Discussion Trash Talk: Garbodor's Role Post-Rotation

[PMJ]

Going back and forth with you is my new favorite pastime.

I don't understand where all the passive-aggressiveness is coming from. I don't know what you mean by "meme" decks

Bad decks, basically, but not so bad that people look at it and go "yeah that's bad." Decks that are so bad it's good. B]

and fyi, I'm speaking as a competitive player. The goal is to not force players to play one deck to bet another, no matter what deck they want to play.

Except this is not now nor has it ever been the goal. At no time in this game's history, with the only exception possibly being before the emergency rotation, have players been forced to play any deck just to beat a given deck. People might complain about whatever the BDIF is but the weakness mechanic means there will always be a deck that beats it. And there will always be a deck that beats that, and so on. Complaining about the BDIF is useless because there will always be one. If you don't want to play it or a deck that beats it, at least make sure you don't get throttled by it.

I haven't mentioned Pidgeot once - like at all.

You don't have to. I know it sits in the back of your mind every time you post about the state of the meta and how shitty it is.

My personal deck, (which has positive matchups against other top decks) wasn't the reason I made this post.

If Pidgeot has positive matchups against the meta, why hasn't anyone else figured it out yet? Do you think the competitive community as a whole is dumb or something?

If someone wants to play a deck that functions, they should be able to do so without worrying about being locked out of the game before they even get a turn.

This is part of why Forest of Giant Plants is getting banned.

I'm actually not bad at this game.

Do you have any results to back that up?

How so? The problem with Pokemon is the players can't evolve (pun).

We do it literally with every set that comes out and after every major tournament. If players didn't evolve, Garbodor would still be curb stomping the meta and we'd all be scratching our heads asking why. That's just one example.

I'm still fighting for side decks in Pokemon.

This is probably not going to happen. I feel like deckbuilding skill becomes much less important when you can simply swap out dead cards you don't need. The goal is to be able to have an answer for most threats, not all of them.

I want Pokemon to function more as a card game that cares.

A ban list show they care about the game.

So which is it? Do they care or not?

Pokemon didn't want to do best of three. Pokemon didn't want to use a ban list.

[citation needed]

These things are what made the game a joke. A ban list show they care about the game.

I don't understand. Using a ban list makes them a joke but also shows they care?

Archeops being in Expanded for years means nothing.

Yes it does; it means it wasn't ban worthy.

The fact it was the first card to take a hit on the official ban list mean it was a factor in deciding to make the list in the first place.

No, Shiftry was the first card banned, remember? Technically, that was the start of the ban list; they just haven't been public about keeping an Expanded ban list until very recently.

It doesn't matter when a card gets banned either.

Yes it does. It matters a lot. Take Aggron DRX as an example. It has an Ability that lets you discard the top 3 cards of your opponent's deck when you evolve it. That isn't broken by itself, but if sometime down the line PCL made a Forest of Giant Robots that let you evolve Metal Pokemon instantly, Aggron would probably get banned. Does that mean that Aggron was broken the whole time? Of course not. All that matters is that it's broken now. Archeops was good then, but it's unhealthy now because the meta has shifted to favor evolution, and nothing has changed in Expanded to make Maxie any harder to use.

They could also ban Greninja BREAK, something I could realistically see.

Don't count on it. It's good, but it's nowhere near good enough to warrant a ban. It's slow, still folds to Weakness, struggles against Garbodor (you can't count on having Field Blower 100% of the time you get locked), and suffers from consistency issues. Lurantis beats the shit out of it and that alone is enough to keep it unbanned.

It don't matter why they ban a card

I don't know if you meant to say this but yes of course it matters why they ban a card.

but no one played Archeops the way it was intended to be played, which is what balanced it.

Right - and it still wasn't considered unhealthy until just now. Do you think that PCL simply makes cards with no idea how they're going to function in Expanded? PCL was fully aware of Archeops's existence and must have thought it was acceptable because otherwise Maxie would not do what it does, or they would limit it to only Stage 2 Pokemon, or something.

