Competitive Battling Discussion Of The Week 14

[PG24]

After much consideration, I've been considering this as the Competitive Battling Discussion Of The Week: is Thundurus too broken for OU? Quagsire and Gastrodon are decimated by Grass Knot. Gastrodon also needs Focus Blast to miss, which in no way makes it a perfect counter. If Thundurus is under rain, Jirachi can't beat it since Thunder is almost a OHKO at +2 (Jirachi also has to rely on luck to beat it). Porygon2 with max sp. def doesn't like taking a super effective Focus Blast, which has a 26% to OHKO, an even higher chance with SR. Porygon2 also fails to OHKO. Blissey is sometimes 2HKO (with Leftovers, it has a 13.7% chance of not going below 50% at full health, but that's enough to make Blissey scramble for recovery) by a +2 Focus Blast, and is shut down by Taunt. Almost everything that can "counter" Thundurus is beaten if it picks a certain move, or has a chance of not living.

Before you make your post, remember what a counter is:

A Pokemon that can freely switch in with little to no harm and threaten back.

 

[Elk-Dimension]

I know that Thundurus is broken, but I still kinda like it. The idea of one Pokemon ruling the game is for some reason kinda cool to me, haha. But IMO it is too good, it has no perfect counter, etc, etc.

 

[One Approved]

Thundurus needs to get ousted. There is no such thing as a universal thundurus counter. Quagsire and Gastrodon's only saving grace is that Thundurus rarely ever run Grass Knot, but instead use HP Ice and Focus Blast. Blissey is 2HKO'd with Stealth Rock up when Thundurus is at +2, and it's the best special wall in the entire game. The only thing that really exists are thundurus checks- things that can revenge kill it. Scarf Ttar, Flygon, and other stuff with Stone Edge can kill. CB Scizor, or random Ice Sharders help too. The only thing that outspeeds it and can actually OHKO back is Starmie. Gastrodon and Quagsire can switch in, but they don't KO with ice beam, and get 2HKO'd by Focus Blast. Latias also takes heavy damge from +2 HP Ice, and fails to KO back. I don't see any counters for Thundurus that exist in OU, and I think it needs to be an uber.

 

[bacon]

Well, we first need to move away from the notion of counters. There are many Pokemon who are too diverse to have any solid switch ins, yet this doesn't compromise their position in standard play. The notion of "send Pokemon X in to counter Pokemon Y" is a somewhat simplistic and dated mindset originating from earlier generations where the game was more defensively based.

What you really need to be asking is the following: Is there any way that I can prepare for this Pokemon that doesn't require me to make heavy sacrifices and risky predictions?

For me, I keep Thundurus from becoming too dangerous by using a combination of Gastrodon and Latias, with something like scarf Tyranitar acting as an emergency check. Thundurus is not getting many chances to obtain a Nasty Plot boost due to its Stealth Rock weakness depleting its bulk every time it switches in. With these things in mind, I've never really had any problems with it more pronounced than that of your typical sweeper.

I can see his speed being a problem for more offensively based teams, though.

 

[King Arceus]

I honestly feel Thundurus is too broken for OU. It just becomes way too powerful after a single use of Nasty Plot. Not even the best walls can stand up to its overwhelming Special Attack once bosted which only takes one turn to do. Few Pokemon can actually outpace it without Choice Scarf to be able to KO it. Starmie is one of the few that actually can, though it is not able to switch into Thunderbolt. Offensive teams will lack the defenses to be able to defeat it and will need to rely on a revenge killer. Defensive teams have to be weary of Nasty Plot and Taunt which will allow it to sweep through teams with little effort.

 

[Elk-Dimension]

I disagree. Excadrill is also countered by priority in the form of Vaccum Wave, Mach Punch, and Aqua Jet, as opposed to Thundurus who trades a weakness to Ice Shard and neutrality to Quick Attack to resist Fighting priority and be neutral to Aqua Jet (which are far more common than Quick Attack/Ice Shard).
Thundurus also can break down the Pokemon that counter it, none of its checks like any of its attacks at +2. This compared to Excadrill, who is walled pretty heavily by Gliscor/Skarm/Bronzong no matter what it runs (I know that +2 Life Orb Return hits Gliscor hard, but then Gliscor can just OHKO with Earthquake).
Thundurus is more easily revenged by things that aren't priority, so I guess that's a fair trade, but Nasty Plotted attacks really hurt pretty bad no matter what they are.

 

[Professor Palutena]

To defeat Thundurus; you need to figure out what its running along side Nasty Plot/Thunder(bolt)/HP Ice.

