XY Making Ice Types More Useful

[Bolt the Cat]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

I think reviewing it entirely would be too hard, and only a temporary solution; after all, every other generation brings a TM list change. The more reasonable compromise (if you don't want to outright lose TMs) would be:

-status and normal type moves: all types
-same type moves: same type pokemon.
-a select few pokemon would learn other type moves if they make sense, but on a restricted case-by-case basis (golurk with fly, etc)

I was thinking along these lines anyway, but it wouldn't be as effective without wiping the slate clean first and eliminating some of the more powerful TMs from most Pokemon's movesets.

But I still say that removing them outright is best; HMs could finally be replaced by field moves, egg moves could be learned by pokemon tutors in your team (as TMs work now) instead of having to be born with (thus giving a bit more of coverage to pokemon, but not the insane amount TMs give). It's just a much more sensible and elegant solution, and it would keep a lot of pokemon who don't have extensive coverage from being outclassed by the most powerful pokemon with best coverage.

I think getting rid of TMs would do more harm than good, some Pokemon actually benefit from them especially if their level up moveset isn't as great. Plus field moves would be highly inaccessible without HMs.

 

[professorlight]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

You do have a basis for your argument when you say that seeing the same pokemon over and over again competitively is boring and it starts to repeat itself. However, the reason people use them is because it works. Your arguing that because a pokemon is really good and has a wide move pool, people will use it more often. Of course they'll use it more often because it's what works. I do get tired of seeing Greninjas on teams, even though I have one too, but it just doesn't make sense to say that getting rid of TMs or narrowing the move pool of pokemon would work either.

I never said it was illogical to use them; I said it stood to reason; but that does not make it more fair, or more interesting, now does it?

Then, once you put out a dragon type, and you know it can only know moves by leveling up/of its type,then you can put out a fairy or ice, confident that'll you'll win.

And you can't do that now? didn't you say before that coverage didn't remove weaknesses?
You would have the same degree of confidence in this new paradigm than you would in the old paradigm. No. you would be even less confident, because even in this TM-ruled paradigm, only a handful of moves, TM or natural, are used by the same pokemon, because they work, and you already know they do.
Doesn't smogon have all those fancy recipes for movesets, EV/IV spread and items in their website? if everything you can find is catalogued, tested and tried, and you, as a diligent little competitive battler, did the due study of counters,checks and countercounters, where is the surprise? the surprise doesn't exist, because the TM pokemon are as predictable as the non-TM pokemon, and even then, not using TMs would force new strategies and new approaches, using the bigger pool of possibilities for pokemon you would now have, including different risk-benefit evaluations, like using a weaker coverage move instead of a potentially helpful status, or strategies involving the entire team, or the pokemon individually, or just changing your team every battle.


That would make battles more repetitive than what it is now! Type-match ups would be your ticket to victory right away; by adding TMs and pokemon that can learn many moves, then things start to get challenging. I made this point before, but I'll stress it again; THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A POKEMON THAT CAN BEAT ALL OTHER TYPES! No team is perfect.

You don't need to yell. Nor to twist my words; I never said any pokemon, no matter how good coverage they might have, is perfect; I did say "unfair", you might remember; unfair to the other, perfectly good pokemon, but without amazing coverage, and unfair to your possible opponent.

Competitive battlers pretend the game is about skill. That if you lose, it was because you were not capable enough, that the system is fair, based on each player's skill. It is not.
It's about chance; the random chance of having the right moves, the right team and your opponent having the wrong ones. You said that everyone uses the same pokemon because it works. Then? where is the wiggle room? the skill? if you'll make always the right, logical, popular and consensuated choices, if you're an obedient part of the collective overmind of competitive battling, why do you lose? because the opponent was just as you, but he was in that case favored by circumstance; in each battle, with each logical choice you're throwing a million dice, hoping to get the right numbers to win; do it illogically, you have a good chance of losing (you can still win, though, see: twitch plays pokemon). Do it flawlessly logically, you might have a chance to win. Never certainty, the world doesn't work like that. Skill is irrelevant, and your choices don't make much difference, but you can only hope they do.

Now, would you rather have a chance at not winning using 6 out of 456 pokemon, or using 6 out of 184?

