#8: Education

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Do you think too much or too little importance is placed on education? If you could change the education system, what would you do?

I predict that this will become an extremely active thread. :)
 
BINGO, this is MY kind of subject! XD

Let's, where to begin of my list of 1000000000000000000 things I would like to see changed.

1. Get rid of the way the regular education is now. It was meant and designed to create factory workers, which as you all know, aren't around much anymore. (This has a lot of side effects of which most are rather positive but the list is just to long to name them one by one.

2. Pay more attention to the smarter kids in class, rather then helping them excel in the normal world, while they can do so much more.

I have to go now for a bit, I think I'll post more later.

PS Team World just started this subject as well. For those that are interested, check it out.
 
Primary school kids are patronised. In year 6 (I think thats 7th grade for americans) they were like: Now little children, today let's learn the story of the owl and the pussycat. If there are any words you don't understand, just ask me :)

Far too much emphasis is based on exams. You cannot get to know a person or work out where there skills lie from exam results. Universities should accept based on comments from the teachers, peices of corsework they have previously produced, their interviews and THEN the exam results at the end. If someone is a fantastic student, has a great character, really bright person, done a lot of good work but out of stress or for maybe other reasons failed all their exams, they won't be able to find a job.

Aside from that, we need younger teachers. Older people don't understand kids, simple as. The younger the teachers, often they communicate and intereact with the pupils better.

As well as that, teachers sallaries are appalling, meaning no-one wants to go into teaching, meaning good teachers to teach gifted pupils are rare. Often talents are undiscovered becasue of bad teaching.

Not enough emphasis is put into harnising childrens creativity. Its all comprehensions and maths papers. never writing a story or doing something creative.

And lastly, more fun needs to be put back into education. I really hate school, and its mostly because its boring. You learn, you study, you have exams, thats it. No fun.
 
@ Fridge, I agree with you, school is too boring. They really have to change it, making it fun again to learn. Giving the children the choice to learn things they want to know. I really want to learn more about biology, chemistry and physics, and most we get in the lessons I already know (cuz it's just easy -_-) and when I ask something difficult and something I want to know, the teacher says; ''Uhm... well... that's too difficult, I'm not going to talk about that, you'll learn it in a few years in the ?? grade. Or the worst is when the teacher even doesn't know the answer.

And yes, you're right, teachers don't understand children. The older people are... you know, they think what they do is the best cuz they've used their method for years and they're absolutely not going to change that. But we've some pretty young teachers too, but they think we're a bunch of babies and treat us like little kids :s But there's one teacher on my school (as far as I know), and he IS very good because he understands us, and knows how to give the best lessons. He talks with us about this problem too, so yeah it's fine to know some teachers know they're doing wrong and they've to change it.
 
Fridge said:
Primary school kids are patronised. In year 6 (I think thats 7th grade for americans) they were like: Now little children, today let's learn the story of the owl and the pussycat. If there are any words you don't understand, just ask me :)

Far too much emphasis is based on exams. You cannot get to know a person or work out where there skills lie from exam results. Universities should accept based on comments from the teachers, peices of corsework they have previously produced, their interviews and THEN the exam results at the end. If someone is a fantastic student, has a great character, really bright person, done a lot of good work but out of stress or for maybe other reasons failed all their exams, they won't be able to find a job.

Aside from that, we need younger teachers. Older people don't understand kids, simple as. The younger the teachers, often they communicate and intereact with the pupils better.

As well as that, teachers sallaries are appalling, meaning no-one wants to go into teaching, meaning good teachers to teach gifted pupils are rare. Often talents are undiscovered becasue of bad teaching.

Not enough emphasis is put into harnising childrens creativity. Its all comprehensions and maths papers. never writing a story or doing something creative.

And lastly, more fun needs to be put back into education. I really hate school, and its mostly because its boring. You learn, you study, you have exams, thats it. No fun.
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I agree on the patronization and the bias exams.

We in Holland have a dreadful exam called the CITO toets. I don't remember what it stands for, but every 12 y/o has to make it and it will determine pretty much the rest of the kid;s live in terms of what kind of follow up eduction and work it's going to have. Despite the huge amount of kids having failure angst, they still somehow believe that this test is healthy and promotes a better society. That's so fricking wrong!

Exams are just recordings of how a person does at that particular moment. If you are feeling bad, you will obviously score lower, which isn't taken into acount strangely enough.

