Discussion Celebi and Ninja Boy
- Thread starter Noel
- Start date
Sure, but first that's a flip for an ability; It might not work (especially if your opponent has garb or used hex). Second, the situation where you'll have 160 damage and not a KO on a pokemon is very unlikely. Third, if you ninja into a non attacker and shuffle the energy attached into the deck you lose the turns you spent attaching to that pokemon. You can get energies fairly easily in Sceptile, but that work is just unnecessary. In that deck I'd rather run some type of scoop up cards since you run mega turbos, forest of giant plants, and many other cards that make it easy for a setup in one turn.
Specifically for Ninja boy, I'm not sure how it will work in the current meta, but I've heard it will be good.
Specifically for Ninja boy, I'm not sure how it will work in the current meta, but I've heard it will be good.
It's possible, but you have to figure a couple major points.
The first is that Sceptile EX + Poison is traditionally a One-Hit KO.
Celebi's attack really doesn't set up anything too significant. It's really a post effectiveness, if say the opponent is able to retreat with only one HP remaining. What you really want for a starter to Sceptile EX is something that sets up with a Special Conditions (such as [Twirling Sign] Illumise). If you're playing in expanded, and you're using Hypnotoxic Laser, then Celebi becomes a slightly more useful as a tactical shield to hide behind while you his your opponent with Hypnotoxic Laser and energize Sceptile EX from the bench.
However, even this can be sub-par for a number of reasons—such as the fact that you're going to taking up Supporter slots with Ninja Boy—that better aid in fetching more Hypnotoxic Laser later in the game (as you use them up and their numbers become more scarce).
Second is that you're going to be potentially wasting an energy-turn trying to prep Celebi for the Ninja Boy effect. Celebi's HP is really low, making it more likely a waste before anything else, where you're probably just better off leaving Celebi to be KO'd so that you can use that energy turn to fully prep Sceptile EX from the bench.
If anything, Ninja Boy's greatest potential here probably involves acting as a more technical version of Pokémon Center Lady—enabling you to remove Special Conditions and certain attack effects (such as one that affect the Defending Pokémon)—while switching from one fully energized copy of Sceptile EX to another fully energized copy (like a shadow clone technique).
As an HP recovery or evasion technique, you're generally better off using Ninja Boy to switch to another Pokémon EX instead (such as Kyurem EX). At 170 damage, Kyurem EX can deal 200 damage for just two energy. Add Muscle Band or Fighting Fury Belt, and you can stretch into One-Hit KO's against even Mega Pokémon.
[Damage Change] Mewtwo would be another interesting option, but that one would take a lot of adaptation to pull off. You'd need to be using Prism and Blend Energy, which can be very vulnerable, and somewhat out of the way. It's probably interesting enough to give a try though, especially if you're using Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank City Gym. It's potentially another instant knockout scenario—even against Mega Pokémon.
The first is that Sceptile EX + Poison is traditionally a One-Hit KO.
Celebi's attack really doesn't set up anything too significant. It's really a post effectiveness, if say the opponent is able to retreat with only one HP remaining. What you really want for a starter to Sceptile EX is something that sets up with a Special Conditions (such as [Twirling Sign] Illumise). If you're playing in expanded, and you're using Hypnotoxic Laser, then Celebi becomes a slightly more useful as a tactical shield to hide behind while you his your opponent with Hypnotoxic Laser and energize Sceptile EX from the bench.
However, even this can be sub-par for a number of reasons—such as the fact that you're going to taking up Supporter slots with Ninja Boy—that better aid in fetching more Hypnotoxic Laser later in the game (as you use them up and their numbers become more scarce).
Second is that you're going to be potentially wasting an energy-turn trying to prep Celebi for the Ninja Boy effect. Celebi's HP is really low, making it more likely a waste before anything else, where you're probably just better off leaving Celebi to be KO'd so that you can use that energy turn to fully prep Sceptile EX from the bench.
