Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[Mariano11887]

I believe he said himself that he started with the knowledge of his own Farewell Ability.

If this is the case (I haven't checked it) then it's not possible. The ability I used on Night 2 explicitely says that I got the Role PM of my target (Keeper), in which the Farewell Ability is hidden. Plus, the result I got states that he can use his Active Ability on himself, which makes no sense if he already knows what his Farewell Ability does.

@Mariano Did you claim being a jack-of-all-trades variant?

Yes, I am.

I really cannot see why I need to justify whether or not I actually am a bomb to you? Or why you feel like I need to? Like, the ability could not exist at all. Or I could have used my head and put two and two together knowing that my character is a political leader thing with an ability named "Blank Game" and took a stab that "ohey that means anybody that kills me is affected negatively" and rolled with it until I could confirm it.
If you have a case, make it. You've done nothing but ask questions about my bomb ability for the last two days.

Why I feel you need to clarify where did you get the data that you are a bomb? Because I scanned you N2 and the bomb isn't in your role PM. D3 I proposed it and Luis made me see that you could have used your ability on yourself N0 and determined you are a bomb in your Farewell Ability. But now that I realized that you targeted NP N0 and not you, there is no logical way you could know for certain you are a bomb, which means one of the two possible options: 1) You lied about being a bomb. 2) I received your safe-claim as a result of my ability. Both options don't make you look good.

Now you are putting your words in doubt by saying "I really cannot see why I need to justify whether or not I actually am a bomb to you? Like, the ability could not exist at all", where in previous posts you asserted you are a bomb:

Spoiler: Quotes saying Keeper is a bomb

If the effects are random across town/scum for positive/negative effects, that does not rule out that they are /not/ random for an individual character. Meaning, say, I could learn a person's identity via their Farewell ability effects, which if it hasn't been made abundantly clear yet, I can see. And I know this is the case because my character is a bomb, which matches my flavor perfectly. So even though I don't know flavor super well, I can look up characters from PMJ's flavor and work from there. Google is my friend.

I don't believe that was the case, but I fully planned on claiming regardless. I'm a bomb. If scum kill me that's only a good thing for town anyway. Better to be in the open to give as much info as possible.

I claimed bomb yesterday already, no reason to back down from that. It's a mind game, see.

I already explained that being open about my claim allows me to easily give out whatever info I can get without having to worry about anything else. I have no reason to keep the bomb part of my ability secret, since it just makes scum think twice before killing me. If they keep me alive it's obviously better for town, so I can keep looking into Farewell abilities and alert of dangerous ones or abnormalities (like Jplap's, who has his hidden, though I suppose if he's going to be MK'd anyway then we don't need to worry about him).

I already made a case on you here, please everyone read it again.
Plus, if you are town, lying about being a bomb to avoid being lynched is only acceptable if you have an extremely good power role, which you don't have. Scum avoiding killing you means that they'll kill another townie, with a possible more powerful role than yours = hurting the town more.
In the case somewhat your bomb ability is true (which I don't see it possible), you shouldn't have claimed it so if scum kills you, you kill a scum at the same time. Exchanging one town by one scum is completely convenient for the town because we are majority.

##VOTE: Keeper of Night until I have a logical explanation of how he could possibly know about his bomb ability, as well as his behavior if that would be true.

 

[Jabberwock]

I'm quite surprised that Camo can prove he's town considering the number of apparent confo-towns already in play. Eitherway, my role is Twilight - its existence confirmed by Roz's Farewell Ability (Day 1 lynch), and later by PMJ's comment about the Twilight role, here.

Oh huh.

##UNVOTE

@Camoclone what've you got to say?

Sorry for not taking you at face value? You're not cleared and as I pointed out, lying about a dream would be a brilliant play for scum, so - yeah - I'm going to take precautions. Just as I shouldn't assume that you're town, I'm not assuming that you're scum -- in fact, I came to the conclusion that you're probably tell the truth right here.

I'll respond to this and the rest of your post, but I don't see a need to continue it after that in light of your claim.

Basically, you're not using Occam's Razor in a lot of your recent posts. Yeah, there's always the possibility that I'm lying about the dreaming thing, but if you had no reason to scumread me before that, there shouldn't be any reason to do so now.

- The first point is false - I've been considering both scenarios because you are not confo town, and especially before the claim, you were on virtually everyone's PoE.

Yeah, being on a PoE list isn't enough reason for a scumread.