I'd love nothing more then to see the current type of regular education die. Nowadays, kids don't just learn unhelpful stuff like history at school, they are expected to be raised by the parents of many children.

And really, how are you going to discover a kids talent without going 1on1 with it? I mean, most classes in Holland are way too crowded. I remember sitting in a class with 31 other kids and only 1 teacher.

Which brings me to the following: Bullying. The way the system is setup now, bullying given a chance because the teachers can't see what's going on when he/she has to watch thirty-ish kids all at once. I mean, when looking at that, only idiots would want to become teachers. Sure, low salary is a factor, but the stress of having to watch a few dozen kids while trying to teach, isn't the most healthy task to give your brain.

I can guarantee that you will only use 1% of the things you will be teached at 20 years of school in the rest of your life.

Team World's Education discussion

Pokequaza said:
@ Fridge, I agree with you, school is too boring. They really have to change it, making it fun again to learn. Giving the children the choice to learn things they want to know. I really want to learn more about biology, chemistry and physics, and most we get in the lessons I already know (cuz it's just easy -_-) and when I ask something difficult and something I want to know, the teacher says; ''Uhm... well... that's too difficult, I'm not going to talk about that, you'll learn it in a few years in the ?? grade. Or the worst is when the teacher even doesn't know the answer.

And yes, you're right, teachers don't understand children. The older people are... you know, they think what they do is the best cuz they've used their method for years and they're absolutely not going to change that. But we've some pretty young teachers too, but they think we're a bunch of babies and treat us like little kids :s But there's one teacher on my school (as far as I know), and he IS very good because he understands us, and knows how to give the best lessons. He talks with us about this problem too, so yeah it's fine to know some teachers know they're doing wrong and they've to change it.
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Indeed, the way it is now, it's too strict. There is zero freedom, you are being forced down useless info in your throat, into your brain, in the hope you will 'learn'. But what if you are not interested? They don't care (Usually not even parents care), as long as you'll lear, because people want you to 'advance'.

Uhm, here is a fun fact: Teachers only know how to teach, nothing else. That means they are not interested in going 1on1 with kids, try to understand how they work, or know what they teach. The last thing has been an issue in Holland numerous times.
 
If turning public schooling into more of a preschool for little kids is what you want Fridge, then you've got the right idea.

Seriously, though, if you look at almost any other country's education system (especially those of Europe and Industrial Asia) they've got it so much harder than we do - and I mean in a good way. The kids are pressured to study, they learn much harder material at much younger ages, and the competition is pressuring everybody to do there best. Here in the good ol' USA I don't see that anywhere. I live in Nevada, and last year 50% of our students failed their math proficiencies. There is little competition amongst the students, and a huge portion of them drop out. The recent trend to make school "fun" and less stressful has taken a huge turn for the bad imo.

Also, the purpose of high school is to prepare one for college. The way it is now, it does anything but that. High school is merely a public breeding ground for drama and people to get to know each other; that's not necessarily a bad thing, as those experiences are vital for growing up, but the jump from high school to college is usually too much to handle for many students. In high school, they're not pressured to create good study habits, get their work done on time, to think about their course selections, etc. When they finally get to college and realize that no, their professor won't take their work late for half-credit, if they don't study they'll fail the class, they're halfway through their schooling and realize that they chose the wrong major for themselves, and that worst of all their paying for all of this to happen, it sucks.

I have to go to work now but I'll try to get back into this thread later.
 
Bam said:
If turning public schooling into more of a preschool for little kids is what you want Fridge, then you've got the right idea.

Seriously, though, if you look at almost any other country's education system (especially those of Europe and Industrial Asia) they've got it so much harder than we do - and I mean in a good way. The kids are pressured to study, they learn much harder material at much younger ages, and the competition is pressuring everybody to do there best. Here in the good ol' USA I don't see that anywhere. I live in Nevada, and last year 50% of our students failed their math proficiencies. There is little competition amongst the students, and a huge portion of them drop out. The recent trend to make school "fun" and less stressful has taken a huge turn for the bad imo.

