I actually quite disagree, when people get sick of it theyll just start teching Zeb into all their decks
Ah yes I missed that, its been a few weeks. I also run Silent lab in my Greninja deck so yeah youre right
Event 2016/17 London Internationals
- Thread starter Robert Belli
- Start date
You miss the fact that Zeb does nothing for any other meta-deck.
In the same way that Ranger, Hex, Karen, Skyla, Ton of Item cards like Enhanced hammer, Pokepuff, cards like buddy buddy rescue. There are also pokemon like Klefki, Unown, Zoroark, and Magerna EX that only help certain match ups and are dicarded never to be seen again like all the cards I listed. These are called techs. Im saying that if Yveltal becomes an issue people will start including lines to make sure that the match up is a lot easier. Look at Night March. People added all kinds of techs to try to counter it so that they would have a better match up. Its how meta works. Ive already started adding Zeb to my decks on TCGO and man is yveltal a joke. It cant recover after taking that prize trade 8 times out of 10. Running 2-2 is optimal and making sure you have one on the bench turn one almost always guarantees a turn 2 KO
Zebstrika could be included in any deck running DCE, meta or not, but is highly ineffective against anything non-fighting resistance. Though with the team skull grunt pandemic approaching, no decks with low energy counts will be safe from energy denial anymore.
Its just that most techs help against different match ups or are good cards even if not against that certain match up. You listet Zoroark there, but Zoroark does not only help in one match up, Zeb is different, because it is mostly useless against most other decks and you have dedicate at least 4 cards to it. Ranger, Hex, Karen and so on are just one offs and don't hurt that mutch if they are not helpful, Zeb does hurt lots in that match ups where it is useless.
Sure it will be worth to be included if Yveltal stays this dominant, but some other tech against it would be great.
Since it was produced as a promo card, I wonder what is the life span of that card (Yveltal EX).If there was a hall fame card, Yveltal EX would be at the top of my short list. If it sticks around next season, Wow, that card would have to go down as one of the longest dominating ever. What has it been? 3 or 4 years in standard play, maybe 5. Sorry trying to think when XY was released.
Anyways, from my understanding, a lot of players did tech for the card. Yveltal EX was able to outlast them. Mainly because when the tool card is dropped on Garabador, Yveltal EX an Baby Yveltals are still very efficient attackers. Slowing your opponent actually helps Yveltal EX because you can just keep stacking energy on it and Y cyclone it down, or just evilball for knock out. That has always been the most playable idea about yveltal EX is that there is no slowing card down, garbodor just makes it a bit better.
Anyways, from my understanding, a lot of players did tech for the card. Yveltal EX was able to outlast them. Mainly because when the tool card is dropped on Garabador, Yveltal EX an Baby Yveltals are still very efficient attackers. Slowing your opponent actually helps Yveltal EX because you can just keep stacking energy on it and Y cyclone it down, or just evilball for knock out. That has always been the most playable idea about yveltal EX is that there is no slowing card down, garbodor just makes it a bit better.
The irony is that Yveltal EX is probably the best example of a card done correctly rather than a card gone horribly wrong.
If you think of the card from a competitive standpoint, you're going to shout at me (most likely). However, if you think of it from a developer's standpoint trying to sell a product, think of the following:
1. Is Yveltal, a Legendary Pokemon, powerful in its own regard? Yes.
2. Does Yveltal EX have a way to support other copies of itself? Yes.
3. Will Yveltal EX be a card that will last for a long time, through multiple Metas, so that customers do not feel like their decks/strategies are simply being replaced? Yes.
4. Is Yveltal EX a balanced card in comparison to other Pokemon with similar Attacks? Yes. Mewtwo EX and Lugia EX can both attack with a single Double Colorless Energy. Yveltal EX needs more than one card to set up its attack.
5. Will the customer feel as if they are utilizing a Legendary Pokemon as their main Pokemon when they play the PTCG? Yes. (this applies to younger individuals more than older, but applies nonetheless)
While the damage manipulator in combination with +20 damage may have been a bit much, it would have been absolutely foolish to attempt to make Evil Ball any different. They could have replaced the idea completely, which would have made sense, but considered the R/D team wanted something that would show the potential strength of the Pokemon itself, I think this was the best they could do for the time. Granted, we now have an extremely consistent card that is very powerful, but on the same note, how many times have we actually had something like this be this consistent as a Pokemon, and more importantly, as a strategy? Not as often as you may think.
