Discussion Trash Talk: Garbodor's Role Post-Rotation

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by My Little Keldeo, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. My Little Keldeo Submarine Reflection!
    My Little Keldeo

    Forum Mod Activities Staff Chat Room Staff Advanced Member Member

    Hey Pokebeach! With the 2018 rotation officially announced, my testing partners and I have begun preparations for the new format, BREAKThrough on. We're losing several key cards, which will vastly change the way decks are constructed in Standard. I'd like to talk about the impact the rotation will have on one of the most influential cards we've seen in a long time, Garbodor GRI, and also to some extent its cousin, Garbodor BKP.

    Arguably the most notable card that is being rotated out is Vs Seeker, which since its introduction in Phantom Forces has made Supporter cards reusable, and far easier to access. Discarding Supporter cards, even an important one-of is less of an issue when you have up to four cards in your deck that will let you retrieve it. The spaces created by the loss of this card will likely be replaced by Supporters, leading to a more conservative playstyle. Four Professor Sycamore and four N will likely be become the norm, as they were before Vs Seeker was introduced. Some decks may opt to run up to four copies of Guzma as well, depending on how central it is to its strategy and the benefits it brings.

    The end result of this is a drop in the number of Item cards being played, as well as a slower format. Garbodor itself has already been very influential, with decks reducing their Item count to control Trashalanche's damage. But losing Vs Seeker is up to 80 less damage that can be dealt, assuming they are to be replaced with additional Supporter cards. Of course, this hasn't stopped Garbodor from taking home some big prizes, including the North American International Championships/ I expect it to have a showing at Worlds as well. However, after rotation deck construction will change drastically, which can have big impact on Garbodor's role. Lower Item counts and more conservative play will limit Trashalanche's damage output. Combined with unprecedented amounts of HP seen on powerful Stage 2 Pokemon-GX, Trashalanche will fall short of hitting the important numbers.

    Nonetheless, Trashalanche is still a powerful attack and can ruin a player who has played recklessly or was forced to play many Items to get set up. While I don't think it's going to be quite as dominant as it has been moving forward, an attack like that for just one Energy is hard to ignore, and it can still be a looming threat. Any deck with Psychic or Rainbow Energy can consider running a small line. Just having it on the Bench will affect the opponent's playstyle, and coax them into playing a slower game.

    There is also the matter of Garbodor BKP. With Silent Lab and Hex Maniac gone, this remains the only form of Ability lock that can be worked into several decks, since Greninja BKP requires the entire deck to be dedicated to it. Even with Field Blower, this is still a highly disruptive effect for many decks, as in order to regain use of Abilities you must actually have your Field Blower in hand, and even then the Garbodor player will likely attach another Tool card on their next turn. This means you will need to save your Field Blowers for a critical moment to get the most of your Abilities against Garbodor. With or without Garbodor GRI, I think Garbotoxin is something you'll be seeing more of, especially in "Anti-meta" and rogue decks.
     


  2. Cobrafilms Aspiring Trainer
    Cobrafilms

    Member

    I think that Garbodor GRI will fall off the competitive scene. This isn't to say it won't be good; just not seen in every T-8 around the country.

    Like you mentioned, with the loss of VS Seeker, we will have to play thicker supporter lines and less items. Obviously, less items = less damage.
    It won't pose the same threat that it does now. All decks will have 3-6 less items on average, and even if you burn through your deck, Garbodor still can't get the right numbers on 200+ HP GXs.
     
  3. Kietharr Aspiring Trainer
    Kietharr

    Member

    Garbodor will always be around so long as it's in rotation, it will be a meta balancing act though

    Garb comes back > Decks slow down > Garb falls off > Decks speed up > Garb comes back, ect.
     