Also, the purpose of high school is to prepare one for college. The way it is now, it does anything but that. High school is merely a public breeding ground for drama and people to get to know each other; that's not necessarily a bad thing, as those experiences are vital for growing up, but the jump from high school to college is usually too much to handle for many students. In high school, they're not pressured to create good study habits, get their work done on time, to think about their course selections, etc. When they finally get to college and realize that no, their professor won't take their work late for half-credit, if they don't study they'll fail the class, they're halfway through their schooling and realize that they chose the wrong major for themselves, and that worst of all their paying for all of this to happen, it sucks.

I have to go to work now but I'll try to get back into this thread later.
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I urge you to adjust your view about European education quality. It sucks and it sucks HARD.....well, at least in Holland. When they see a straight A student, no one bothers asking if he'd like to pick up a challenge and give the kid harder material. In Holland no one is bothered poking kids around to learn the best they can. Instead, they don't know what to do with it and bully it around until it commits 'emotional suicide' in which every bit of talent is structurally destroyed. Being smart is fun in this educational system eh?

High school prepares for what? Bullying is okay? The more popular you are, the better you'll do later in life? Seriously, a lot can be said about high or middle schools and almost none of them are positive. I just refuse to believe that it's the ideal place to build live experiences.
 
Public school not fun? Yeah, I have heard about classes NOT being fun for the regular classes, but in our school system where we have the "regular classes" and the "advanced/Gifted and Talented classes", I can honestly say that the advanced classes are a blast. Of course, the material is easy to learn for most of us, and we could most likely take harder classes (AKA skip a grade), but most of us have fun being with the people that we have been going to school with for awhile. Being in the advanced classes where you don't spend a week on say the ecosystems and only spend a day or so covering the same material is actually way more fun. It hardly ever got boring (Also, science was the most fun class I've had so far, heading to high school though).

And the regular classes are a total joke. I had to be in one for an entire year because of double-elective conflicts, and I didn't learn anything new (except for stuff about the teacher's daughter. She never shut up about her daughter ugh). And I also knew that nobody in my class learned anything. As I was the only one who paid attention.

And before you say anything about my education system, I'm from Texas.:D Home of the many stupid state-and-district-mandated tests.

And for the age of teachers, yeah some old teachers are OLD (like the stereotype kind of old) and others are cool. But younger teachers do connect with the students more than the older ones.
 
I think in Elementary school they should give the kids more opitions on what to learn. In my school the 5th and 6th grades are able to do that but I think instead of just once a week we should try to do it at least twice a week.

I also agree about teachers ignoring the kids who are learning faster or are smarter. I was lucky this year, my math teacher was very good about that. I think it might be a good idea to have 2 classes for each subject one for the smarter kids and one for the not so smart kids.
 
The public school system is so flawed its not even funny. They focus on trivial stuff that really doesn't matter over class time. For instance my school has mandatory pep assemblies which bore me to tears (to the point that I've actually ditched), and when I tell my mom she tells me they used to be after school for her. Also this past year I was taking the practice SAT, and the material wasn't that bad, but they gave us like 30 minutes for like 20 (or 40 don't remember which) questions, which if your a slowish test taker like I am then you wouldn't finish it. Teacher wise I've gotten really lucky, however I've heard plenty of stories from friends and my sister of bad teachers, like teachers who get buddy-buddy with their students who are of a certain religion, and a teacher doing stuff like dumpster diving in an English class. Also is it just me or is the school system trying to turn us into passive little sheep.

Fixing the school system wouldn't be to hard. We could seperate the people who do want to go to school from those who don't, as those who don't want to go are often the trouble makers. Get rid of mandatory school events that only raise self-esteem. Take away or at least extend the time limit on tests (unless its already long enough for everyone to finish.) Make sure the teachers do their job and teach everyone. Lastly make kids want to assert themselves, so they're more successful in life. These are just a few ideas.
 
@ afstandopleren, yeah the schools here are horrible, you probably could be better be in prison than in school. The sad part is, teachers don't want to change their ways of working, they're scared to fail. They have to give way more freedom, here on my school they're trying a new system which allows you to skip lessons and follow other lessons (well ofcourse most abuse it). They're testing it on our class and another class, it's a start but not even 10% of the things they have to change.
 
Too little importance right now, obviously. I would scrap state mandated or standardized tests, for one. It's high time those leave forever.

dmaster out.
 
@Pokequaza:The teachers over here are sadly not in the position to change, it has to come from the principles or even from The Hague (Where the Dutch government is settled).

I have a link that is mainly Dutch about a program that aired a little while ago (March) on the Dutch television about education, asking what the main purpose of education is or what it should be.