I don't really like hard counters that are successful. Making Silver Bullets to beat Silver Bullets is a fast way to ruin a format.

Garbodor doesn't exist to beat a specific Pokemon, it exists to stop people from flying through their decks on the first turn. And it worked! People changed how they built decks and now Garbodor is fine. It's just another threat you have to prepare for, simple as that.

Players will adapt and will shine aboe those who don't.

So adapt instead of complaining all the time.

I don't like Garbodor because it's a Silver Bullet that didn't need to exist. They only made it because of their design quality of Item card rather than fixing the problem.

If that's the way you feel, I'm curious as to what you think item cards of good quality are. Because even if all those cards existed, that wouldn't solve the problem of massive item usage because people would just play your good quality items. Garbodor fixed the problem. You can now play all the items you want, but you'd better be prepared to eat a 240-damage Trashalanche if you do.

They could have banned the problem cards.

No one item is worth banning. Or are you talking about banning Shaymin-EX, which allowed players to draw umpteen cards a turn anyway?

Now we have another Silver Bullet in the form of Gardevoir-GX, that was designed to beat it.

Gardevoir-GX was not designed to beat Garbodor. Twilight GX has a thousand more uses than simply recycling your items. Sure, it basically invalidates Trashalanche for the rest of the game, but that just means that Garbodor players will need to adapt and find ways to get around Twilight GX. Like using alternate attackers, which is what they already do.

On top of that, they also put Trevenant in the same set as Garbodor, which effectively undoes what they were trying to do in the first place.

Or it just makes Trevenant viable

In my experience, good players see nothing wrong with FoGP and Archeops getting banned. I actually wonder why?

Because some people will say "adapt" no matter what the circumstance is. Archeops is stifling evolution decks? Don't play evolution decks. If you do, then recognize Archeops is a threat and play ways to beat it. It's been legal for years so there's no reason to start banning it now. etc etc

Well, it is true. Garbodor doesn't care about getting hit with Trashalanche, since it dies in one hit anyway. They can afford to run more Item cards because of it. The big difference here is the deck isn't completely two Prize attackers, like most of the meta is. Garbodor has its own problems but Item usage isn't one of them.

Did you read everything I said, or did you just stop and immediately shoot off after you read the first sentence? Garbodor doesn't care about getting hit with Trashalanche, but everything else in the deck does. You can run all one-Prize attackers and still get crushed by Trashalanche by being careless with your items, but chances are you dropped a Lele to help you set up and that's easy pickings for Garbodor.

Garbodor absolutely punishes consistency.

Okay, yes, I said that, pay closer attention to what I said. I said it was not fair to say that Garbodor only punishes consistency, and the only reason that's true is because you can only play one Supporter a turn and any cards you obtain outside of that have to come from your items. Running more items makes your deck consistent, Garbodor punishes item usage, therefore Garbodor punishes consistency. I get it; you're just not seeing the whole picture.

If you start badly against Garb, you're done.

Depends on how bad your start is, but this is true for any deck, not just Garbodor. Don't forget, they might brick too; I have escaped many bad starts by having my opponent N me out of a shitty hand (only to get an even worse hand in return).

You need to be decently fast against them and if you brick, you need your items to get going. Being forced to play Ultra Ball is the worst feeling because you didn't start one of the many ways to get Pokemon in play.

You can pay Ultra Ball's cost by discarding Pokemon and Supporters, neither of which fuel Trashalanche. Post rotation you can still do the same thing, you just have to be a little more wary about discarding Supporters since there won't be a way to get them back, and you can always get your Pokemon back later.

Yeah, it will always be a threat and that was the point of why they made it but it seems they are using it as a way to make questionable cards rather than just making well designed cards.

