Ho-oh EX Variants

[Slowbro]

How can you be unsure about all of that?

What? All of those are variables that need to be addressed. If you really worked out the math, the percentage of actually hitting what you said is extremely low.

 

[Dork Void]

His point is that if only a couple of things go wrong, you lose. And there are a lot of things that can go wrong.

 

[Smeargle]

Why are people forgetting that Klinklang decks can run both BW and PS Klinklang and just heal the 120 from Boufalant right off?

 

[MrGatr]

@Darkvoid.
I see, but the matchup isn't as bad as you think guys. Go test it, and use your own max potion.

 

[Slowbro]

@Darkvoid.
I see, but the matchup isn't as bad as you think guys. Go test it, and use your own max potion.

I have tested it, and Ho-oh doesn't have enough non-EX attackers to deal with Plasmaklang. Ho-oh is severely weakened after Plasma Storm anyways, so I wouldn't even play it if I were you.

 

[phillyrider807]

Why are people forgetting that Klinklang decks can run both BW and PS Klinklang and just heal the 120 from Boufalant right off?

This. SO MUCH THIS!

I honestly think this is a terrible match up. Ho-oh just doesn't seem viable right now :sadface:

 

[Dork Void]

It will have to set up 2 Stage 2s in a format where setting up 1 stage 2 can be difficult in order to use both Klinklangs effectively. That's probably not worth running any Max Potions for anyway, even if they are running both Klinklangs.

 

[Blah]

Klinklang is extremely tight for space and chances are that most of them won't be running that many Max Potion, considering the main strategy of the deck revolves around PlasmaKlang, not the Shift Gear one. Point taken however, Max Potion could end up screwing over Boufflant.

I do agree that Ho-oh gets hit hard by Plasma Storm. It utterly despises getting hit with HTL and many of the techs used before now have a harder time surviving because of all the insanely high damaging cards.

Edit: @DV It's easier than a normal double Stage 2 deck because they're based off the same basic. Shift Gear Klinklang can also be set up later if it has to; it isn't like the deck can't function without it (in fact, it's more of a tech than anything else).

 

[Dork Void]

Sure, but that's still harder than setting up 2 Hydreigon or 2 Blastoise (even if only marginally) and that doesn't happen often enough for it to warrant the use of a card that is useless most of the rest of the time.

 

[Mora]

Before I answer this, I would like to make it clear that you can never be sure of anything. You could start with Ho-Oh and six energies, prize all of your Junipers, and top deck junk like Switch and more energies for the rest of the game. Similarly, you could start Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, DCE, three energies and a Juniper. So instead of "being sure", I'll instead evaluate the probability. Moving on:

How exactly is hitting 5 energy sooooooo easy?

Well, it is Ho-Oh, which tends to run an excess of energy anyway. You have one turn to hit three, and then next turn you need to attach two. You have energy acceleration and two manual attachments. You also could have attached to one of them in a tun before (They're getting T3 Cobalion at best.) You need to hit two or three more energies. DCE, which you run four of, can take care of one; Energy Switch, which you also run four of, can take care of another one; Exp. Share, which some people choose to run, can take care of one; and Scramble Switch, which some people use, and I know for a fact that MrGatr does, can take care of the two for Terrakion. Most of those are searchable with Skyla.

How can you be sure you'll hit the tool scrappers?

He said he runs three (and possibly Skyla).

How can you be sure you'll hit the rebirth flips?

It's 50/50. If you have two, it's 67/33. If you have three, it's 75/25. This plus the fact that you have the turns before to go ahead and get Ho-Oh out before you need it, means it's pretty likely that you'll at least have the energies on the field.

How can you be sure your opponent doesn't drop potion or max potion?

This has already been addressed. Moving on.

How can you be sure your opponent won't drop scramble switch?

If we're still talking about Klingklang, they'll be using Computer Search or Dousing Machine instead to aid their setup. If they did, for whatever reason, want to run Scramble Switch, they could just tech in the BW Klingklang instead and still get to use their Ace Spec.

How can you be sure you won't start Bouffalant?

Let's say: 3 Ho-Oh, 3 Mewtwo, 2 Tornadus EX, 2 Terrakion, 1 Shaymin, 1 Bouffalant (maybe two). ~1/12 or ~2/13 chance of starting Bouffalant.