If anything, Ninja Boy's greatest potential here probably involves acting as a more technical version of Pokémon Center Lady—enabling you to remove Special Conditions and certain attack effects (such as one that affect the Defending Pokémon)—while switching from one fully energized copy of Sceptile EX to another fully energized copy (like a shadow clone technique).
As an HP recovery or evasion technique, you're generally better off using Ninja Boy to switch to another Pokémon EX instead (such as Kyurem EX). At 170 damage, Kyurem EX can deal 200 damage for just two energy. Add Muscle Band or Fighting Fury Belt, and you can stretch into One-Hit KO's against even Mega Pokémon.
[Damage Change] Mewtwo would be another interesting option, but that one would take a lot of adaptation to pull off. You'd need to be using Prism and Blend Energy, which can be very vulnerable, and somewhat out of the way. It's probably interesting enough to give a try though, especially if you're using Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank City Gym. It's potentially another instant knockout scenario—even against Mega Pokémon.
Well, actually Celebi's ancient trait protects it from garb, and your opponent will not likely play hex when there is no Pokemon with abilities on the bench or active. Either way, even if u flip tales, i think giving 1 prize is better then giving 2.
I'm really confused about what you are trying to say. Celebi would not be on the bench or even really used for its attack. If you know that you are going to die next turn, I don't understand why you wouldn't want a chance to give your opponent only 1 prize card. Even then, if it fails, giving 1 prize is better then giving 2
Also, the card states: "Any cards attached to that Pokemon, damage counters, Special Conditions, and effects on it are now on the new Pokemon."
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But you lose the energy on sceptile. I can't see a reason why you would want to switch out an attacking pokemon for a support one like this. Yes, you have a chance of not being knocked out, but if you flip tails and knock out celebi you lose 2 energy and you still give up a prize. Is losing the energy worth 1 less prize is the question. No. Think about it. You just used your supporter and you have 1 less attacker on the field. If you can put up another sceptile that turn you likely have a great setup and hence ninja boy is unnecessary since you are winning anyways. Losing 2 energy can set you back if your opponent can OHKO next turn, meaning 2 main attackers are not currently on the field.
The scenario is entirely non-functional unless you have something like Robo Substitute (or another powerful attacker) to move in after Celebi is Knocked Out.
Case scenario: You have Sceptile EX out—and it has 100+ damage on it.
You use Ninja Boy, and transform Sceptile EX into Celebi, but Celebi gets Knocked Out right away due to the damage exchange. From there, you have to move in another Pokémon after Celebi, that your opponent will have an open attack on next turn. With this move, you might lose two prizes anyways, where you could have just retreated to greater success.
Even if you win the flip, you will have to have a Pokémon ready from the Bench, that can come out and Knock Out your opponent's Active. Otherwise, your opponent is still going to get to collect at least one Prize card, and will possibly collect two prizes if you lose the flip and your next Pokémon gets Knocked Out as well.
Why just in Sceptile decks? Assuming you mean Sceptile-EX, but really can't this work in any deck? You can get by with a single Celebi (XY: Black Star Promos XY93) unless you're worried about it being Prized. Even then, just two copies of it. Until rotation, same deal for Ninja Boy thanks to VS Seeker. Celebi may only work with Ninja Boy but Ninja Boy can work anytime swapping out your Active with something from your deck is to your advantage, which can be often!
@ReapThaWhirlwind
I believe you are missing the point. Celebi isn't being used for its attack, but for its Ability (and to an extent, its Ancient Trait)
Celebi said:
You use Ninja Boy so that Celebi replaces an Active Pokémon-EX at a point when the damage is already enough to KO Celebi. If the coin flip for Leap Through Time fails, your opponent gets a KO ahead of time, but only takes one Prize and you can search out the Pokémon-EX you just returned to the deck (if you need it right away). If you do get "heads" then your opponent takes no Prizes for their efforts of the last however many turns and Celebi plus all cards attached are sent to your deck instead of the discard pile.