Like what? Burning Shadows is the first set after Guardians Rising, so what questionable cards do you feel are being made as a result of Garbodor's existence? What kind of cards do you consider well designed? If none or few exist, what cards would you create that you would consider well designed?

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Going back and forth with you is my new favorite pastime.

It's something to do.

Bad decks, basically, but not so bad that people look at it and go "yeah that's bad." Decks that are so bad it's good. B]

What is a example of a bad deck? I'm talking about meta decks and others that get people results or are you just talking about decks that aren't tier one?

Except this is not now nor has it ever been the goal. At no time in this game's history, with the only exception possibly being before the emergency rotation, have players been forced to play any deck just to beat a given deck. People might complain about whatever the BDIF is but the weakness mechanic means there will always be a deck that beats it. And there will always be a deck that beats that, and so on. Complaining about the BDIF is useless because there will always be one. If you don't want to play it or a deck that beats it, at least make sure you don't get throttled by it.

This has recently happen with both Garb and Decidueye/Vileplume. It happened with Turbo Dark or just dark decks in general.

You don't have to. I know it sits in the back of your mind every time you post about the state of the meta and how shitty it is.

Not really. I'm a little annoyed that I can't use Vaporeon-EX, the Pokemon I want to play.

If Pidgeot has positive matchups against the meta, why hasn't anyone else figured it out yet? Do you think the competitive community as a whole is dumb or something?

Pidgeot isn't Turbo Dark. I think this competitive community isn't skilled enough to play it. There is a lot of things that you have to do that I don't think modern Pokemon players are capable of.

Do you have any results to back that up?

Well, I can 6-0 a all the tier one decks.

We do it literally with every set that comes out and after every major tournament. If players didn't evolve, Garbodor would still be curb stomping the meta and we'd all be scratching our heads asking why. That's just one example.

Well, Garb did curb stomp Internationals and expect it to do so at Worlds too.

This is probably not going to happen. I feel like deckbuilding skill becomes much less important when you can simply swap out dead cards you don't need. The goal is to be able to have an answer for most threats, not all of them.

It's clear you don't understand the benefits of a side deck. For some reasons, Pokemon players consider putting tech in your deck skillful and then complain when they lose because they started with their tech and lost because of it. You can (and just hear me out here), build your deck better without killing your consistency. "Oh my God, did you just hear him"

So which is it? Do they care or not?

Games with ban list show the developers are in touch with their players and use them to learn what not to do. The Black and White block proves they learned nothing from the years of Pokemon before it.

[citation needed]

Well, Pokemon up to this point didn't have a best of three or a ban list.

I don't understand. Using a ban list makes them a joke but also shows they care?

Ask any Yu-Gi-Oh or MtG player what they think of the Pokemon TCG and its mechanics.

Yes it does; it means it wasn't ban worthy.

That is because they didn't want to use a ban list. Now they are and it's the first on it.

No, Shiftry was the first card banned, remember? Technically, that was the start of the ban list; they just haven't been public about keeping an Expanded ban list until very recently.

It was banned, yes but it wasn't a list.

Yes it does. It matters a lot. Take Aggron DRX as an example. It has an Ability that lets you discard the top 3 cards of your opponent's deck when you evolve it. That isn't broken by itself, but if sometime down the line PCL made a Forest of Giant Robots that let you evolve Metal Pokemon instantly, Aggron would probably get banned. Does that mean that Aggron was broken the whole time? Of course not. All that matters is that it's broken now. Archeops was good then, but it's unhealthy now because the meta has shifted to favor evolution, and nothing has changed in Expanded to make Maxie any harder to use.

True, they should handle bans as they come up. Broken cards are like a colony of roaches. If you disturb them, you get an outbreak.

Don't count on it. It's good, but it's nowhere near good enough to warrant a ban. It's slow, still folds to Weakness, struggles against Garbodor (you can't count on having Field Blower 100% of the time you get locked), and suffers from consistency issues. Lurantis beats the shit out of it and that alone is enough to keep it unbanned.