- Remember that game where I defended "confo-scum" Tapu Lele? People tried to get me lynched for the same reasons: explicitly defending a confoscum, and I have the same response again: for this to make sense, you'd have to assume that a) I would take the obvious risk of looking terrible just to keep a buddy alive for one more day (okay what?) and b) my proposal made no logical sense whatsoever, and I think this is quite the opposite of the truth.

You were scum that game.

- this is WIFOM / tunnel vision. Maybe I'm just thinking about what I'm doing?

Town keeps those thoughts to themselves and only posts their conclusion. Only scum flipflops around like that, because it means they can more easily fall back on an older line of reasoning if a current one doesn't work out fsr.

Except apparently town can also do that, because you're apparently town. *shrug*

@Jabberwock Why are you assuming that Camo is town? Your point, that I am intentionally pushing a mislynch on Camo (i.e. a lynch on town), and trying to look good about it, only makes sense under the assumption that Camo is town.

I was assuming for the moment (which could change if Camo can actually clear himself) that one of you and Camo has to be scum, because I've got a strong townread of Cel for the Luis lynch. The logical course of action for each of you (if you agree with me re: Cel) is to conclude that the other is scum. Camo did that immediately, but you were flipflopping, which indicates that as scum, you'd know that he's not actually scum and you might be able to swing an extra day out of it by being lynched last.

@Jabberwock Do you have anything to report re: the oracle?

I asked whether there was a town-aligned bomb in the setup. There is. Imo Keeper's telling the truth.

##VOTE: Keeper of Night until I have a logical explanation of how he could possibly know about his bomb ability, as well as his behavior if that would be true.

That said, Keeper should respond to this.

 

[Zone Q11]

Well then. This is a lot to take in. However, what didn't change is the fact that Camo still doesn't stop pushing me. ...sigh, why am I even surprised?

Zone misquoted his safeclaim / edited it wrong.

I don't know what happened to my claim, but I did not edit it in any way.

Zone's only interest is to please.

Why are you even attacking me with these weak arguments when you were so hellbent on lynching NP Yesterday? Did you really think that making the situation worse by killing NP is a good idea? And why did you do that? Because he didn't full claim? That is simply stupid!

And then there is this:

Add Jabber to the confirmed scum list:
You learned Jabberwock's Farewell Ability permanently buffs the last player his Active Ability was used on, and further allows the Deadly Alliance's factional night kill on that night to pierce any protection their target has.

We have to be careful with when we lynch him though, he'll buff whoever the other scum is as soon as we do.

It's worth noting that Luis' flipped Farewell Ability doesn't refer to scum as the Deadly Alliance but instead as "teammates".

Why did you vote Jabber despite having realised this?

Because I wanted an answer from Jabber. Luis crumbled under similar pressure yesterday and there is no reason not to.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ZONE Q11

Might as well move on to the guy who actually slipped.

If I got it right, then what you have done so far is:
-> Attack me for my play style
-> Attack NP for being a harmless indie
-> Attack me again out of nowhere
-> Give a feint vote to see whether Jabber falls under the pressure like Luis
-> Saw that Jabber didn't get pressured and went straight back to me

Now then, I ask you: What part of these actions (except for the feint) is town-like?

bbninjas:

• keeps assuming I'm scum and is taking it to the logical extreme with weird WIFOM trains of thought
• advocated for not lynching Luis (confoscum) and rather working with him to take out NP
• covering his bases re: Camo as an alternative lynch to his own (makes sure to point out that Camo's done some townie things as well, so it doesn't look quite so bad when Camo flips and he can more easily pivot to Celever)

Camoclone:

• weird voting patterns around jplap and NP

If both are scum then we might as well lynch one that is near death first.

Celever:

• is technically not confotown

Welp. Apparently my claim of Cel being town is useless.

 

[Mariano11887]

I asked whether there was a town-aligned bomb in the setup. There is. Imo Keeper's telling the truth.

Oh... That would confirm Keeper as town.
Fine, despite I'm not comfortable with leaving the points I exposed against him because I still don't find the logic of his behavior, I think I'll drop my case on him.

##UNVOTE

I'll focus on the Jabber's list from his dream for now. I'll check bbninja's posts later.

 

[Keeper of Night]

I'm tired, annoyed, and going to go as slow as possible here so maybe you can understand.

If this is the case (I haven't checked it) then it's not possible. The ability I used on Night 2 explicitely says that I got the Role PM of my target (Keeper), in which the Farewell Ability is hidden. Plus, the result I got states that he can use his Active Ability on himself, which makes no sense if he already knows what his Farewell Ability does.

I did not have full knowledge of my Farewell ability until I used my ability on myself. This was already stated at least 50 times. Moving on.