You brought the banning of mega kangaskhan, and you described parental bond as "OP"; now, it wouldn't be OP if it had counters, right? as you said, no pokemon are perfect. But you still couldn't stop that kangaskhan. There was nothing you could do about it, your battle was decided the minute the opponent megaevolved, and not all the coverage or all the skill in the world could save you. That's why mega kangaskhan was banned, right? If smogon is the place you go to find all the strategies and counterstrategies, what? they couldn't find a counter to mega kangaskhan? not entrainment? gastro acid? simple beam? double team? (oh, wait, they banned double team because it was luck based) Trace?... does kangaskhan outspeed all of their users? paralysis? maybe they were right in banning it, it seems it would destroy the fair environment of competitive play, by being unfair to whoever doesn't have a kangaskhan.

Hey, I just had the best idea! If you want to win, have a mega kangaskhan in the team! there! problem solved! you might recognize this as the famous "smogon university problem resolution system: "if something's good, toss it everywhere!""

You can only get one, either there are things that are OP, and by definition, unfair, or everything is imperfect and has a workaround by using strategy, logic, skill and the world is a nice, fair and neat place.
If you recognize that one thing is OP, why not recognize when another thing is OP? is it convenience? is the world perfect because it works for you? Or is it maybe because we're talking a more different, more subtle kind of overpowering here? this is not the obvious "curbstomp your whole team with only one pokemon" problem, this is the "band of 40 odd pokemon curbstomp band of 300 odd pokemon without so much as breaking a sweat". But of course, since you can apply smogon's problem resolution system here, unlike in the kangaskhan example, everything is good, because you can still choose from those 40 uber badasses to make your teams, and good riddance to those weaklings who didn't make the cut.

Forget the effect in the metagame; the unfairness here is that a fistful of pokemon outclass at least 90 percent of the other pokemon, part because of BST, part because of typing, part because of abilities, and part because of coverage.
Now, it's unrealistic of me to expect a perfectly balanced environment, I get that, and there is variety there too; garchomp will still be a beast, coverage or not, and it will continue to outclass that 90 percent of pokemon, but reducing that fistful of pokemon's coverage options would give a chance to other pokemon to be part of teams, in new ways that could only happen because now there are no other pokemon that can do it better, or that can do other things, in addition to that thing they lost now, or because this pokemon was blessed by amazing coverage but lousy stats, and is now much more valuable.

It's not about weakening the strong pokemon; it's about bridging a massive strength gap.
This very thread started with changes that would empower the ice type, and several suggested to make ice strong against X, make X weak to ice, etcetera. this is the same thing. You can't strengthen a type without taking away another type's strength, making it weaker than it was, and the same happens here.

One argument is the other; if you argue that TMs give pokemon fair coverage and that it is not cheap they outclassing so many other pokemon, you're also saying that the ice type is fine as a weak type because to make it stronger you must take strength away from some other type and that's unfair. Look at the fairy type; in one simple, elegant, pink stroke, GF weakened the overpowered dragon types and gave both the underused poison and steel types newfound relevance. I'm proposing the same thing, but at a per-species level; there will still be OP pokemon, and weak pokemon as well, but it will be a lot better and preferable than what happens now.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Teaching Pokemon moves that take out weaknesses is a strategy. By arguing that only same-type pokemon can learn a TM, the game would very easy to predict, as you can send a pokemon that can easily take out the other one without worrying about being knocked out. Teaching Gravler Flamethrower, for example, gets rid of the Grass type threat. However, there are multiple types that can take him out, and that move only gets rid of one of them. Teaching Dragons Steel and Fire moves doesn't get rid of their dragon type weakness. You can argue that some pokemon are OP, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to fight back.

In and of itself, is it a problem? Not really. But combined with other things like stats that could make a Pokemon OP, it becomes a problem. How are you supposed to beat a Garchomp for example if it can simply run Fire Fang and Iron Head and end up outspeeding/overpowering whatever Ice or Fairy type you try to throw against it?

I've been in situations where I'm up against a Water-Fairy, and I can't beat it because I didn't have an Electric or Steel type on me. That doesn't make it OP. That just means I didn't plan well enough. With strategy, any Pokemon can be taken out, no matter what it's move pool is.