    Elray likes this.
  4. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I think Garb will see less play simply because many key cards are going away. The biggest one being VS Seeker, which many decks run four of. I also think Professor Sycamore will see less play in favor of slower setup cards and outside of Ultra Ball for Tapu Lele-GX for Pokemon Fan Club or Bridgette for setup. Most opening turns will be very lite on Item usage, even in non-Garb matchups. Since the meta is becoming more evolution based, we will see a increase in Rare Candy and decks that opt to run Stage 1 Pokemon will run (may run) Muscle Dumbbell. I also expect to see Field Blower counts going to about three per deck.

    Naturally Garb has partners that make the opponent do something they don't want. Drampa-GX is really good at putting on pressure, which means more item usage or very unfavorable Professor Sycamores for your opponent. Po Town is getting printed which can be a tool for Garb since you can damage your own Pokemon for Berserk and with the increase of Pokemon Tool cards being ran (almost six per deck), you have access to 120 additional damage through Field Blower usage, some I expect to see more play since many of the must have Stadium cards are rotating.

    I do think Garbodor will see less play in favor of other things since players are adapting to Garb decks but I feel it still has the tools to do well since late game (which is where it does best), the opponent will still have a decent number of Items in the discard pile.
     
  5. Dark Espeon Dark Avatar
    Dark Espeon

    Member

    Personally I do not think that Garbodor decks will vanish from the top tables with the rotation. Besides Decidueye most top decks already removed Trainer's Mail from their list. This leaves us with three to four cards that are now rotate, namely Vs Seeker. Two of these slots might be devoted to two more physical copies of draw trainers to compensate for this loose. I assume the remaining ones will be spend on consistency or utility items. Thus item counts only slightly decrease. Nevertheless the lack of Vs Seeker may slightly change how people play and it may take a little longer until Garbodor is able to hit numbers. However he also obtained a few new tools. One of them is Po Town. In a more evolution focused meta this stadium is much more usefull than Magma's Secret Base since it places the damage counters on Garbodor instead of the GX attackers. it can also help to get defending evolutions into ohko range for either Garbodor or his minions if the opponent is unable to replace it.
     
  6. Hiker Tony Aspiring Trainer
    Hiker Tony

    Member

    I agree that Garb is going to yo-yo in and out of the top 8. It will be interesting to see if it stays popular once BKP Garb rotates next year. The thing about Garb GRI is that it won't come back in response to an archetype getting popular, ie weakness against whatever type is currently winning. I will end up getting popular whenever the meta starts to speed up and get too comfortable. Probably there will always be couple of people showing up playing Garb and doing well when everyone else is betting lazy.

    As far as VS Seeker being lost, either Puzzle of time will skyrocket (I imagine it will at least for a time) or people are going to be running 12-15 draw supporters standard. Or maybe even both things.

    I hate playing against Garb, but the closer we get to rotation, the more I appreciate what I believe it will do for the meta. Except for Gardevior GX. I'm not really looking forward to that being successful....
     
  7. Fayld Rayquaza / Eelektross Master
    Fayld

    Member

    I honestly think the main reason the deck won't see as much play is because there are multiple decks that are just better. Volcanion is going to get a big boost (again) with this next set. Which means we should see a healthy dose of Ninetales and to a much lesser extent a worse version of Greninja and Lapras in its various forms. Gardevoir GX looks like a freaking monster...which means it is pretty likely we see a healthy dose of Metagross...which fuels more Volcanion. That new Golosipod deck is going to be a thing. Every deck in the format gets access to Guzma which greatly reduces the effectiveness of the Espeon Gardobor variant. Also add in the fact that ShaeBae is gone meaning people are going to go even further in finding alternate means for pokemon based draw power. Finally, losing FoGP is going to play huge in this format. It drastically reduces the power of a couple decks

    Long story short, I think VS Seeker going away is just one part of the story. I think a couple new supporters and a couple new pokemon are going to do every bit as much, if not more to push Trashalanche down as anything we are losing.
     