I'll let you think that.

I don't know if you meant to say this but yes of course it matters why they ban a card.

Well, I say that because at the end of the day, TPC/i is going to do what they want. Hell, they could ban Pidgeot-EX just to spite me. There you go, I mentioned Pidgeot.

Right - and it still wasn't considered unhealthy until just now. Do you think that PCL simply makes cards with no idea how they're going to function in Expanded? PCL was fully aware of Archeops's existence and must have thought it was acceptable because otherwise Maxie would not do what it does, or they would limit it to only Stage 2 Pokemon, or something.

Its always been unhealthy. Battle Compressor is also unhealthy but is still around. Maxie would have been as is because it's a reprint of Maxie for the first ex format, as was Archie. The entire set is pretty much a reprint set. Archeops wasn't ever intended to be put into play that way. It's why the fossil Pokemon are really good.

Garbodor doesn't exist to beat a specific Pokemon, it exists to stop people from flying through their decks on the first turn. And it worked! People changed how they built decks and now Garbodor is fine. It's just another threat you have to prepare for, simple as that.

Agreed.

So adapt instead of complaining all the time.

I'm actually good right now. I figured out Garb when people were still trying to play without Trainers' Mail.

If that's the way you feel, I'm curious as to what you think item cards of good quality are. Because even if all those cards existed, that wouldn't solve the problem of massive item usage because people would just play your good quality items. Garbodor fixed the problem. You can now play all the items you want, but you'd better be prepared to eat a 240-damage Trashalanche if you do.

I actually think the problem is just Big Basics, which allow more space for items but I think no more Item based draw and energy acceleration is a good start.

No one item is worth banning. Or are you talking about banning Shaymin-EX, which allowed players to draw umpteen cards a turn anyway?

I think Hypnotoxic Laser and Battle Compressor should go away but I don't play Expanded anyways, so I guess it doesn't matter but in Standard, Choice Band but a money version was printed so I don't expect that to happen.

Gardevoir-GX was not designed to beat Garbodor. Twilight GX has a thousand more uses than simply recycling your items. Sure, it basically invalidates Trashalanche for the rest of the game, but that just means that Garbodor players will need to adapt and find ways to get around Twilight GX. Like using alternate attackers, which is what they already do.

That GX attack seems oddly specific and not something you'd expect from Gardevoir.

Or it just makes Trevenant viable

Yeah, it does that too.

Because some people will say "adapt" no matter what the circumstance is. Archeops is stifling evolution decks? Don't play evolution decks. If you do, then recognize Archeops is a threat and play ways to beat it. It's been legal for years so there's no reason to start banning it now. etc etc

And that's the issue right there. If a solution to a problem in a game is "then don't play it", then you have a problem. People should be able to play any deck they want. Evolution aren't bad and a card that stops them from being played should be looked at. It's like saying Articuno is bad because of Stealth Rock. The problem isn't with Articuno, it's with Stealth Rock.

Did you read everything I said, or did you just stop and immediately shoot off after you read the first sentence? Garbodor doesn't care about getting hit with Trashalanche, but everything else in the deck does. You can run all one-Prize attackers and still get crushed by Trashalanche by being careless with your items, but chances are you dropped a Lele to help you set up and that's easy pickings for Garbodor.

I get that and I accepted that but Garb is a one Prize attacker and a lot of them exist. Mirror Matches are always delicate but against everything else, you have the advantage.

Depends on how bad your start is, but this is true for any deck, not just Garbodor. Don't forget, they might brick too; I have escaped many bad starts by having my opponent N me out of a shitty hand (only to get an even worse hand in return).

True.

You can pay Ultra Ball's cost by discarding Pokemon and Supporters, neither of which fuel Trashalanche. Post rotation you can still do the same thing, you just have to be a little more wary about discarding Supporters since there won't be a way to get them back, and you can always get your Pokemon back later.

You don't always have this option.