Why I feel you need to clarify where did you get the data that you are a bomb? Because I scanned you N2 and the bomb isn't in your role PM.

I don't understand how you can just still not get it? Bomb abilities activate when you die. Farewell abilities are revealed, you guessed it, when you die. Therefor, if I had a bomb ability, it would make the most sense for it to be my Farewell ability. Which you did see, even if you can't get the effect like I can.

D3 I proposed it and Luis made me see that you could have used your ability on yourself N0 and determined you are a bomb in your Farewell Ability. But now that I realized that you targeted NP N0 and not you, there is no logical way you could know for certain you are a bomb, which means one of the two possible options: 1) You lied about being a bomb. 2) I received your safe-claim as a result of my ability. Both options don't make you look good.

...? What do you even mean? If I lied about being a bomb then I lied about being a bomb. You really just have no general grasp on how bluffing (or in my case, double bluffing) works, do you?
Should I even bother explaining again that a bomb ability would be a Farewell ability? So whether you got a real claim or a safe claim you wouldn't see the bomb anyway? No? Okay.

Now you are putting your words in doubt by saying "I really cannot see why I need to justify whether or not I actually am a bomb to you? Like, the ability could not exist at all", where in previous posts you asserted you are a bomb:

You really just have no general grasp on how bluffing (or in my case, double bluffing, works, do you?

I already made a case on you here, please everyone read it again.

That's not a case. That's a role reveal. Which you read wrong somehow. Again, everything hinges on my not having a bomb ability, which would be the hidden ability that you cannot see.

Plus, if you are town, lying about being a bomb to avoid being lynched is only acceptable if you have an extremely good power role, which you don't have.

Hi I'm the guy that can see abilities nobody else can. Maybe you heard of me?

Scum avoiding killing you means that they'll kill another townie, with a possible more powerful role than yours = hurting the town more.

Not exactly my problem, nor is it something I can control. All I can control is how easy a target I am, and how I use that to my advantage to win. Even if that means going through the steps 1-by-1 with you. Actually, unfortunately, because of how dedicated you are to whatever this is that you're doing, I've lost all ability to even role with "the bomb ability doesn't really exist" to get scum to target me at all. If you think I'm better off being killed to take a scum out, good job you just guaranteed that it won't happen.

In the case somewhat your bomb ability is true (which I don't see it possible),

HOW do you not see it possible? Just, at this point, how? It should have been extremely obvious that the bomb ability would have been the Farewell ability back when you first got my role. Somehow you missed it then that that would be the case, which is fine maybe you just glossed over it before revealing a townie power role, that's cool I guess? But it really seems like at this point you're just determined to not see the possibility that my Farewell ability does anything. Which is just dumb.

you shouldn't have claimed it so if scum kills you, you kill a scum at the same time. Exchanging one town by one scum is completely convenient for the town because we are majority.

Right, except I already said I wouldn't do that because it's totally boring. And it prevents me from using the rest of my role which, hey, is helpful. With the amount of new town in here, I'm not gonna give myself up that easily.

##VOTE: Keeper of Night

until I have a logical explanation of how he could possibly know about his bomb ability, as well as his behavior if that would be true.

Like, the ability could not exist at all. Or I could have used my head and put two and two together knowing that my character is a political leader thing with an ability named "Blank Game" and took a stab that "ohey that means anybody that kills me is affected negatively" and rolled with it until I could confirm it.

Now that I've been confirmed by Jabber, maybe we can move on.

 

[GM DracLord]

All this role talk is giving me a massive headache. Everything is pretty much hearsay in my view. No one could 100% proof their alignment simply be showing their role or speculating on others. ##VOTE: Mariano

I though you want to say something about me today.?

 

[Keeper of Night]

Okay, I forgot that scattered was the doctor. It is quite possible that scattered protected Jabber from the nightkill using his Active Ability. This would explain why scattered chose Jabber for the dream, over other players - Jabber was confo-town. ...However, the situation is a bit more complicated than that - I was also killproof Night 1, thanks to Roz's "Twilight can't die" Farewell Ability. I checked with PMJ - I wouldn't get told if I was the kill attempt that night, and I assume the same rules would apply for scattered. This means that we can't automatically clear Jabber, because we can't know for certain that he was the target.

Missed this, but while you're absolutely right on that, the amount of evidence for Jabber being town is stacking up too high for everything to be written off. We'll know better after Camoclone's claim, but we also need to hear from Celever. The possibility of Luis needing to drop and thus using that as an excuse for his scum to vote him off for town cred? That works out pretty well, considering Celv randomly found one scum with a false claim of info.