Yes you need another Pokémon in play. Noel may have thought it went without saying; since this isn't an entirely new trick (Ninja Boy is based on an older Trainer with a similar effect) I already understood this. Doesn't mean you ought to have, I am just stating it so that it is clear now. The idea would be to use Ninja Boy-into-Celebi when you already have your next attacker ready. Sometimes that won't be an option, but your manual Energy attachment for the turn and a lucky Mega Elixir is all it takes for this example; not completely reliable but seems reasonable.
Ninja Boy actually has many excited, because as I just stated, we've seen its effect before. The only caveat is that it was as a "normal Trainer" (what we now call an Item). The thing is, the effect is so powerful it warrants it. Imagine your opponent walling with a Safeguard Pokémon against your Pokémon-EX that is all powered up and has Fighting Fury Belt attached. As long as it does not have too much damage on it, you can use Ninja Boy to replace said Pokémon-EX with something that is not a Pokémon-EX. You can replace an opener that does not Evolve with something that does Evolve. Even just replacing one Basic main attacker with an alternate can be handy. Did I mention that it is yet another way to deal with a Shaymin-EX (ROS) open? You are correct that being a Supporter is worth a lot, but Ninja Boy most likely delivers.
Not at all. The point I was making is that Celebi's Ability isn't of explicit use compared to starting Pokémon that can set-up for Sceptile EX more explicitly (such as {Poison Point} Venipede or [Twirling Sign] Illumise). With Celebi, you have to sit around and wait for your opponent to knock Celebi out. Without invoking any Special Conditions for it—which together ultimately aims to become a greater disadvantage over anything else.
Even if you use Teammates to set up for the knockout—configuring the deck for that play to work in your benefit (and never get in the way) can be an over the top challenge. You'd need far more resources than just Celebi to wing it. Often, I run up to three different Pokémon that can play off Teammates before I consider that the Supporter be used to explicit benefit (without potentially becoming a greater liability).
Why? Because we have the probability factor to consider. With only 4 copies of each, the chances of getting both in your opening hand are too slim for consistency. If you have 4 copies of both cards in your deck, there's only a 47% of getting either one in your hand. If you can get the first in your opening hand, that chance drops down to 40% that you will get the second. That's really low—and with cards like Teammates—it's very likely that the card will become dead-weight in every other opening scenario. It won't do enough on its own. And can become a sitting duck that doesn't enable you to make an advance with any Special Conditions or direct retrieval effects.
In addition to that, even the use of Ninja Boy (in attempts to avert a prize being collected) can ultimately result in two prizes being collected anyways (with no benefit whatsoever) in cases where you don't have a follow up attacker ready on the bench—to send in after you Ninja Boy into Celebi—and Celebi is then Knocked Out.
It can be counter-productive is what I'm saying, where there are far more prime strategies to consider (as well as far greater candidates for the selections).
Even if you use Teammates to set up for the knockout—configuring the deck for that play to work in your benefit (and never get in the way) can be an over the top challenge. You'd need far more resources than just Celebi to wing it. Often, I run up to three different Pokémon that can play off Teammates before I consider that the Supporter be used to explicit benefit (without potentially becoming a greater liability).
Why? Because we have the probability factor to consider. With only 4 copies of each, the chances of getting both in your opening hand are too slim for consistency. If you have 4 copies of both cards in your deck, there's only a 47% of getting either one in your hand. If you can get the first in your opening hand, that chance drops down to 40% that you will get the second. That's really low—and with cards like Teammates—it's very likely that the card will become dead-weight in every other opening scenario. It won't do enough on its own. And can become a sitting duck that doesn't enable you to make an advance with any Special Conditions or direct retrieval effects.
In addition to that, even the use of Ninja Boy (in attempts to avert a prize being collected) can ultimately result in two prizes being collected anyways (with no benefit whatsoever) in cases where you don't have a follow up attacker ready on the bench—to send in after you Ninja Boy into Celebi—and Celebi is then Knocked Out.