Like what? Burning Shadows is the first set after Guardians Rising, so what questionable cards do you feel are being made as a result of Garbodor's existence? What kind of cards do you consider well designed? If none or few exist, what cards would you create that you would consider well designed?

That remains to be seen.

 

[PMJ]

What is a example of a bad deck? I'm talking about meta decks and others that get people results or are you just talking about decks that aren't tier one?

Pidgeot, Kommo-o, Dragon Ray, and any deck that wouldn't survive past a League Cup.

Not really. I'm a little annoyed that I can't use Vaporeon-EX, the Pokemon I want to play.

So play it. No one is stopping you. You can play with anything you want. Winning with it is another thing entirely. You can't reasonably expect every card to be viable in Standard (or Expanded)

Pidgeot isn't Turbo Dark. I think this competitive community isn't skilled enough to play it. There is a lot of things that you have to do that I don't think modern Pokemon players are capable of.

Like what? Are you saying you do those things?

Well, I can 6-0 a all the tier one decks.

You know as well as I do that that doesn't mean anything. I'm asking for tournament results. You know, some metric that you can use objectively to show that you are good at this game. Any deck can 6-0 a tier one deck if the pilot of the tier one deck is bad. Though I find your claim that you can take out all the top decks without giving up a single prize suspect at best.

Well, Garb did curb stomp Internationals and expect it to do so at Worlds too.

Garbodor variants accounted for 21 of the top 64 decks. It sounds like a lot, but when you put it in perspective, that's still 43 decks that weren't Garbodor that got top 64 in a field of over 1300 Masters. Two Garbodor decks made top 8; one lost in top 4, the other won the event. A good showing, but I wouldn't call it a curb stomp.

It's clear you don't understand the benefits of a side deck. For some reasons, Pokemon players consider putting tech in your deck skillful and then complain when they lose because they started with their tech and lost because of it. You can (and just hear me out here), build your deck better without killing your consistency. "Oh my God, did you just hear him"

As someone who has not played any card games other than Pokemon, I'll admit I am not familiar with playing with a side deck. I did, however, look up information on what it was, because I wanted to avoid simply talking out of my ass:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Side_Deck

From what I gathered from that page, you could swap cards from your main deck to your side deck between matches in a best of three series. Are you saying that having an extra 0-15 cards would not make deckbuilding loads easier? Fifteen cards is enough to change the entire function of your deck.

Games with ban list show the developers are in touch with their players and use them to learn what not to do. The Black and White block proves they learned nothing from the years of Pokemon before it.

How so? Maybe the reason there was no ban list is because up until AOR and the Shiftry fiasco, there was no need for one.

Well, Pokemon up to this point didn't have a best of three or a ban list.

Pokemon has had a ban list for Expanded since Lysandre's Trump Card (okay, that was the first one, not Shiftry). When PHF rotated, nothing was banned in Standard anymore. As for best of three, I don't know how true that is since I have not played in very many tournaments.

Ask any Yu-Gi-Oh or MtG player what they think of the Pokemon TCG and its mechanics.

You didn't answer my question. I don't care what YGO or MtG players think. If you are one of them, then answer me directly.

That is because they didn't want to use a ban list.

[citation needed]

Now they are and it's the first on it.

Lysandre's Trump Card and Shiftry both preceded it.

It was banned, yes but it wasn't a list.

A list can have one item on it. I'll give you an example. Here is a list of people who have no idea what they're talking about: you

True, they should handle bans as they come up. Broken cards are like a colony of roaches. If you disturb them, you get an outbreak.

...no? I don't understand your analogy. Are you suggesting that more broken cards are going to show up thanks to Archeops and Forest getting banned? If so, what? If not, what the hell are you talking about?

I'll let you think that.

See, this is the kind of holier-than-thou shit that really pisses me off about you. If you're going to make a claim that Greninja BREAK is worthy of a ban, support it; don't just snicker quietly and say "heh heh he thinks Greninja isn't broken, but I know better!" You spout all this shit about players improving and growing the game but now, when you finally have an attempt to clue what you see as a clueless player in and help them learn, you say dumb shit like this.