The rest of your points were valid.

 

[Slowbro]

@Mora I'm too tired to counter your points specifically, as they were good points, it might take me a while to think of counterarguments. I might do that tommorow, but I will say my original point was that in order to achieve a Bouff 120, then a Terrakion 90, you need a number of things to go your way. If they don't, you're screwed. Here's what you need:
-a Bouffalant
-a DCE
-an energy
-a way to retreat your active into Bouffalant
-a Terrakion
-a Ho-oh in the discard
-a Rebirth heads
-multiple energy in the discard
-multiple energy switch

All in two turns. It's just not good to rely on that for the matchup, and it's certainly not easy.

Let's say: 3 Ho-Oh, 3 Mewtwo, 2 Tornadus EX, 2 Terrakion, 1 Shaymin, 1 Bouffalant (maybe two). ~1/12 or ~2/13 chance of starting Bouffalant.

That pokemon lineup actually makes it easier for the Klingklang player. It won't even matter if they hit that 120 followed by 90, because even if my Cobalion is dead, your non EX attacker is also dead. I have more Cobalions, but you have 1 Bouffalant. Even if you run two, you'll still run out of resources incredibly quickly. You'll have to exert an enormous amount of resources to actually hit that. Even if you do, the Klingklang player just loses a Cobalion. However, you have to deal with 2 more. That number is increased if Klingklang player is running Durant, Super Rod, or Revive.

 

[MrGatr]

Unless your all talking the same list math, nor probabability will work. So lets just say Ho-Oh has a decent matchup against Klinklang, and I'm sure it will die down fast anyways.

Has anyone tried adding in a Victini EX. It might make the energy acceleration much faster than normal.

 

[Slowbro]

Unless your all talking the same list math, nor probabability will work. So lets just say Ho-Oh has a decent matchup against Klinklang, and I'm sure it will die down fast anyways.

Has anyone tried adding in a Victini EX. It might make the energy acceleration much faster than normal.

Why would I say something that's not true?

 

[MrGatr]

Why would you call it false when I've noticed the diversity in Ho-Oh. For example, 6 of us here in Utah run Ho-Oh (that I know of, there's lots more according to our TO) not a single one of us run the same line of cards bar 3 Mewtwo EX, and 3 Ho-Oh EX. I know someone who ran 4 Bouffalant at a point. Math doesn't work if you don't have majority of the variables, and you currently have like 8-12/60 of my deck.

 

[Slowbro]

Why would you call it false when I've noticed the diversity in Ho-Oh. For example, 6 of us here in Utah run Ho-Oh (that I know of, there's lots more according to our TO) not a single one of us run the same line of cards bar 3 Mewtwo EX, and 3 Ho-Oh EX. I know someone who ran 4 Bouffalant at a point. Math doesn't work if you don't have majority of the variables, and you currently have like 8-12/60 of my deck.

What does that matter? There's a very finite amount of practical non-EX Pokemon you can use, no matter what your card counts are. This amount, whatever it may be, is decreased because 0-1 Terrakion will be run as opposed 2-3. You keep mentioning how the lists aren't the same card for card, so probabilities and math aren't relevant, however this is false. While it may not be accurate down to the percent, you can still get a general percentage because specific lists of an archetype will be similar, even if it is an archetype like Ho-oh. Why does it matter how much I know of your deck? It doesn't, but for the record, I know much more because I know you run 4 N, 4 Juniper, 4 Catcher, 4 DCE, 4 Energy Switch, 3 Tool Scrapper, 1 Scramble Switch, and 4 Ultra Ball using common sense and looking at previous posts. So, even if it were important and/or relevant, I would know 36-40 cards of your list, and have a general idea of the other cards, even if I didn't know the specific amount for them.

 

[MrGatr]

No 4 Ultra Ball, nor 4 Catcher. And Scramble Switch was the idea, see my point proven.

 

[Slowbro]

No 4 Ultra Ball, nor 4 Catcher. And Scramble Switch was the idea, see my point proven.

Out of all my points in my last post, you chose to address the most insignificant. Seems legit.
So does not maxing out Ultra Ball or Catcher in Ho-oh. /sarcasm

 

[MrGatr]

Dude, I'm too tired to constantly argue with you about this, and it's getting off topic. Seriously go test the deck, don't give input on a deck you don't test/run its not cool. K thanks bye.