It can be counter-productive is what I'm saying, where there are far more prime strategies to consider (as well as far greater candidates for the selections).
Ok. So far all I can see is that there is a lot of confusion with the point of running a Celebi. Personally I think its a reasonable idea but the elephant in the room wearing a Liberace outfit which no one has mentioned yet is we already have had a card that could do this (Cassius) and that wasn't really used in any deck other than Wailord. I think that this idea could see some play but realistically ninja boy is going to be used for attack effects and energy acceleration.
The entire point is to only bring Celebi to the field via Ninja Boy when Celebi will be KO'd, ideally not giving up a Prize when its Ability triggers. There would be no waiting for your opponent to KO it. Don't worry though because
This is an excellent point and maybe what ReapTheWhirlwind was trying to get at, except he keeps bringing up stuff that doesn't actually apply to the situation (yes, that is a problem I share ^^'). So the short version is that there is little reason to bother with this combo. As it takes Ninja Boy and Celebi, running Cassius with Ninja Boy still allows you to pull off all the Ninja Boy combos while Cassius still allows you to get a Pokémon from play and all cards attached to it back into your deck and without a coin flip. Some decks due use Cassius for tricks like this already, but not many... so why would a less reliable two card combo make the trick better? A very bad oversight on my part, and I thank @Hornleach1 for pointing it out!
As @Otaku has surmised; the Ninja Boy into Celebi is a cute trick but I doubt it will see any play - mainly because Leap Through Time depends on a coin flip but also because Garbodor will (probably) huff and puff and blow your meta down after Worlds.
It's good to see people already thinking about the cool things that one can do with Ninja Boy though.
It's good to see people already thinking about the cool things that one can do with Ninja Boy though.
@Noel
That is just it though; so few decks use Cassius right now. If yours does then yeah, this can act as a replacement. It is two cards instead of one and less reliable, but opens up other combo opportunities.
@WastedSkyPirate
This is the Celebi with Θ Stop so Garbotoxin won't prevent its Ability. Funny, I went to look at the official scan/spoiler on Pokémon's own website and had to go elsewhere; the scan was a bit too small to read it and the spoiler didn't mention the Ancient Trait. XP
That is just it though; so few decks use Cassius right now. If yours does then yeah, this can act as a replacement. It is two cards instead of one and less reliable, but opens up other combo opportunities.
@WastedSkyPirate
This is the Celebi with Θ Stop so Garbotoxin won't prevent its Ability. Funny, I went to look at the official scan/spoiler on Pokémon's own website and had to go elsewhere; the scan was a bit too small to read it and the spoiler didn't mention the Ancient Trait. XP
Ah, sorry, of course it is. Good point.
Either way, I doubt this little trick will see play. The conditions for it to work will be rare and it doesn't really advance the game state for the user. I won't be throwing Celebi and Ninja Boy into my deck and aiming to switcheroo and Leap Through Time every game.
Yeah, my inner-Johnny* just got all excited at this combo, forgetting that we've had Cassius to do the same thing, reliably, and as a single card. >.> Still a nice exercise in looking for combos and if a deck already can make good use of Ninja Boy, who knows? Maybe Cassius is leaving right before we would have gotten a deck where it was amazing.
*If you have no clue who Timmy, Johnny, and Spike are with regards to TCGs, send me a PM.
Yeah, my inner-Johnny* just got all excited at this combo, forgetting that we've had Cassius to do the same thing, reliably, and as a single card. >.> Still a nice exercise in looking for combos and if a deck already can make good use of Ninja Boy, who knows? Maybe Cassius is leaving right before we would have gotten a deck where it was amazing.
*If you have no clue who Timmy, Johnny, and Spike are with regards to TCGs, send me a PM.
Haha, absolutely. My inner-Johnny is excited too!
Even though this trick doesn't seem all too competitive, this is why cards like Ninja Boy are good for the game; they encourage this kind of creative thinking.