Well, I say that because at the end of the day, TPC/i is going to do what they want. Hell, they could ban Pidgeot-EX just to spite me. There you go, I mentioned Pidgeot.

So that wasn't a typo, you really think that TPCI bans cards all willy-nilly and for whatever reason? At least they gave reasons for their bans, unlike you. And bet your ass if Pidgeot-EX was broken, they'd ban it, but it's not broken, it's just irrelevant.

Its always been unhealthy. Battle Compressor is also unhealthy but is still around. Maxie would have been as is because it's a reprint of Maxie for the first ex format, as was Archie. The entire set is pretty much a reprint set. Archeops wasn't ever intended to be put into play that way. It's why the fossil Pokemon are really good.

Fossil Pokemon have never been good. Mysterious Fossil was the best fossil mechanic. No muss, no fuss. Now it's all convoluted and they're extra-strength doody because of it.

If Archeops was that unhealthy, they would have banned it ages ago, but they didn't. Battle Compressor was only considered for ban as a means to stop Archeops - that's an important distinction. At no time was it considered for ban under its own merits. Ancient Power was the problem, and while banning Battle Compressor would have fixed it, it would have harmed more decks than just Archeops. The fact that they banned Archeops instead proves they care about banning as few cards as possible.

I'm actually good right now. I figured out Garb when people were still trying to play without Trainers' Mail.

More holier-than-thou bullshit. If you're so damn good, get off your high horse and help. All you do is whine.

I actually think the problem is just Big Basics, which allow more space for items but I think no more Item based draw and energy acceleration is a good start.

I agree that it would be nice to see more Pokemon-based support. Ribombee BUS is a step in the right direction.

I think Hypnotoxic Laser and Battle Compressor should go away but I don't play Expanded anyways, so I guess it doesn't matter but in Standard, Choice Band but a money version was printed so I don't expect that to happen.

There is nothing wrong with doing 30 more damage to a two-prize attacker. That damage can mean the difference between a 1HKO and a 2HKO.

That GX attack seems oddly specific and not something you'd expect from Gardevoir.

Does instant death remind you of Lunala? What about massive energy acceleration from Solgaleo? What about Gumshoos-GX? Ten plus fifty for every Energy on them sure screams Gumshoos. There are a few with GX moves that "make sense" from a design aspect, like Incineroar doing massive damage to one target and burning, or Espeon using psychic power to spread 100 damage around, but the fact is that some of them are just random. Yes, it helps against Garbodor, but it has so much more utility than that that saying it exists solely as a Garbodor counter is doing it an injustice.

And that's the issue right there. If a solution to a problem in a game is "then don't play it", then you have a problem. People should be able to play any deck they want. Evolution aren't bad and a card that stops them from being played should be looked at. It's like saying Articuno is bad because of Stealth Rock. The problem isn't with Articuno, it's with Stealth Rock.

You seem to not be understanding that you can already play whatever deck you want. Whether or not you will win in a format where anything legal goes is another story. You are more than welcome to use Articuno on your team if you like, but if you're going to devote one of your six spots to it, then the rest of your team should be able to combat its weaknesses, including that of Stealth Rock. Articuno has great defensive stats but a hilariously bad defensive typing (on top of the double weakness to rocks) and a shallow movepool. Using it in OU is not even worth it. At least Pokemon like Charizard can offset the rocks weakness by having two dope Mega Evolutions. Yanmega has Speed Boost and super flinch powers. Articuno has nothing. It's a joke in OU, and as an Articuno fan it pains me to say it, but it's the cold hard truth.

I get that and I accepted that but Garb is a one Prize attacker and a lot of them exist. Mirror Matches are always delicate but against everything else, you have the advantage.

I'll concede this point.