Among the interviewees there were:
-Frank Furedi, British sociologist and author of: 'Where have all the intellectuals gone?' and more.
-John Moravec, works @ the Universiteit of Minnesota and author of: 'A New Paradigm of knowledge production in higher education.'

There were a couple of other people interviewed like some teachers that the interviewer had at school (including a women that I think is a real brain fart for a teacher in Latin which is a course included in the highest education form in Holland).

Now for the link (It's in Dutch): http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht/.../41571707/
And the link for the vid: http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht/.../41718783/
Basically (in the vid), it did cover both sides decently but the conservative side was strongly represented IMHO. You can watch it yourself as a decent part of the vid is English when the interviewer interviews Frank Furedi and John Moravec to see what they have to say.
Tegenlicht: Hoog vliegen in laagland said:
Rob Wijnberg in gesprek met Frank Furedi, Brits socioloog en auteur van o.a. het spraakmakende boek Where have all the intellectuals gone?, Robbert Dijkgraaf, hoogleraar wis- en natuurkunde en president van de Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, en John Moravec, werkzaam aan de Universiteit van Minnesota en auteur van A New Paradigm of knowledge production in higher education.

In deze laatste uitzending rond het thema “Excellence” gaan wij met een aantal experts op zoek naar antwoorden op de meest prangende vragen met betrekking tot onderwijs. Wat is er nodig voor een betere talentontwikkeling in Nederland en hoe kan dat samen gaan met meer diversiteit?

Met Frank Furedi analyseren we in bredere zin zijn maatschappijkritiek dat streven naar waarheid, het stellen van intellectuele en morele normen en het uitdagen van mensen (versus ‘gewoon gelukkig zijn zoals het is’) uit de gratie is geraakt. Vervolgens spitst zijn analyse zich toe op het onderwijs en wat daar volgens hem mee mis is. Maar Furedi is vooral interessant omdat zijn kritiek vooral ook een totale kritiek op de postmoderniteit is: slachtoffercultuur, anti-intellectualisme, kinderen niet durven uitdagen.

Robbert Dijkgraaf wijt een belangrijk deel van de problemen van het Nederlandse onderwijs aan het conservatisme van de academische en bestuurlijke elite in Nederland. Hoe bereiken we dat het Nederlandse hoger onderwijs een afspiegeling wordt van de samenleving en niet langer een witte aangelegenheid is? In Nederland lijkt het vocabulaire en de wil om hierin verandering te brengen te ontbreken. De algemene opvatting is dat, als je niet doordringt tot het hoger onderwijs, je gewoon niet goed genoeg bent. Wat zijn de gevolgen? Het Amsterdam University College mag geen prestigieus “white college” worden in een halfzwarte stad. Wat moet er dan volgens Dijkgraaf anders?

Met John Moravec gooien we alles over een andere boeg. Furedi en Dijkgraaf zijn namelijk, zo zou je kunnen zeggen, hopeloos ouderwets in hun systeemdenken: het onderwijs gaat al lang niet meer om het vergaren van kennis of het verwerven van macht. Macht is immers steeds meer gefragmenteerd: ieder zijn eigen waarheid/Google/Wikipedia. Is een elite dan nog wel nodig? Waarom excelleren als je alles al hebt? Waarom kennis vergaren als alles open source is? De postmoderne mens - en dus ook de jongere - heeft talloze identiteiten; waarom zou het onderwijs ze in een keurslijf moeten duwen?

De interviews worden gedaan door Rob Wijnberg, schrijver, gespreksleider en journalist bij NRC Next. De hoofdvraag die aan de interviews ten grondslag ligt is steeds de volgende: Waar is onderwijs eigenlijk voor bedoeld?
Om kinderen:
- zo hoog mogelijk te laten presteren (economisch)
- zo gelukkig mogelijk te laten worden (persoonlijk)
- zoveel mogelijk aan de samenleving te laten bijdragen (burgerschap)
Click to expand...

TRANSLATION:
Tegenlicht: Flying high in lowlands.

Rob Wijnberg (The interviewer) conversates with Frank Furedi, British sociologist and author of (among others) the thought invoking book Where have all the intellectuals gone?, Robbert Dijkgraaf, (high end?) Teacher in Mathematics(?) and nature studies(?) and president of the Royal Dutch Academy of Sciences, and John Moravec, works at the University of Minnesota and author of A New Paradigm of knowledge production in higher education.