As far as stopping the card... I think it's going to take a lot of time and testing from the community. It is, without a doubt, the strongest deck at this current moment. That may change soon, but we will have to see.
-Asmer
Welcome back to the game and this message board. Pokebeach isn't cooperating with me tonight and even I'm sick of overly long posts, so I'm going to be a bit blunt because you've got some stuff that is really wrong in your post and you're copping an attitude about it.
- Pokémon-EX as a mechanic are not broken. Specific ones? Yes, but not all and not due to some inherent aspect of being a Pokémon-EX. I could draw the same (incorrect) conclusion about Supporter cards, Special Energy, etc.
- Garbodor isn't good for the game per se, but it was clearly intended to help balance out some phenomenal Abilities on several cards. Look at what Abilities are being used even with Garbodor present, and what most likely would be used if it was as easy to deal with as in Expanded play.
- While we have a situation where Tool removing Trainer cards would be welcome does not mean that all the options we still have in Expanded are suddenly balanced. Look at what they do, what they cost, and how they affect the metagame beyond a single relationship.
- Not one of your numbered examples, but you left the game a year ago and now things seem similar when you return; you did actually look to see what changed in the interim, right? There is a reason some people were arguing Garbodor wouldn't be this bad... because back then it wasn't.
The thing is what they choose to do with their formats. They reprinted a lot of their overpowered cards to the point to where they survived many formats. Yveltal EX should have been gone a lone time ago or at least another one should have been made. It has had like 5 EX cards now but they all were the same. At least to me, its clear they don't want the game to change. While I don't have a issue smashing these dark decks, I would like to see something else. As this point, I want to see a card that just KO's any dark Pokemon for the sake of nerfing the type completely.
Yeah sorry about that, day before exams and was a little pissed off after work
I actually didnt say any of the quotes, and I only agree with one. It was the Garbador being overpowered currently. I found all the quotes in other threads I was looking at before
now to say what I truly think. Garbador was created because they had to balance out Greninja Break. They obviously knew that they would rotate XY-PHF, and then there would be no tool removal. This was a plan by them to see how powerful a card like that truly is. I have nothing wrong with that, but I think enough is enough. Greninja is gonna be op until something else can compete with it. That is what Sun and Moon is looking like its gonna do. Honestly nothing can balance that card apart from garb.
- Now another thing is that EXs in general are very OP and are actually what turned me off from this game when they first came out. I came from a format where Rare candy was important, and setup could take up to five turns. Now I can setup 2 Mega Gards in 1 turn. Thats a huge change of pace in less than four years. Even back then in BW with Colress machine you could setup Genesect EX in two turns. Now this change was definitly for the better as the game gets bigger and bigger and tournaments have more people they had no choice but to do it. I just personally dont like EX. I dont think GX will change my opinion much, but it goes closer to the format I once really enjoyed. Ive been holding onto a play set of SR Rare Candy for just over 3 years I think. I hoped one day I could actually use it, and in the past four years I havent really been given the chance. Apart from Trev, Vespiquen and Greninja no other Non EX decks are just super competitive at a high level. No competitive decks even run rare candy, its too slow. We went from a format where Rare Candy sped the game up light years to being considered slow only a year later. This is my bone with EX. I want to say that GX will really bring me back, and idk maybe it will. I havent been this excited in a long time Otaku. I know this became a little personal, but at least youve heard my true opinion. Hopefully ill get to use that play set in the near future. Im sorry I sounded like an ass in the last post, but like really dont like our current format, and the only reason im actually back is because im hoping to god that Sun and Moon saves this shitshow of a format, and this abomination that was 2012-2016 for the TCG (my opinion feel free to disagree)
I agree with everybody! There are lots of good points. I think the issue with me, because I'm a QAE in real life, revolves around why pokemon swing pendulum so hard after each set. I wish each set had slight variation swings versus huge dramatic ones. Instead of jumping off cliffs every time, I'd like to see them jump off box jumpers instead. It just seems they chase their tail a bit because they push each meta with huge swings. Even adding the +20 yveltal is curious to me, why not +10 - plus another promo card? But releasing it as a promo card really told me that they believe the card is balanced. I guess in my area of expertise huge swings in a product line is not standard. You sort of build up to huge swings every 3 to 5 years because huge swing can get tiresome to the consumer if their are constant problems with them. Pokemon builds in huge swings with every set release that creates constant problems in the format. It's curious and fascinating that this appears to work for them.
