way too much.
I don't think N is crazy-broken. However, I do think it is very unhealthy to the game. True, Octillery is there to protect 'N to one' situations, but I have a different point to why it's unhealthy: Its powerful hand disruption that nearly everyone plays makes players unable to think turns in advance. With N back, you might as well not even care about what's in your hand to start with - it is always bound to be completely different each turn.
N, to me, reduces the amount of skill in playing the game. Hand management is much like controlling your destiny, and it takes a lot of thinking to how you should play your hand - which resources to use, which to save, how to anticipate opponents actions turn by turn, and how your hand reacts to your next draw. With N back, and with everyone bound to use it, those skills become so much less relevant, as your hand is so easily exploited all the time, trying to practice these skills might as well be in vain.
Now, people may think that Judge and Ace Trainer are among the ranks of N, but the chances of people threatening to use those cards over and over to no end is a rare occurance: Ace Trainer requires you to be behind in prizes, and Judge players often run the risk of hoping that the 4 cards they draw have another draw supporter to use after playing it. N nets you 6 cards around the start, which is quite a good hand to keep playing with, and it mixes up your opponent's hand in the process. No requirements needed either.
Personally, I think a little hand disruption here and there is a good thing to keep the game interesting. But when this kind of disruption is used so much to the point that players pretty much give up practicing hand management in their games, it becomes really detrimental to the art of playing. And to me, N tips the balance to hand disruption way too much.
I have mixed feelings. It's great disruption, it's good draw in every situation except when you are ahead. It's often useful to have a shuffle-draw option in your deck. So for all these reasons it's a very good supporter. (I don't see why people say it's broken though.)
But I really enjoy being able to plan ahead for my next turn with some consistency. And not having to shuffle my deck quite so much. Just for this reason I have been enjoying playing in Standard a lot.
But I really enjoy being able to plan ahead for my next turn with some consistency. And not having to shuffle my deck quite so much. Just for this reason I have been enjoying playing in Standard a lot.
The last thing that N is to the Standard format is unhealthy. Clearly you don't know how rare it is for a player to come behind and win in the Standard format. With N, that is made much more likely (theoretically, it shouldn't change much, but still, it's an increased chance nonetheless).
N also doesn't stop you from thinking further ahead in the game, either. N is just something you actually have to account for. Really, if being N'd scares you at any point, you've probably failed to set up the board properly.
N does not at all reduce the skill in the game, it actually increases the amount a player needs. Knowing whether or not to disrupt your opponent's hand rather than draw more cards, or shuffle your hand in while your opponent's hand might be dead (mostly because your hand is full of resources that you don't want to discard early) is another layer of skill added to the format, allowing players to play mindgames with opponents (similar to Power Spray shenanigans during the SP era).
Of course you're right that hand disruption is a good thing, but N does not at all remove the requirement of managing resources better. In fact, it should amplify this need, since you would need to know exactly what you need to keep and what to discard when that inevitable N-to-one or N-to-two does happen.
The only real issue I have with N / Judge is when the opponent plays it during the very first turn and doesn't even give you a chance to play out your hand. I guess you could argue that by doing that they're slightly gimping themselves into drawing less cards, but it's such a throw-off and it feels far more unfair than anywhere later into the game.
I personally like the N reprint. We needed another good draw supporter and just having Shaymin EX and Sycamore doesn't really cut it.
I just don't really like the fact that first they made Ace Trainer, then that got replaced by Judge, and now here's N to replace Judge.
I just don't really like the fact that first they made Ace Trainer, then that got replaced by Judge, and now here's N to replace Judge.
I like how people are whining about N but the same people who do that claim 2005 was the best era of Pokemon. There was a staple in every deck and the effect was this:
Each player shuffles his or her hand into his or her deck. Then, each player counts his or her Prize cards left and draws up to that many cards. (You draw your cards first.)
With first turn item locks in a lot of decks for standard, N will be needed. For example, getting N to one card when playing against Villeplum will be tough on Vileplume decks. N has allowed a chance for come back. N also will be a great addition to those lock decks as it will control an opponents hands.
I do admit, among the cards in pokemon where I've lost games, when I had the clear advantage to win are N and Hypno Laser/Virbank. If you have watched a opponent crawl back from one prize card win due to a N and a couple hammers, it leaves you a bit salty. Though it appears to be a good draw supporter, N enhances a defensive style more so than an offensive because it is based on prize card count.
I believe this card will mute, (ACE Trainer, Birch, Judge, and Shauna).
I do admit, among the cards in pokemon where I've lost games, when I had the clear advantage to win are N and Hypno Laser/Virbank. If you have watched a opponent crawl back from one prize card win due to a N and a couple hammers, it leaves you a bit salty. Though it appears to be a good draw supporter, N enhances a defensive style more so than an offensive because it is based on prize card count.
I believe this card will mute, (ACE Trainer, Birch, Judge, and Shauna).
It only increases the amount of skill to a certain extent compared the amount of luck is needed to play that hand. Sure, you can put in to account that N is going to be played, but it boils down to luck on how well your hand is drawn compared to your opponents. If they N you down to one card and they have six, chances are either you're so far ahead it doesn't matter, or they've stalled you out to the point to where you are now the one trying to get somewhere. In this aspect is where luck is outweighed by skill because no matter how good you are, if you are forced to shuffle and draw one card, depending your deck size, it can easily cost you the game you should have won, even if you both are drawing the same amoutn of cards. While I do agree something is needed for draw support, I do not believe N was the answer to this.