In last episode surounding the “Excellence” theme we are going to visit a couple of experts in search of answers to the most burning questions that are involved in Education. What could be needed for talent development in Holland and how can that cooperate with more diversity?

(Authors note: This next part is VERY hard for me to translate. Any help with that would be great.)
With Frank Furedi we analyze in wider contexts the criticism towards society that searches for truth,being able to challenge the intellectual and moral values and being able to challenge people (versus ‘just being happy the way it is’) have been forgotten. Then his analysis narrows towards the educational system and what's wrong with it according to him. But Furedi is especially interesting because his criticism, especially his total criticism to the post modernity: victimization culture, anti-intellectualism, children that don't dare to be challenged.

John Moravec throws things completely around. Furedi and Dijkgraaf are, as you could say it, hopelessly old fashion in their way of thinking: The educational system hasn't been about gathering knowledge anymore for a long time or for the acquirement of power. Power is being fragmented more and more: everyone's own truth/Google/Wikipedia. Is an elite still necessary then? Why excel if you already have everything? Why acquire knowledge if everything open source is? The postmodern human - and thus the younger one too - has numerous identities; Why should the educational system force them through a straitjacket?

The interviews are being done by Rob Wijnberg, writer, discussion leader and journalist at NRC Next. The main question that revolves in the are the next: Where was the educational system actually meant for?
To let children:
- work the best they can? (economically)
- be the happiest they can be? (personally)
- be as contributive as they can be to society? (civilianship)
 
I think that schools can advance a lot by making things more digital. IN my school, computers aare for final copy typing, and rarely research. Having a laptop on each students desk would immensly upgrade education

~ Saves paper. Teachers Can send students assignments rather than printing 100 copies.
~ Typing is faster, and is easier to read.
~ For a presentation, would a kid rather lug around a tri-fold two times bigger than them, or a USB that can fit in their pocket?
~ Internet reseach is a snap.
~ Assignments are much safer in a digital state rather than a physical state where anything and everything can harm it.
~ Children can learn more about computers/robotics, which is the industry of tomorow.
~ Computers allow A LOT more possibility of assignments/learnig materials.
~ Schools get computers for free. I am 100% sure. Macantosh and microsofty both give for free since they klnow that if kids grow up with their computers, they'll continue to use them when they are adults.
~ Computer work takes less time then hand-made wok, giving more time for extra-curriclear classes, and physical activity.
~ Can be done at home.
~ Saves travel time and money
~ No more buying school supplies! (Maybe money for borrowing laptop?)
~ All you bring home is a USB! (and maybe a reading book) No text books, notebooks, pencils, etc! They can all be downloaded!
~ Extreme cost recuction will lower taxes, and enable districts to make more schools, and hire better teachers!

Good points?
 
Well Juliacoolo, would you give to Teenagers, expensive laptops which they can steal or break? Face it, the view of most teens is so corrupt we can't even be trusted with a paper bag.

Anyway on to the question, The system is so flawed it hurts to think about it. The teachers are extremely lazy, as long as they can teach us a pass that is fine. As soon as I demand a distinction level of work their like thats too much for me to handle (yeah right).

Luckily when I went to Year 10, we finally turned into sets. So I went to all top sets and I could finally mingle with my own kind, not the hooligans who sought out destruction for everyones lives.

I do agree with you Bam, I went through some of the work that people learn in America and it was of such a low level it was unbelievable.

The only way to succeed is to do it yourself
 
Despite teens can't be trusted with paper bags, that is generally because not a single parent (Exceptions do exist tho) knows how to raise a child so it behaves well and doesn't steal or break things on purpose. I also do believe that High School is a very BIG source of teen problems. Kids learing at home force parents to deal with their kids, be it right or wrong. In that case, would a class for parents be an idea on how to raise their kid to be a nice and responsible person?
 
Well of course the parents will have to sign a paper if they want their child to be able to bring the laptop home. If the parents don't want their child to bring home a laptop, the student should be able to connect to the school server through their home computer.
 
But not everyone has the money for a computer and agrees on signing the paper. There should be some solution to those 'exceptions'. But maybe that's just a flaw in the plan. But atleast the idea itself is 1 step forward in imho the right direction.
 
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