    Elray likes this.
  8. JDA Aspiring Trainer
    JDA

    Member

    Just registered again after roughly 10 years of absence but I do agree with the initial analysis. The format has become slower and because of that tempo cards like Tools are less of a common inclusion because of the simple room they thake up and the lower ammount of "just basics" in decks. Due to the decline of EX count, incline of important Stage 1 and Stage 2 I think it's very save to say that the game is in a pace I personally like it the most.
    Slow but less punishing and more time to build up, which in my experience means the format can carry many more viable cards as it usually does with the fast formats who simply have a heavier no than yes inclusion.

    As for Garbodor, I personally think he'll stick around, but as a side-guy, much less popular as he is this month compaired to the upcomming. However I have the vague idea that he too will have a GX eventually. As Garbodors are quite popular, which in turn would blow new life into the deck as soon as you can switch from a fast one to a more sturdy one.
     
  9. DarkMatterGaming "Wait, he's not dead?"
    DarkMatterGaming

    Member

    The thing that just occurred to me regarding Garbodor is that Item cards can now be stronger as long as Garbodor (or a card similar enough) is there to check it. In a strange sense, it actually opens up a lot of design choices for the TCG because of this one card. Every time there's going to be a set with strong Items, Garb will be that omnipotent threat that keeps them in check.

    Even if he doesn't make any appearances in decks, he'll influence deckbuilding regardless, which I think is a fantastic.
     
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  10. JDA Aspiring Trainer
    JDA

    Member

    I completely agree! I think that the upcomming format is great and full of checks. Because while most seem to dislike Machamp GX I personally think there is a room for him in a meta that is filled with Electric, Colourless or Darkness Pokemon, a meta that isn't too far from the current situation and one that suffers from the likes of sturdy fighting decks.

    With this I feel that there are a lot of checks for all sides, Flareon EX with Kaiwe remains incredibly potent to my eyes on paper but so is much more. I feel the whole colour spectrum will be represented as soon as Burning Shadows hits the market.
     
  11. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I don't want that at all. Items should help win games, not win them outright. Item cards need to be less powerful in general and used a utility. I'm also not a fan of printing more power things because something exist to check it. I rather people play what they like then having to run Garb.
     
  12. DarkMatterGaming "Wait, he's not dead?"
    DarkMatterGaming

    Member

    I didn't say that they should, just that they have can. In addition to that, it's not saying that people have to run Garb but his presence is going to influence how people build a deck. It doesn't matter how powerful a certain item card is if you never get to use the full benefit of it when you run into Garb variants.

    His presence makes the game more about meta calls and risk versus reward. I find it fascinating and wonder how things are going to pan out.
     
  13. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    Powerful Items will be used even if Garb is around. If they made a item card that let the player draw three cards without any restriction, players will run four it because it will be good against anything else not Garb. It will be good against Garb too. Also keep in mind that Garb can run these powerful items as well and as of now, Garb is powerful because it can run item heavy and still win exchanges.
     
  14. DarkMatterGaming "Wait, he's not dead?"
    DarkMatterGaming

    Member

    But then if every deck uses it, Garbodor's usage should rise again due to the omnipresence of Items. If and when that were to happen, people would adjust their decklists again, Garb fades away temporarily and the cycle begins anew. Besides that, this is all based off a hypothetical situation where Items become stronger even though Burning Shadows disproves this theory for right now.

    We've seen the impact he's had, though; people began cutting items out of their lists. While Garb is still a strong card right now, players have adjusted their playstyle to accommodate for his impact.

    All I'm saying here is that Garb's influencing the game both play-wise and deck-wise in a positive direction.
     
  15. Fayld Rayquaza / Eelektross Master
    Fayld

    Member

    My main issue is that it hits for wea
    As @crystal_pidgeot is saying, the issue with this approach is that Garbodor can still use items without penalty meaning you either play a deck that plays far fewer items and is handicapped to some extent (which is what happened post GUR) or you play a Garbodor variant and no longer have to worry about it. I get that there is always a top deck in format. Heck, post SUM that deck was Deciplume and you either ran something that beat it, or you ran it. The difference is that "running something to beat it" didn't punish consistency cards like Trainer's Mail for being used. It simply meant you needed to tech another Lysandre or Hex Maniac to beat it. Garbodor punishes consistency and I think that is garbage. If there was a way to pull some non-tool items back out of your discard pile and into your deck, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But there isn't.

