Going First or Second

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pokedan24

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Something I noticed when playing is that 90% of the time, if my opponent wins the opening coin toss, he or she will go first. I've probably gone first most of the time as well.

In the past, you'd be a fool not to go first, but with the November rule change, going first has some disadvantages (not being able to attack) meaning going second isn't always so bad. I just think it's interesting that most people still go first. I don't know if it's out of habit or maybe the advantages of going first are still greater (I think it depends on the deck myself cause there's been times I've opted to go second, but with lasers still in format, I think going first is slightly better).
 
RE: Going First or Second?

It really depends on the deck. For example, a Blastoise/Keldeo deck that needs to set up ASAP will go first so they can get a T2 Blastoise, while a deck like Plasma will tend to go second so they get to attack first.
 
I think in general, every deck should want to go first, especially if you don't know what your opponent is playing. If they're playing something like Blastoise or Virizion/Genesect, then they have no reason to want to go first, so even if your deck sometimes likes to go second (Yveltal and Plasma come to mind), going first is better against those decks because you essentially get a free turn to set up. If you're playing a fast deck like Yveltal or Plasma, and you know you're opponent is also playing one of those decks, I still think it's best to go first. Both of those decks have much more glamorous turn 2s than turn 1s most of the time (Yveltal can attack with Yveltal as opposed to Junk Hunting/Oblivion Winging, Plasma can Blizzard Burn/Plasma Gale as opposed to Raiden Knuckling), and while having that first turn can be nice, they're not necessary for setting up, and often times the player who goes first will get the first knock out.

However, 1 perk I've found from going second is Colress. If you're going first, your opponent will usually have 0 to 1 benched Pokemon out, and thus, Colress is very weak. But if you go second, your opponent will likely have 2 to 3 benched Pokemon out by that point, and Colress will be able to draw you a respectable amount of cards, assuming you have a few benched Pokemon yourself. If your deck has a solid and consistent turn 1 option, and plays a lot of basic Pokemon and Colress, going second might be better for your deck. But not too many decks will have all of those things, sadly.
 
RE: Going First or Second?

Brave Vesperia said:
It really depends on the deck. For example, a Blastoise/Keldeo deck that needs to set up ASAP will go first so they can get a T2 Blastoise, while a deck like Plasma will tend to go second so they get to attack first.
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Agreed, especially if one is playing a "setup" deck (e.g., Blastoise, RayBoar) with Tropical Beach. I definitely want to go first in order to "play out" (hopefully) my hand and then replenish it via Beach. With any of my "fast" (i.e., non-setup) decks, I will choose to go second.
 
From a theoretical standpoint, it's pretty much always better to go first.

It's a lot easier to draw out on a piece of paper, but the basic explanation is this: If you go first, you get one turn with no attacks, followed by an opponent's turn with attacks, followed by your turn with attacks. At this point, you have a 100% advantage over your opponent--because you have had two turns (one with attacking, one without), and your opponent has only had one turn (with attacking). On the next turn, you will be at a slight disadvantage--you will have still had two turns (one with attacks, one without), and your opponent will have had two turns (both with attacking). That means every other turn you will be at a 100% advantage, and the turns in between you will be at a slight disadvantage. On the flip side, if you choose to go second, this system works in the opposite way--every other turn you are at a 100% disadvantage, and every turn in between you are at a slight advantage. So basically, you're weighing a 100% advantage + a slight disadvantage against a 100% disadvantage + a slight advantage. Therefore, based on this, going first is always better.

Of course, without even going into that kind of depth, it's still pretty clear that you should always choose to go first. After all, you have no idea what you are going to start with nor what your opening hand will be; you could choose to go second and not be able to attack anyway because of a bad start. The only situation where going second is the better option is where getting an attack before your opponent is going to allow you to set up faster than them--in short, when the attack is more important than getting things like the first attachment or establishing your field. The only time this will ever happen is when there are two aggressive decks facing each other, and without knowing what you are playing against beforehand, you can't really decide to go second based on this. Once again, you also can't guarantee you'll even get an attack if you decide to go second, meaning literally the only situation you should go second is if not getting the first attack will put you at a massive disadvantage--something that will rarely, if ever, be the case.

tl;dr, just go first, always. The situations where going second is the better option are practically nonexistant, and because you have to decide before you see your opening hand, you will never be informed enough to know that going second is really the better play.
 
It would seem to me that your theorymon is too highly dependent upon a variety of random variables. For example, if my opponent is playing a deck and only starts with a lone, "low" HP Poké and I'm running a "fast" deck and get setup, there may be a good chance I can actually KO that the defending Poké - game over. Also, first player could draw "dead" or not even attack on his/her second turn too. These situations are contrary to some of your points, but could happen. For me, choosing to go first or second is very dependent upon the deck I'm running.
 
Even when I am playing a fast deck like yveltal or plasma where I can attack first I try to go first. Going first allows you to set up so much better because it most cases your oppenent is not going to be able to KO your active on there first turn. Also going first allows you to see what your oppenent is playing so you can set up accordingly, for example if you see a Verizion EX you want to get your garbador set up as quickly as possible because you want to stop abilitys as soon a as possible.

In one instance of playing my Yveltal/ Darkrai/ garbador deck I had a near perfect turn going second. I started with A sabley A Yveltal EX an escape rope. A DCE, 2 dark energy an ultra ball and. And top decked a dark patch. Started with sableye and attached the DCE to Yveltal and ultraballed away the 2 dark energy for a trubbish. dark patched onto yveltal and the escape rope. I was dealing 120 damage turn one going second because they attached a DCE.