He may be a headache, but Mariano is town, Drac. In fact all of your posts seem to be nonsense filler in their own right. How about you give some sort of take on the actual situation going on? Do you believe Jabber's claims? Do you think one of ninjas/camo/celv is scum? If so, which one? Why?

 

[Keeper of Night]

Town Credibility:
Jabberwock (soft-confo through own ability, Farewell flavor, SM's target, etc.)
Mariano11887 (newbie town)
bbninjas (Twilight claim without counter, we know the role exists)

Indie:
NinjaPenguin

50/50 Scum:
Camoclone (claimed JOAT, shared an unprovable ability - no info)
Celever (outed Luis as scum, faked how he got the info)

No Info:
Zone Q11 (flip floppy backpedaling)
GM DracLord (filler posts for activity, not paying attention to the thread)

If I'm wrong on having no info for the above, do share, but they're by far the most grey area reads we have.
Until somebody counters ninja's claim, we have to treat him as confo town, so that cuts down the remaining scum to 50/50 from what Jabber gave us. All signs point to Camoclone at the moment, would town even have 2 JOATs?

 

[Mariano11887]

In response to Keeper:
I'm not going to respond point by point. I'll just say that I don't understand how you knew in early Day 1 that your Farewell Ability is a bomb if you targeted NP on Night 0. You can't say you could use your ability twice on Night 0 thanks to Jabber buffing you, because the buff takes place the following night. That is the only thing I currently don't understand.
But well, you are almost confirmed town now, so there is no point in arguing about this because my intention was to find scum.

I though you want to say something about me today.?

Yes, I was going to analyze your posts but haven't found the time yet.

 

[Camoclone]

Alrighty.

The way my role works is that I'm essentially a three-shot JOAT. I have three super powerful Abilities. When I use one of these Abilities I have a permanent vote placed on me. This persists even into LYLO and if I were to make it to when the extra votes would automatically lynch me then I would die. Here's two of the Abilities:

- Ability 1: Choose a player. That player will be completely deathproof for the next phase. A phase is one day/night cycle. (Protection begins tonight.) You can't use this ability on the same player on consecutive nights.
- Ability 2: You will put on a show for everypony, preventing the use of all other Active Abilities.

My third Ability is what will confirm me as town. I will die tonight 100% but it will be worth it. I'm not a Bomb or anything like that and this Ability will help us. I also can't doctor myself as the Ability doesn't let me. I tried to do so today but PMJ wouldn't let me.

From the Friendship Activity I used Guard on myself for the day. Night 1 Ability 1 was used on bbninjas. That's why I wasn't quick to vote him today and needed time to think about things.

More pressing is who we should lynch today.

1. Keeper of Night

Keeper is very likely town.

2. NinjaPenguin

NP is a decent option considering he is lynchable today. I can't stress this enough, he will betray us when he gets the chance.

3. GM DracLord

But as you stated that cant reall confirm his alignment so if i were to vote him just beacuse you said it like that it would be just wagoning

That time i did voted for jlap each day which i didnt on you nor bb. Plus that was my normal gameplay as town to begin with. Ivote people based on how i see them.. (gut feeling plus with any other info i have received not posted here)

Posts like these don't help DracLord out. He has contributed 0 things of value all game.

Also, looks like someone was blocking me. Not like if it's activated I can gain new insight

This post is actually townie points to GM though assuming there's a scum blocker. Being blocked isn't something scum would randomly make up and throw out of the blue.

4. quakingpunch73 Camoclone

Me.

5. TOTAL_EPICNESS bbninjas

I'm not too keen on lynching bbninjas today either. If he proves his Ability tonight, then he's town obviously. If not...

6. Mariano11887

Mariano was scummy early but he has done a complete 180 and now he's a strong townread.

7. Jabberwock

This is where it gets interesting. I'm townreading both bb and Celever. There's a decent chance Jabber is lying about getting that message. If he's scum offering up three townie names that Scattered sent him is basically a guaranteed win if we buy it. His Farewell Ability also isn't pro town. PMJ did say that wording inconsistencies shouldn't matter (I forgot about that). Jabber has also been playing weird all game. Tonight I'll delve more into him.

I did receive a boost from him though so his role is real. The role is pro-town and I think his usage is pro-town which buys him major points.

8. Celever

Where is he?

9. Zone Q11

Yeah this is scum.

If both are scum then we might as well lynch one that is near death first.

Someone please try to tell me this is a town mindset.