 

[Mora]

@Mora I'm too tired to counter your points specifically, as they were good points, it might take me a while to think of counterarguments. I might do that tommorow, but I will say my original point was that in order to achieve a Bouff 120, then a Terrakion 90, you need a number of things to go your way. If they don't, you're screwed. Here's what you need:
-a Bouffalant
-a DCE
-an energy
-a way to retreat your active into Bouffalant
-a Terrakion
-a Ho-oh in the discard
-a Rebirth heads
-multiple energy in the discard
-multiple energy switch

All in two turns. It's just not good to rely on that for the matchup, and it's certainly not easy.

Right, but some of that you can get starting from T1. Lets say T3 Steel Bullet, you can go ahead and go for discarding pieces of your Ho-Oh medley, Rebirthing big bird, and investing wisely in attachments before T3. I'd probably hold off on the DCE attachments for the Klingklang match up. You can also fish for the Terrakion and the Bouffalant before T3. My thesis isn't that it will happen almost every time, just that it isn't necessarily unlikely.

That pokemon lineup actually makes it easier for the Klingklang player. It won't even matter if they hit that 120 followed by 90, because even if my Cobalion is dead, your non EX attacker is also dead. I have more Cobalions, but you have 1 Bouffalant. Even if you run two, you'll still run out of resources incredibly quickly. You'll have to exert an enormous amount of resources to actually hit that. Even if you do, the Klingklang player just loses a Cobalion. However, you have to deal with 2 more. That number is increased if Klingklang player is running Durant, Super Rod, or Revive.

Yeah, I forgot Victini. I don't know what I was thinking

I will agree, though, that even with successfully pulling off the aforementioned combination and OHKO'ing Cobalion with Victini, the Klingklang match up by no means looks favorable for Ho-Oh.

 

[Slowbro]

Dude, I'm too tired to constantly argue with you about this, and it's getting off topic. Seriously go test the deck, don't give input on a deck you don't test/run its not cool. K thanks bye.

How is this getting off topic? It's a thread about Ho-oh, so talking about Ho-oh is natural. It's actually not cool to make random assumptions. I've tested this deck extensively, and have piloted it to a cities win. It seems like that was a last resort attempt to try and call me out on something as a substitute to reasoning. Well, it didn't work because I actually have tested the deck, and I have played it. I would actually go so far as to say that I'm more expierenced with it, considering I have won a cities using Ho-oh.

@Mora I'm too tired to counter your points specifically, as they were good points, it might take me a while to think of counterarguments. I might do that tommorow, but I will say my original point was that in order to achieve a Bouff 120, then a Terrakion 90, you need a number of things to go your way. If they don't, you're screwed. Here's what you need:
-a Bouffalant
-a DCE
-an energy
-a way to retreat your active into Bouffalant
-a Terrakion
-a Ho-oh in the discard
-a Rebirth heads
-multiple energy in the discard
-multiple energy switch

All in two turns. It's just not good to rely on that for the matchup, and it's certainly not easy.

Right, but some of that you can get starting from T1. Lets say T3 Steel Bullet, you can go ahead and go for discarding pieces of your Ho-Oh medley, Rebirthing big bird, and investing wisely in attachments before T3. I'd probably hold off on the DCE attachments for the Klingklang match up. You can also fish for the Terrakion and the Bouffalant before T3. My thesis isn't that it will happen almost every time, just that it isn't necessarily unlikely.

That pokemon lineup actually makes it easier for the Klingklang player. It won't even matter if they hit that 120 followed by 90, because even if my Cobalion is dead, your non EX attacker is also dead. I have more Cobalions, but you have 1 Bouffalant. Even if you run two, you'll still run out of resources incredibly quickly. You'll have to exert an enormous amount of resources to actually hit that. Even if you do, the Klingklang player just loses a Cobalion. However, you have to deal with 2 more. That number is increased if Klingklang player is running Durant, Super Rod, or Revive.

Yeah, I forgot Victini. I don't know what I was thinking

I will agree, though, that even with successfully pulling off the aforementioned combination and OHKO'ing Cobalion with Victini, the Klingklang match up by no means looks favorable for Ho-Oh.

True, but no matter what the actual odds of pulling the Bouffalant/Terrakion combo are, using Victini is much easier, although it's still unfavorable.