That is the only time I have been able to really win the game turn one
 
With cards like Red Card and Jim and Cas or w/e. It could be quite painful to go second. Having pokemon with 30 HP can also be an instant loss if you go second.

Though i have found that I enjoy going second with a fairy deck that runs like 3 Xerneas, to start accelerating energy asap. Though it can also help if you drop a bunch of basics before the match actually begins and your opponent is forced to play an N.

Either way I still think its safer to go first if at all possible. Though it is pretty great when your deck has pokemon that can do well while going first or second.
 
Absolutely going first. The only time I would consider going second is maybe if it gets down to game three, and you might be able to donk, since going second won't hurt you as bad game three because if you somehow manage to get to game three, you probably won't finish game three. Other than that, going first gives you so much more in terms of strategic advantage. You get the first Energy attachment, and you get the first chance to evolve (or at least set up). These aren't as important now due to increased Energy acceleration and less playable evolutions, but still--you get to do things first. The way I see it is either way, you give your opponent a turn before you start attacking. The difference between going first and going second is the extra turn you get at the beginning of the game. Basically what it boils down to is extra turn > first attack (which honestly will not be for a lot of damage, and I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think it would change any important numbers often enough to be worth it.)
 
It seems like going first is always the better route. There are some decks that don't mind going second (Dark, Plasma, Fairy), and others that do (Blastoise, Rayboar, and Virgen).

The Xerneas deck is what made me think about this. A while back, I read a blog post that encouraged Xerneas players to go second because they could get more energy into play with Geomancy (it made sense at the time). But playing the deck,

a. I don't always get to start with Xerneas (despite running 3).
b. Even if I do, going first does not net me any disadvantages. I still have a lot of energy into play by turn 3. I can also get a fairy and a DCE into play by turn 2, which is enough to get an early attack going.
 
It depends what you are playing, if you ran plasma until recently you may have wanted to go 2nd.
 
When testing out Milktank Butterfree on PTCGO going second is a must. 100-110 damage T1 is much better then going 1st with a better setup but no attack.
 
Most of the time I want to go first. However, in my Landorus EX/Mewtwo EX deck, I like to go second, despite my deck running Garbodor and Raichu, but the deck can pretty consistently get out a Landorus or Mewtwo and attack right away. It's especially great to put the early pressure on with Landorus when you can hit unevolved pokemon that like to chill on the bench before they can evolve (or force your opponent to spend extra resources to try and evolve quickly).
 
megamaster125 said:
Most of the time I want to go first. However, in my Landorus EX/Mewtwo EX deck, I like to go second, despite my deck running Garbodor and Raichu, but the deck can pretty consistently get out a Landorus or Mewtwo and attack right away. It's especially great to put the early pressure on with Landorus when you can hit unevolved pokemon that like to chill on the bench before they can evolve (or force your opponent to spend extra resources to try and evolve quickly).
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Going second is always preferable in Landorus/Garbodor decks, it just feels so fun hitting them hard for often times 50-60 damage turn one.
 
You should always want to go first, whether you are a lock deck, rush deck, set up deck, etc. It used to depend on your hand (see if you could get Nd out of it or more for your colress), but with the rule change, going first gives you a massive advantage in every way. 1st, you get the first energy attachment, supporter, just DRAW in general. Getting energy attachments is huge, because that means you'll be putting on pressure earlier. A simple 30 or 50 T1 isn't worth Although things like plasma and landorus like attacking early, without knowing the matchup, it is much safer to go first. You will generally know what your opponent is playing by their opening, allowing you to prepare earlier.
 
Saying that going first is always better is really a overly-simplified statement. It doesn't give you absolute advantage. The skill to know how to deal with any situation you're put in, whether that means going first or second, is what will allow you to perform your best, whether it results in a win or a loss. The second you gather a preconceived notion that going first is always better is the moment you let yourself become a potential victim to your own headgames. When you get discouraged you don't play as well, and I think it's a very close-minded statement that going first is always the better option, as going first and second is really a very small part in the grand scheme of who will outplay their opponent.
 
Frost Mage said:
Saying that going first is always better is really a overly-simplified statement. It doesn't give you absolute advantage. The skill to know how to deal with any situation you're put in, whether that means going first or second, is what will allow you to perform your best, whether it results in a win or a loss. The second you gather a preconceived notion that going first is always better is the moment you let yourself become a potential victim to your own headgames. When you get discouraged you don't play as well, and I think it's a very close-minded statement that going first is always the better option, as going first and second is really a very small part in the grand scheme of who will outplay their opponent.
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Well, I can't really see which direction you are going with this. First, you are saying that always going first is a simple statement, then you skipped to talking about ingame play disregarding the choice of first/second. Finally, serious mindgames have nothing to do with choosing first or second. It is what you do on the turn that matters. Really that's just criticizing my decision not necessarily the point at hand. This entire season I have never chosen to go second and I've played decks like Yeti and DarkGarbo that benefit tremendously from T1 attacks (in raiden knuckle and junk hunt respectively). Frankly, the decision before the flip instead of after changes this mindset. Since it is before the flip, I would always choose first, but after the flip would require more thought due to your hand strength.
 
The point at hand is a silly one. Going first or second is dependent on the deck, and I think the idea that "going first is always better" just isn't true.
 
Going 1st is crucial to all decks. Period. Plasma and landorus related decks all could go 1st because that energy attachment and setup is more important then turn 1 damage. What deck is needed to go second to win? Don't say milktank because most versions today run empoleon or greninja not butterfree.
 
I'm actually starting to sway my opinion and go with going first is always better. Even if you do get the advantage of attacking on T2, being the first to use a draw Supporter or attach an Energy is very crucial.
 
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