Apology completely accepted.
Yeah, the opposite of most of those quotes I feel (as in "no I have not been literally keeping track") I run into all the time. S'why I really get annoyed at people complaining Pokémon-EX are broken then the problem is the overall approach to game design by TPC, which I'll get to in a bit.
I had to think about this; at first I wanted to say that Garbodor was the answer to various other potent Abilities but that isn't true because we already have other answers to them. We still have Silent Lab to at least harass (if not outright counter) Basic Pokémon with important Abilities like Shaymin-EX (ROS) and Volcanion-EX. Greninja (BKP) can shut down everything else and still enjoy Abilities on its own turn. Hex Maniac is still very good as well; it may only be for one turn, but you can try and time it so that its basically one sided and a single copy can be reused via VS Seeker; even without Battle Compressor for easy access to a TecH copy, it still tends to come in handy.
So... yeah, Garbodor (BKP) seems like overkill. Well, unless we accept that some or perhaps even all of the other Ability reliant cards are overly powerful, in which case it... still causes problems but you can kind of see what they were trying to accomplish. The counter for Garbodor that proved to be a myth is Lysandre followed by a OHKO; too many decks need their Abilities as part of set up, and even without extreme measures (Wally) that meant said decks had one turn to prep an attacker, keep it alive, and then have Lysandre handy to take down Garbodor.
Here is where I'm going to explain what it is you are missing.
If Pokémon was properly balanced then both players ought to have the time to manually Evolve from Basic to Stage 2. Any deck strategy that kicks into gear with a strong offense before the opponent hits their third turn is really too fast. It doesn't have to be OHKO's either; some decks could set up locks, effective damage spread, etc. that was of a similar value.
Your recollection of the past is either inaccurate or incomplete (sorry I'm in a hurry, so if this was phrased harshly, I apologize). Before Pokémon-EX, you still needed your deck to kick into gear by your second turn, and the fastest decks would work first turn of the game. Shortly before Black & White released the first turn rules reverted to their original form; no attacking first turn, and this did not change until I think around the release of XY: Kalos Starter Set (just before XY itself released). At the time Black & White released, we still had access to the cards from the HS-block (plus Call of Legends). How about a mono-Basic deck that could swing for 120 damage first turn of the game? We had that; Zekrom (BLW), Pachirisu (CoL), Shaymin (UL). There were also Reshiphlosion decks using Reshiram (BLW) and Typhlosion (HS); a tad slower than ZPS but perhaps more reliable.
You also had to deal with pre-errata Pokémon Catcher, which was Lysandre but as an Item. Before Pokémon Catcher you just faced Pokémon Reversal spam; Pokémon Reversal functioned like a post-errata Pokémon Catcher, but the card pool at that time contained Junk Arm (Item - Discard 2, add Item from discard pile to hand). Even before Black & White and its rule changes, you had Pokémon Prime, many of which were quite strong and thanks to pre-errata Rare Candy hit the field first turn. Now all of this may not sound like a problem. Variety in Stages, right? Wrong. The top 5-15% of the card pool still left the rest in the cold, and it could still get pretty boring during the stretches between a new deck shaking things up.
Pokémon-EX finally gave the designers a way to model the power of Legendary Pokémon but in a balanced manner. Unfortunately for all of us, the designers don't really like what I consider to be game balance, so just as they were overpowering everything else via their design approach, they did the same thing to many Pokémon-EX. We know it isn't just Pokémon-EX themselves though, or we wouldn't be having a problem; aren't we partially in this mess with Garbodor (BKP) because Beedrill-EX isn't actually strong enough?