##UNVOTE:
##VOTE: ZONE Q11

 

[GM DracLord]

Missed this, but while you're absolutely right on that, the amount of evidence for Jabber being town is stacking up too high for everything to be written off. We'll know better after Camoclone's claim, but we also need to hear from Celever. The possibility of Luis needing to drop and thus using that as an excuse for his scum to vote him off for town cred? That works out pretty well, considering Celv randomly found one scum with a false claim of info.

He may be a headache, but Mariano is town, Drac. In fact all of your posts seem to be nonsense filler in their own right. How about you give some sort of take on the actual situation going on? Do you believe Jabber's claims? Do you think one of ninjas/camo/celv is scum? If so, which one? Why?

Atthis point and with the game setup, i cant say i belive anyone role claim nor dont believe them. . Putting aside normal ability all those farewell ability can go either way.

 

[Jabberwock]

NP is a decent option considering he is lynchable today. I can't stress this enough, he will betray us when he gets the chance.

Ironically enough this is not a townie mindset. The only viable lynch options for you are bb or Celever if you believe me, or me if you don't. Obv you should believe me, but either way FYPOV-as-town there's no reason to throw in another lynch candidate.

Jabber has also been playing weird all game. Tonight I'll delve more into him.

Looking forward to it. :+1:

Atthis point and with the game setup, i cant say i belive anyone role claim nor dont believe them. . Putting aside normal ability all those farewell ability can go either way.

Why is your vote still on Mariano?

 

[Keeper of Night]

Atthis point and with the game setup, i cant say i belive anyone role claim nor dont believe them. . Putting aside normal ability all those farewell ability can go either way.

...Do you just have nothing of substance to say at all?

 

[Camoclone]

Ironically enough this is not a townie mindset. The only viable lynch options for you are bb or Celever if you believe me, or me if you don't. Obv you should believe me, but either way FYPOV-as-town there's no reason to throw in another lynch candidate.

That's not true.

 

[Keeper of Night]

That's not true.

It is 100% true. The only viable candidates today are you and Celv. It makes 0 sense to lynch the indie when we're this close to lynching scum. If you actually wanted to help with that, you'd confirm yourself as town so we could lynch Celever and be done with it.
Or we need Celever to wake up so he can let us prove he's town instead and leave you lynched.

It's really that simple. We're getting scum today, and any town would want that over an indie lynch.

Or, if you think the whole situation is bs, then we need evidence against Jabber. Right now, there's only evidence of him being town from what I know.

 

[Camoclone]

It is 100% true. The only viable candidates today are you and Celv. It makes 0 sense to lynch the indie when we're this close to lynching scum. If you actually wanted to help with that, you'd confirm yourself as town so we could lynch Celever and be done with it.

Did you guys even read my post?

 

[Camoclone]

I highly recommend you read my post if you are town. It's obvious neither of you actually read it, unfortunately.

 

[Keeper of Night]

Did you guys even read my post?

Your post doesn't change facts.

-We know PMJ gives late updates, so that's not an indicator.
-It could be three random names he's lying about just as easily as it could be three names he actually got.
-You claimed JOAT when we already know Mariano is one, and won't reveal your ability that supposedly confirms you as town.
-Celv did randomly pull out a scum from nowhere, so it's not like he's any more in the clear than you are.
-Wording inconsistencies may not be an exact indicator itself, but it adds to everything else that leads me to believe Jabber is town. Too many coincidences, as I told ninjas. The names he picked did just so happen to be people that were kinda on the fence, so that does leave some questions, but ninjas could prove himself pretty easily. If you and Celv worked with us the same way, then we'd know for sure.

One thing is for absolutely certain. One of Camo/Celv/Jabber is scum. Of the three, Jabber has the most evidence for being town. Celever has disappeared and Camo is... Camo. So I'm content to wait for Celv to appear.

 

[Keeper of Night]

I highly recommend you read my post if you are town. It's obvious neither of you actually read it, unfortunately.

You're still at L1 and an extremely viable lynch candidate. Would highly recommend you get off your high horse.

 

[GM DracLord]

Ironically enough this is not a townie mindset. The only viable lynch options for you are bb or Celever if you believe me, or me if you don't. Obv you should believe me, but either way FYPOV-as-town there's no reason to throw in another lynch candidate.

Looking forward to it. :+1:

Why is your vote still on Mariano?

Why shouldnt it be?

...Do you just have nothing of substance to say at all?

Im not the in dept anylize like you guys, unfortunately for me this time around my feelers really not helping me at all. Luis flip and the no kill last night really dont give me any clue at all