has pokemon "jumped the shark"?
- Thread starter AmishEskimoNinja
- Start date
Once again I have to step in. I can't understand everyone's argument and emotion on this subject. Honestly, AmishEsk is talking about how winning the game is totally different. We all know that Gengar Prime will have a deck(s) that beats it. Thats not the point. The point is that there is now a gimmicky way to win other than milling, and stalling. Whats worse is that this new way of winning is coming with a dangerous combination of cards. Unless Gengar can be one shotted then Hunter can just be used to scoop it up and BTS back into the combo. Also since the Gengar user is obviously going to be down on prizes the whole game, supporters like "Twins" become useful after Hunters have been used up. Its not unstoppable but it is going to be a new annoying deck to deal with. this deck will obviously run Machamp SF to help with the SP challenge. People are inventive and can be surprising when premier events come about (Sablelock).
That being said. Pokemon didn't jump the shark, but they almost did.
That being said. Pokemon didn't jump the shark, but they almost did.
amisheskimoninja said:
a bit slow did you just say a bit slow? umm sorry to say but charizard for 1 energy and 2 fire benched thats an OHKO on dialga g (if special metal just put more fire bench or e-belt, plus power, etc.)
EDIT: well if you mean as a teck than err maybe slow
I would hate to see a card banned in Pokemon. The reason I quick Yu-Gi-Oh was because several cards were banned or semi-limited even before they were released.
As far as Gengar Prime, I do agree on the topic. It creates a deck that can create an auto-loss situation for every deck while still using it's intended set up. I do want to point out though, that one KOed Gengar Prime means you only have 2 left, 3 if you don't play the Lv.X. Gengar Prime will still be removed and placed in the Lost Zone if it gets KOed while active. Unless I'm completely overlooking something valuable.
I'm kinda looking forward to Lost World. Gives people a reason to play that 2-2 Absol G Lv.X we all got from Supreme Victors. Also, Giratina with Broken Space-Blow may be worth trying.
As far as Gengar Prime, I do agree on the topic. It creates a deck that can create an auto-loss situation for every deck while still using it's intended set up. I do want to point out though, that one KOed Gengar Prime means you only have 2 left, 3 if you don't play the Lv.X. Gengar Prime will still be removed and placed in the Lost Zone if it gets KOed while active. Unless I'm completely overlooking something valuable.
I'm kinda looking forward to Lost World. Gives people a reason to play that 2-2 Absol G Lv.X we all got from Supreme Victors. Also, Giratina with Broken Space-Blow may be worth trying.
In response to the original post;
While I agree that the game is taking a power creep as you worded it, I dont think the game will end.
As long as there is a large enough fan base, no game will end. The pokemon company has millions more to make out of this. The game will last at least another 2 years when the new 5th generation block sets come out.
As to things like lost world or Dialga/Palkia Legend, well.....No card is unbeatable.
For lost world; either play a new stadium, or use hand disruption. Dialga G can lock it too.
Palkia Dialga legend can be taken down by Champ or Luxray etc.
Plus, in one of these new sets in the future, an "anti lost world" card will be released. Probably somthing that returns cards FROM the lost zone to the deck or somthing.
For me, the game isnt too powerful, its too fast.
While I agree that the game is taking a power creep as you worded it, I dont think the game will end.
As long as there is a large enough fan base, no game will end. The pokemon company has millions more to make out of this. The game will last at least another 2 years when the new 5th generation block sets come out.
As to things like lost world or Dialga/Palkia Legend, well.....No card is unbeatable.
For lost world; either play a new stadium, or use hand disruption. Dialga G can lock it too.
Palkia Dialga legend can be taken down by Champ or Luxray etc.
Plus, in one of these new sets in the future, an "anti lost world" card will be released. Probably somthing that returns cards FROM the lost zone to the deck or somthing.
For me, the game isnt too powerful, its too fast.
shadoworganoid said:
They won't play the stadium until they're ready to win with it.
^Hence why I said; "or use hand disruption".
If it's agreed that this new archetype won't be format warping, then I don't understand the issue here. What is making pokemon end as a game? Do you think that the precedent of an alternate win condition printed on a card is going to ruin the game? Could you please give me an example of this happening in a ccg ever? Magic has countless alternate win conditions on cards, yu-gi-oh began with one and advertised as their poster child.YourP1MP said:
Also, why would this deck bother with another stage 2 that doesn't help at all with the alternate win condition? The only reason why the OP suggested running machamp was as a tech to the opponent not putting anything on the bench so that hunter couldn't hit anything.
How was pokemon close at all to jumping the shark? Define this please. What is meant by this, because every presented explanation doesn't fit this new archetype, other than it being "ridiculous". Which SP does a much better job of doing IMO.
Sabett said:
StarWars CCG. You turned Vader to the light side and won. It was in the last full set to come out before the game died.
Sabett said:
I just think all decks are going to start teching a machamp in. People used to tech in nidoqueen to counter spread decks and get healing. Now they'll tech in machamp to kill stupid overpowered legends and get quick knockouts.