If its Grass Knot, Blissey and Porygon2 easily handle Thundurus.
If its Focus Blast, Quagsire beats it. Gastrodon also beats it 51% of the time. With Softboiled or Wish/Protect, Blissey can outstall the 8 Focus Blasts, sometimes.
If its Taunt, Quagsire, Gastrodon and Lantern beat it.

The problem is; how do you figure out what that fourth move is? You can't just say "I'm guessing it has Focus Blast, so I'm sending out Quagsire", only to be beaten by Grass Knot, and then your team gets swept. To make matters worse, unless its versing one of its counters, Thundurus is almost always better of using Thunder(bolt) or HP Ice. It basically takes it down to a guessing game, and you win 66% of the time.

Thundurus is easier to check using the previously mentioned Starmie, and Choice Scarfed Pokemon, as well as certain forms of priority. But a check doesn't equal a counter, as Starmie isn't going to want to come in on a Thunder(bolt), Dragonite cries in pain after being hit by HP Ice. You can't rely on your check to beat Thundurus, because you're still going to have to sacrifice something to it.

I think Thundurus has to go. It forces you to run a Pokemon that can only counter it 66% of the time. Otherwise, something dies as your Thundurus check tries to beat it.

 

[King Arceus]

Since Excadrill got brought up, I do want to bring up the fact the Thundurus can perform well in any weather, unlike Excadrill who relies on it.

 

[PMJ]

Thundurus isn't broken. He's just good.

Defensively he is as about as frail as Azelf (Azelf's 75/70/70 vs Thundurus's 79/70/80). Azelf has a wider special movepool, access to Nasty Plot, and he's actually faster than Thundurus. All throughout gen 4, Azelf was a dangerous sweeper who needed to be prepared for. It was arguably easier to KO (or revenge KO) him thanks to a weakness to Pursuit and Blissey could give him the middle finger due to the absence of Focus Blast, but that didn't mean Azelf wasn't capable of ripping entire teams to shreds.

Thundurus is gen 5's Azelf, except with a weakness to Stealth Rock and access to Focus Blast instead of Fire Blast.

He gets checked by anyone with a Scarf (Nidoking gets special mention for avoiding T-wave trolling and slaughtering Thundurus with Ice Beam), and anyone who can beat his good-but-not-unbeatable 111 Speed. If we ever get Volt Absorb Raikou, that'll get added to the list of checks.

If Thundurus switches into SR and sandstorm that's 31% off his life just from coming in. If he has LO on, he'll be at nearly half after a single attack, less if he does NP first. Then he becomes a lot easier to pick off with priority. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch does 37.1% - 44%. Adamant Lucario's ExtremeSpeed: 39.2% - 46.4%. CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet does 55% - 64.9% outside of the rain. In the rain you do 81.8% - 96.9%, a guaranteed KO after SR. Likewise, CB Mamoswine's Ice Shard massacres him (in any weather I might add), doing 90.7% - 107.2%. (Note: percentages may vary a little due to the absence of gen 5 pokemon in Smogon's calculator; each of these are attacking min/min Azelf)

Finally, consider Salamence. While it is true that he was voted uber towards the end of gen 4, he remained OU for many years before that. When you compare the two, Salamence has better typing, better defensive stats, an arguably better ability which augments those defenses, and a bigger movepool.

It's not such a stretch to say that your team should have priority or consider a scarfer. I added Scarf Terrakion to my team after finding I had trouble beating anything that could outspeed Mienshao, and I've done better as a result.

In closing, just because Thundurus might beat your team doesn't mean he's uber. It means your team is weak to Thundurus. Think of ways you can make as few changes as possible while still preserving the spirit of your team. If you're having a really hard time doing it, maybe it's time to just suck it up and build something else.

 

[King Arceus]

Azelf has a wider special movepool, access to Nasty Plot, and he's actually faster than Thundurus.

Thundurus has access to Nasty Plot.

If Thundurus switches into SR and sandstorm that's 31% off his life just from coming in. If he has LO on, he'll be at nearly half after a single attack, less if he does NP first.

I don't use LO on Thundurus because then it faints too easily. I prefer Leftovers and Lum Berry for either recovering HP or restoring status. I haven't looked to see what the most common item is for it, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[PMJ]

When I mentioned Azelf learning Nasty Plot, I wasn't saying he could and Thunder bro couldn't, but that he could do the same thing (generally speaking) Thundurus can. Probably coulda worded it better.

Leftovers helps survivability but can be negated with hail (lol) or sandstorm.

I never mentioned paralyzing Thundurus, and I was gonna. It's a gamble because, as you mentioned, if Thundurus has a Lum Berry on it, you are gonna get toasted and then there goes another Pokemon. That said, if you don't see Leftovers or Life Orb, it's probably got Lum on it so just be wary of its item and play accordingly.