That's an entirely different situation. If you lost because you didn't have the right type of Pokemon for the job, that's your fault. I'm talking more about when you have a type advantage anyway but you still lose anyway because the opponent can simply take out any type it's weak against before you can even put up a fight. And that's why we need a reboot, to nerf those Pokemon's coverage and rebuild it from scratch in a way that gives them a more exploitable weakness.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Moved to VG General

 

[largellama123]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Teaching Pokemon moves that take out weaknesses is a strategy. By arguing that only same-type pokemon can learn a TM, the game would very easy to predict, as you can send a pokemon that can easily take out the other one without worrying about being knocked out. Teaching Gravler Flamethrower, for example, gets rid of the Grass type threat. However, there are multiple types that can take him out, and that move only gets rid of one of them. Teaching Dragons Steel and Fire moves doesn't get rid of their dragon type weakness. You can argue that some pokemon are OP, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to fight back.

In and of itself, is it a problem? Not really. But combined with other things like stats that could make a Pokemon OP, it becomes a problem. How are you supposed to beat a Garchomp for example if it can simply run Fire Fang and Iron Head and end up outspeeding/overpowering whatever Ice or Fairy type you try to throw against it?

I've been in situations where I'm up against a Water-Fairy, and I can't beat it because I didn't have an Electric or Steel type on me. That doesn't make it OP. That just means I didn't plan well enough. With strategy, any Pokemon can be taken out, no matter what it's move pool is.

That's an entirely different situation. If you lost because you didn't have the right type of Pokemon for the job, that's your fault. I'm talking more about when you have a type advantage anyway but you still lose anyway because the opponent can simply take out any type it's weak against before you can even put up a fight. And that's why we need a reboot, to nerf those Pokemon's coverage and rebuild it from scratch in a way that gives them a more exploitable weakness.

All the points you made are great and I agree with them to an extent. But by bringing in stats into the equation, that brings up raising the Pokemon, both EV and IV training. It's clear that some Pokemon are defense-oriented, and others are speed-oriented, and that would be quite hard to change. And when you bring up the situation where a Pokemon can sweep through your team despite type advantages, it is unfair. But there are other Pokemon with wide type coverage that can take out those Pokemon too. For example, if you put out a Greninja that has been trained for speed and special attack, and you can Ice Beam that Garchomp you were talking about. Since there are wide move pools, there are Pokemon that can take out their weaknesses. However, due to that, there are other Pokemon that can combat those as well without suffering from the type advantage. Everything evens itself out by giving Pokemon very wide move pools. Just like I mentioned before, learning moves only of their type can be blandish and makes for predictable battles. There are some messed up TMs, but it doesn't need a complete reboot.

 

[NoDice]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Well, the last page or so has been about debating new types, TM usage and other what not, which included many good points, but I feel are a bit too complicated for them to be reasonably executed (barring a new type). Hear me out for just a second, though. Gen 6 gave us one awesome Ice upgrade, and honestly probably the best its had since the beginning of the games- Freeze Dry.

What if more moves were created that functioned just like this for Ice types? Since, to my knowledge and correct me if Im wrong, only true Ice types can learn Freeze Dry- adding more dual coverage moves would not only increase Ice's versatility, but its viability as well.

Imagine a move called, lets say, Cold Steel, that hits Fairy types super effectively? Or even "Hypothermic Air" which could hit Fighting or Fire types for 2 times the damage. I know this is way off of the current conversation, buts its just an idea. Ice types could greatly benefit from a boost in versatility, and I think this is definitely one way to go about helping them all around. Take Glaceon for example, whose stats aren't all that bad barring HP and speed. Slap a couple specialty Ice coverage moves on it, and suddenly, its not so harmless and can actually threaten other types that would other wise wall or crush it. Just food for thought.

 

[largellama123]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Well, the last page or so has been about debating new types, TM usage and other what not, which included many good points, but I feel are a bit too complicated for them to be reasonably executed (barring a new type). Hear me out for just a second, though. Gen 6 gave us one awesome Ice upgrade, and honestly probably the best its had since the beginning of the games- Freeze Dry.

What if more moves were created that functioned just like this for Ice types? Since, to my knowledge and correct me if Im wrong, only true Ice types can learn Freeze Dry- adding more dual coverage moves would not only increase Ice's versatility, but its viability as well.

Imagine a move called, lets say, Cold Steel, that hits Fairy types super effectively? Or even "Hypothermic Air" which could hit Fighting or Fire types for 2 times the damage. I know this is way off of the current conversation, buts its just an idea. Ice types could greatly benefit from a boost in versatility, and I think this is definitely one way to go about helping them all around. Take Glaceon for example, whose stats aren't all that bad barring HP and speed. Slap a couple specialty Ice coverage moves on it, and suddenly, its not so harmless and can actually threaten other types that would other wise wall or crush it. Just food for thought.