    The only real saving grace is that there are decks coming into Standard that are decisively better than Garbodor which should limit its impact. It will still be there lurking, but it won't make up 50% (or more) of the field.
     
    crystal_pidgeot likes this.
  16. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    What I want to add to the above is Pokemon banned Archeops because it restricted play and it forced players to run cards to maybe get around it. I have always said that people should be able to play any deck they want without having to hard counter another and if the meta becomes like that, then something is out of wack.
     
  17. Ms Hugo Aspiring Trainer
    Ms Hugo

    Member

    Well, BKP Garb is the only reliable way to shut down abilities without it being active (Greninja and Wobb have to be active to shut down opposing abilities) so I think that Garb will definitely see play as a 2-of in a lot of decks. The other Garb will probably be included as a 1 or 2 of, depending if said deck runs Psychic energy or not.

    As for the overall item metagame, the lack of VS Seeker is obviously an issue - however, VS Seeker being gone means you get less uses out of Sycamore, for example. As a result, evolution decks can't Sycamore to try and hit their evolution Pokemon, so may start running Timer Ball. Puzzle of Time has also been touted, and you wouldn't run any less than 4 of that. So these items MIGHT make up for the deficit in VS Seekers that we're now going to start seeing.

    As other people have said, players might start underestimating Garb now Seeker and Trainers Mail have gone. This may not be a great idea. Plus, we don't know what items are coming in the future...
     
  18. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    To be honest with you, I think the meta might move to Trev/Garb with the higher Supporter counts, with a focus on Trev and lot Garb, like you suggest.
     
  19. PMJ :[
    PMJ

    Articles Staff Activities Staff Badges Staff Elite Member Advanced Member Member

    You can already play whatever deck you want. No one is stopping you from trying to cut with a meme deck but if you're going to play competitively then you need to be prepared to face competitive decks. There will always be a best, and there will always be people who play the best because it's the best. If players don't want to play that deck, then they find decks that can stand up to it. If you want to win, that's how it is. The game doesn't care that Pidgeot isn't viable. If you wanna use it, fine, but don't complain that it has a poor matchup against the top decks that people are using. Find a way to give your deck the best shot against the top decks and then go from there. That's what you should be doing instead of complaining that best bird gets beat by any deck worth a damn.

    And your example with Archeops is flawed. Archeops has been legal in Expanded since its inception. There have been a zillion Expanded tournaments, and Maxie's Yveltal has topped its fair share of them. But evolution decks have also topped just as often. What took them so long to ban Archeops, when Shiftry was banned almost immediately once AOR dropped? Because Archeops only now has the potential to be truly stifling. The meta has shifted from Basic-centric decks to Evolution-centric ones, and not every deck runs Eevee. Leaving Archeops in a format full of evolved Pokemon would truly be cancer. That's literally it. It was fine when only a small handful of decks ran evolved Pokemon, but now that the focus is on evolving, Archeops has to go.

    There is nothing wrong with having to hard counter something if hard countering it gives your deck a [better] shot at winning. Garbodor is actually a very good example of this. People underestimated how powerful Trashalanche was and they got destroyed, allowing it to sweep that regs or whatever. Note how it hasn't done that since then? People adapted. Now the meta is nice and healthy full of non-Garbodor decks :) They realized that Garbodor was a threat and changed their decks accordingly to fight it. They didn't say "oh but I like running 30 items in my deck, ban Garbodor!" Well maybe some people did but they're scrubs.

    Bad players whine. Good players adapt.