Sabett said:
I want Scramble/boost energy back
Also what about Computer Search?
Heck where is my Celio's Network?
amisheskimoninja said:
Sabett said:
I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about the TCG. I'm talking about pokemon in real life (or in the anime, if you prefer)
amisheskimoninja said:
Pokemon anime and Pokemon TCG are completely different for ex: Pokemon in the anime don't have a retreat cost. I also think you can't compaire Gengar prime with Gengar in the anime. It's like compairing apples to oranges, sure their both fruit but they taste different. Plus I don't think Pokemon is going to end any time soon.
In the comparison of Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic, and Star Wars, you find that Pokemon relates most to Star Wars? Despite the similarities that Pokemon has with magic, and even Yu-Gi-Oh. Despite the fact that this archetype won't even be format warping, or even BDIF. Pokemon has a much much much larger fanbase than the Star Wars CCG. I bet more than half the people who play pokemon haven't even heard of the decipher game. What happened with the Star Wars CCG doesn't apply at all with what's going on with pokemon, without a draw engine similar to claydol, or unless it has some magic way of setting up without being disrupted by luxchomp, this archetype will be a tier 2 at best. How is this ruining the game? In the Star Wars CCG I'm assuming it was too simple to turn darth vader to the light side, in pokemon the new archetype will struggle against pre existing archetypes...amisheskimoninja said:
Is it that you don't agree this will happen? That gengar will run over SP? And that's how pokemon's going to jump the shark? A new alternate win condition is not only winning but warping the format? Because I need some clarity, I'm not understanding what you mean so far by jumping the shark.
That comparison doesn't apply at all....Gengar doesn't want to grab a single prize, but as long as there's an archetype that KO's pokemon via damage healing will always be applicable. Machamp will only slow down Gengar. This would be like SP running nidoqueen. I guess it's happening somewhere, is it done widely? No, not by any means.amisheskimoninja said:
Also, we disagree on the power level of these legends. KGL has a random effect and needs 4 energy attached before it can even start to think about doing something. DPL needs 3 energy attached, can't use DCE for it's 2 prize attack, discards that energy. DRL needs 4 energy to be attached as well, and discards two of them. OK sure there's typhlosion, magnezone, and heatran X, but how are you supposed to set this up while luxchomp is tearing your side of the field apart, even more so when ALL of these legends are weak to luxchomp? They're all terribly slow, clunky, and won't be affecting the format. The only reason REL sees play is because for 2 energy it can end the game, no other legend can do that.
Oh ok, I thought bag was a clever way of saying hand...it would be really cool if hands were referred to as bags, and english cards finally changed from trainers to items /end tangentamisheskimoninja said:
Anyway, how would milling apply to IRL so to speak, how would pokemon who sit on the bench and help their active or actually damage the opponents pokemon translate. Why can you place a pokemon down, then scoop him up? Why can you receive help from outside people via supporters? Why aren't all your pokemon chosen beforehand? Why can your opponent see the pokemon on the bench? Why can any attack at all attack your benched pokemon? Why can you play two pokemon against one in the form of a legend? Why can DPL add prizes to your count? Does he magically restore your pokemon? I'm sorry, but that shark's been jumped off from the get go.
^I didn't play yugioh or magic. But I did play star wars. So it was the only comparison I could make.
Also, you say lost world won't be format warping or BDIF. I disagree. Lost world winning Japanese Nationals is evidence of this.
Also, you say lost world won't be format warping or BDIF. I disagree. Lost world winning Japanese Nationals is evidence of this.
Oh, well magic has a plethora of alternate win conditions printed on cards, and idk about how many yu-gi-oh has, but I do know they began with one.amisheskimoninja said:
Alright, so you define jumping the shark as this new archetype warping the format, and there by turning off so many people that pokemon tcg crash and burns. Am I in the ball park? Also, what was the t8 in japan nationals? The deck that makes the top spot doesn't necessarily say more than what else made t8. For example Torterra made first spot at German (?) nationals, does this really say anything about the format? Sure Torterra's ok. Did it get a little resurgence? Yes a little. Is it better than SP? No. Will it be winning any other nationals or worlds by any chance? Probably not.
Now I'm not saying this was a fluke, the lost world deck will probably be up there on the tiers, but just because it won nationals doesn't mean it's warping the format. The 2-4 spot could've easily been SP decks and one of them could've been a dialga list that lost before it could play against the the gengar build.
Also, hasn't the pokemon format been warped before? I mean I wasn't around for GG, but from what I heard it was one of the most unhealthiest formats I've ever known of. It was litteraly described to me as consisting of GG decks and anti-GG decks. With all of this, the pokemon fanbase is still here, and the card game continues on as it always has. If the lost world deck did become a format warping archetype, then it would only be for a while anyway, new sets come out, and old sets leave, eventually it would be equated by some new archetype, perhaps even creating a paper rock scissors format out of it, or it would eventually cycle out. However, GG didn't rock the format the entire time it was in there did it? If Lost World did, I wouldn't expect it to happen forever either. And that's all considering if this new archetype somehow manages to become warping when we already have SP in the format.