I really agree with what your saying. Having Type Exclusive Moves would balance things out, especially for the weaker types like Ice and Bug. Making a move only pure ice types could learn would definitely level the playing field and make for a more interesting battle.

 

[xxashxx]

RE: Ice-types

I suppose that's true. However, sometimes I left the battling running more than three minutes because I was distracted by something else in RL. It happens often. Hehe.

Ice-types are so dangnabbit squishy, so I though shields/debuffs will gap the Ice-type weaknesses. I love Ice Beam but the 10% of freezing an opponent isn't that useful. In fact, they should create a freeze status. Ice-types have 4 (very common) weaknesses and one resistance. A frozen status wouldn't make them so OPed. They're not steel-types, you know? There's only one type that's completely immune to a frozen status which obviously are the Fire-types.

So like Will-o-Wisp, but with Ice typing?

Also, Fire types thaw out faster, they're not immune to being Frozen.

Talk about thawing out fast. Once I was testing a hacked Pokemon just for fun with someone and my Charizard knew Sacred Fire. I knew it was hacked on just for fun. I used the move on a Froslass that my friend had and he used Ice beam. It froze me solid and then it was my turn. The attack defrosted my Charizard and KO'd his Pokemon and he thought he raised his Pokemon wrong because I knew it was well EV trained. It was a critical hit too. It was a well placed attack but I still lost the battle.

 

[Mitja]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Well, the last page or so has been about debating new types, TM usage and other what not, which included many good points, but I feel are a bit too complicated for them to be reasonably executed (barring a new type). Hear me out for just a second, though. Gen 6 gave us one awesome Ice upgrade, and honestly probably the best its had since the beginning of the games- Freeze Dry.

What if more moves were created that functioned just like this for Ice types? Since, to my knowledge and correct me if Im wrong, only true Ice types can learn Freeze Dry- adding more dual coverage moves would not only increase Ice's versatility, but its viability as well.

Imagine a move called, lets say, Cold Steel, that hits Fairy types super effectively? Or even "Hypothermic Air" which could hit Fighting or Fire types for 2 times the damage. I know this is way off of the current conversation, buts its just an idea. Ice types could greatly benefit from a boost in versatility, and I think this is definitely one way to go about helping them all around. Take Glaceon for example, whose stats aren't all that bad barring HP and speed. Slap a couple specialty Ice coverage moves on it, and suddenly, its not so harmless and can actually threaten other types that would other wise wall or crush it. Just food for thought.

You're buffing the offenses (which aren't gonna stay exclusive to the type for long anyway), which are more than fine.

 

[NoDice]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Well, the last page or so has been about debating new types, TM usage and other what not, which included many good points, but I feel are a bit too complicated for them to be reasonably executed (barring a new type). Hear me out for just a second, though. Gen 6 gave us one awesome Ice upgrade, and honestly probably the best its had since the beginning of the games- Freeze Dry.

What if more moves were created that functioned just like this for Ice types? Since, to my knowledge and correct me if Im wrong, only true Ice types can learn Freeze Dry- adding more dual coverage moves would not only increase Ice's versatility, but its viability as well.

Imagine a move called, lets say, Cold Steel, that hits Fairy types super effectively? Or even "Hypothermic Air" which could hit Fighting or Fire types for 2 times the damage. I know this is way off of the current conversation, buts its just an idea. Ice types could greatly benefit from a boost in versatility, and I think this is definitely one way to go about helping them all around. Take Glaceon for example, whose stats aren't all that bad barring HP and speed. Slap a couple specialty Ice coverage moves on it, and suddenly, its not so harmless and can actually threaten other types that would other wise wall or crush it. Just food for thought.

You're buffing the offenses (which aren't gonna stay exclusive to the type for long anyway), which are more than fine.

Yes, thats true, but Im saying that they should give them Ice typed dual coverage moves to increase their offensive presence(which would in turn increase wariness of switch ins with supposedly sure counters and have them be threatened). There are many Ice types that actually have decent bulk and can stand in battle so that was just an alternative suggestion to the other (less feasible in my opinion) options being discussed.

Also, instead of type chart rebalancing, they could add special hold items that actually ABSORB a hit (unlike Moss, Snowball, Absorb Bulb etc, which doesnt negate damage) and boost stats that Ice types (as well as any other type) could utilize.