    I don't think it's exactly true to say that Garbodor variants have can use items without being punished, because they also have to fear Trashalanche. Every Garbodor variant runs at least one GX, so falling behind in the prize trade is something they need to worry about. This is especially true for Espeon variants, who have to all but avoid playing items altogether and shift their entire strategy just to stand a chance.

    I also don't think it's fair to say that Garbodor only punishes consistency. Strictly speaking, yes it does; items exist to help make decks consistent, and Garbodor punishes item usage. Again, though, that isn't entirely fair to say. I think it's more accurate to say that Garbodor punishes excessive item usage. Gone are the days where everyone Shaymins twice a turn and ends their first turn with < 30 cards in the deck. Sure, Trainer's Mail has all but vanished from players' decks, but there weren't many other casualties than that. Players just had to get more innovative with how their decks were built. Hoopa-EX was replaced in Volcanion by Brooklet Hill, and Starmie has become a staple instead of a meme. Brigette has become relevant for the first time since it was printed. Tapu Lele-GX can pull any Supporter you want from your deck, allowing you to conserve resources, instead of forcing you to Set Up three times in a turn trying to dig for it.

    Garbodor is always going to be a threat because it's a one-Prize attacker who attacks for unlimited damage for only one energy. Its strength late game is held only in check by the fact that Trashalanche costs [P] and not [C], thank christ. Every player will be forced to respect it as they build their decks, which I think is the entire point. Threats have come out that have invalidated or nerfed existing threats all the time, but this is the first time in a long time that players have been forced to change the way they approach deckbuilding as opposed to simply building a different deck the same way.
     
  20. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    @PMJ a number of things.

    I don't understand where all the passive-aggressiveness is coming from. I don't know what you mean by "meme" decks and fyi, I'm speaking as a competitive player. The goal is to not force players to play one deck to bet another, no matter what deck they want to play. There are a lot of competitive decks.

    I haven't mentioned Pidgeot once - like at all. My personal deck, (which has positive matchups against other top decks) wasn't the reason I made this post. If someone wants to play a deck that functions, they should be able to do so without worrying about being locked out of the game before they even get a turn. I'm actually not bad at this game.

    How so? The problem with Pokemon is the players can't evolve (pun). I'm still fighting for side decks in Pokemon. I want Pokemon to function more as a card game that cares. Pokemon didn't want to do best of three. Pokemon didn't want to use a ban list. These things are what made the game a joke. A ban list show they care about the game. Archeops being in Expanded for years means nothing. The fact it was the first card to take a hit on the official ban list mean it was a factor in deciding to make the list in the first place. It doesn't matter when a card gets banned either. They could also ban Greninja BREAK, something I could realistically see. It don't matter why they ban a card but no one played Archeops the way it was intended to be played, which is what balanced it.

    I don't really like hard counters that are successful. Making Silver Bullets to beat Silver Bullets is a fast way to ruin a format. Players will adapt and will shine aboe those who don't. I don't like Garbodor because it's a Silver Bullet that didn't need to exist. They only made it because of their design quality of Item card rather than fixing the problem. They could have banned the problem cards. Now we have another Silver Bullet in the form of Gardevoir-GX, that was designed to beat it. On top of that, they also put Trevenant in the same set as Garbodor, which effectively undoes what they were trying to do in the first place.

    In my experience, good players see nothing wrong with FoGP and Archeops getting banned. I actually wonder why?

    Well, it is true. Garbodor doesn't care about getting hit with Trashalanche, since it dies in one hit anyway. They can afford to run more Item cards because of it. The big difference here is the deck isn't completely two Prize attackers, like most of the meta is. Garbodor has its own problems but Item usage isn't one of them.

    Garbodor absolutely punishes consistency. If you start badly against Garb, you're done. You need to be decently fast against them and if you brick, you need your items to get going. Being forced to play Ultra Ball is the worst feeling because you didn't start one of the many ways to get Pokemon in play.

    Yeah, it will always be a threat and that was the point of why they made it but it seems they are using it as a way to make questionable cards rather than just making well designed cards.
     

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