However, I did point out in another thread that I would agree with an extra resistance or two for Ice types, especially Water. Now that I think about it, perhaps Flying would be a good resist for Ice, logically speaking.

All in all though, I think its much more realistic to expect GF to just simply give Ice some new moves over a second type chart adjustment within 2 sequential generations.

 

[Mitja]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

You're buffing the offenses (which aren't gonna stay exclusive to the type for long anyway), which are more than fine.

Yes, thats true, but Im saying that they should give them Ice typed dual coverage moves to increase their offensive presence(which would in turn increase wariness of switch ins with supposedly sure counters and have them be threatened). There are many Ice types that actually have decent bulk and can stand in battle so that was just an alternative suggestion to the other (less feasible in my opinion) options being discussed.

Also, instead of type chart rebalancing, they could add special hold items that actually ABSORB a hit (unlike Moss, Snowball, Absorb Bulb etc, which doesnt negate damage) and boost stats that Ice types (as well as any other type) could utilize.

However, I did point out in another thread that I would agree with an extra resistance or two for Ice types, especially Water. Now that I think about it, perhaps Flying would be a good resist for Ice, logically speaking.

All in all though, I think its much more realistic to expect GF to just simply give Ice some new moves over a second type chart adjustment within 2 sequential generations.

It's definitely realistic (and would probably be more the result of gamefreak randomly adding cool stuff rather than result of the intention to help ice types), but my posts in threads like these won't change a bit even if they did just that. /:

 

[Their Goominess]

RE: Ice-types

So like Will-o-Wisp, but with Ice typing?

Also, Fire types thaw out faster, they're not immune to being Frozen.

Talk about thawing out fast. Once I was testing a hacked Pokemon just for fun with someone and my Charizard knew Sacred Fire. I knew it was hacked on just for fun. I used the move on a Froslass that my friend had and he used Ice beam. It froze me solid and then it was my turn. The attack defrosted my Charizard and KO'd his Pokemon and he thought he raised his Pokemon wrong because I knew it was well EV trained. It was a critical hit too. It was a well placed attack but I still lost the battle.

I don't think Fire types -as a type- thaw any faster than any other type, however every Fire type attack (and Scald) automatically defrosts the user/target. (so that means that in terms of movesets they'll more than likely have something to automatically cure them)

Although if there were to be a type (other than Ice) that has an immunity to freezing, Fire would definitely be the no.1 candidate.

 

[xxashxx]

What about when a Fire type move is used while you are frozen? Doesn't that have a 10% chance of thawing you out quickly? I have heard fire type moves can improve your chances of thawing out faster but am not sure if this is true. I thought fire type moves always thawed you out faster in FR/LG and forward? I know in the older games those moves did nothing to thaw you out but as far as I know now they do. Is this true or false?

 

[Their Goominess]

What about when a Fire type move is used while you are frozen? Doesn't that have a 10% chance of thawing you out quickly? I have heard fire type moves can improve your chances of thawing out faster but am not sure if this is true. I thought fire type moves always thawed you out faster in FR/LG and forward? I know in the older games those moves did nothing to thaw you out but as far as I know now they do. Is this true or false?

I'm not really sure what you just said.
Fire type move used on a frozen target = insta defrost
according to bulba, only Flame Wheel, Sacred Fire, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, and Scald are the only moves 100% guaranteed to thaw the user

 

[xxashxx]

What I was trying to say is doesn't Fire type moves thaw your Pokemon if you are frozen? I know in the old games previous to FR/LG you never could thaw your Pokemon out. I thought Fire type moves had a 10% chance of thawing your Pokemon? Is this true or false?

 

[Mitja]

What I was trying to say is doesn't Fire type moves thaw your Pokemon if you are frozen? I know in the old games previous to FR/LG you never could thaw your Pokemon out. I thought Fire type moves had a 10% chance of thawing your Pokemon? Is this true or false?

Did you even read what his goominess wrote?

Those moves thaw you out, other than that, Fire types have no extra mechanics regarding freezing.

 

[xxashxx]

Yeah I read his post but I was not sure what percentage if any thaws out your Pokemon. Before he posted the moves in his post I always thought all fire type moves thawed your Pokemon in all games FR/LG and forward. I know in the older games they had no effect as far as I know. The only old games I truly played were the stadium games so I am not sure what effects moves back then compared to now. Sorry for the confusion.