You don't always have this option.

So? More often than not, you will not have to discard two items with Ultra Ball. If you do, that's just bad luck. If you note it keeps happening, maybe you're discarding the wrong things, or you need to run more Supporters. This will definitely be the case once VS Seeker rotates.

That remains to be seen.

I'll rephrase. What cards do you think exist now that Garbodor was created as a band-aid to fix?

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Pidgeot, Kommo-o, Dragon Ray, and any deck that wouldn't survive past a League Cup.

I don't expect Dragon Ray to win a League Cup.

So play it. No one is stopping you. You can play with anything you want. Winning with it is another thing entirely. You can't reasonably expect every card to be viable in Standard (or Expanded)

Vaporeon-EX isn't good. I'm not going to play that in a tournament.

You know as well as I do that that doesn't mean anything. I'm asking for tournament results. You know, some metric that you can use objectively to show that you are good at this game. Any deck can 6-0 a tier one deck if the pilot of the tier one deck is bad. Though I find your claim that you can take out all the top decks without giving up a single prize suspect at best.

I figured if I can 6-0 a meta deck, then I must be doing something right. I don't need to 6-0 them each time but once is good enough.

Garbodor variants accounted for 21 of the top 64 decks. It sounds like a lot, but when you put it in perspective, that's still 43 decks that weren't Garbodor that got top 64 in a field of over 1300 Masters. Two Garbodor decks made top 8; one lost in top 4, the other won the event. A good showing, but I wouldn't call it a curb stomp.

I would, but it's just word games at this point.

As someone who has not played any card games other than Pokemon, I'll admit I am not familiar with playing with a side deck. I did, however, look up information on what it was, because I wanted to avoid simply talking out of my ass:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Side_Deck

From what I gathered from that page, you could swap cards from your main deck to your side deck between matches in a best of three series. Are you saying that having an extra 0-15 cards would not make deckbuilding loads easier? Fifteen cards is enough to change the entire function of your deck.

That is kind of the idea, to make a matchup favorable if you have the right cards. I would think ten cards is enough for Pokemon.

How so? Maybe the reason there was no ban list is because up until AOR and the Shiftry fiasco, there was no need for one.

I don't know the reason for it. No one does.

Pokemon has had a ban list for Expanded since Lysandre's Trump Card (okay, that was the first one, not Shiftry). When PHF rotated, nothing was banned in Standard anymore. As for best of three, I don't know how true that is since I have not played in very many tournaments.

It wasn't officially a ban list. There wasn't a format for it. Now we have something that can be updated every three months.

You didn't answer my question. I don't care what YGO or MtG players think. If you are one of them, then answer me directly.

I talk with Yu-Gi-Oh and MtG players about Pokemon and that is some of the things they say. At the end of the day, I don't really care what they say but both groups cant be wrong. Well, I guess they can but you get the point.

A list can have one item on it. I'll give you an example. Here is a list of people who have no idea what they're talking about: you

Classy.

...no? I don't understand your analogy. Are you suggesting that more broken cards are going to show up thanks to Archeops and Forest getting banned? If so, what? If not, what the hell are you talking about?

I was trying to say a broken card is always broken and yada, yada, yada, something with sleeper cells and haunted burial grounds.

See, this is the kind of holier-than-thou shit that really pisses me off about you. If you're going to make a claim that Greninja BREAK is worthy of a ban, support it; don't just snicker quietly and say "heh heh he thinks Greninja isn't broken, but I know better!" You spout all this shit about players improving and growing the game but now, when you finally have an attempt to clue what you see as a clueless player in and help them learn, you say dumb shit like this.

Greninja BREAK has always been broken and that is because of how self contained it is. It was designed to fight big basics and in a format where 60 HP Pokemon are trying to evolve, 60 to 120 spread due to an Ability (180 with Guzma), you can pick off two or three 60 HP Pokemon. That is broken and anyone should be able to see why this is a problem.

So that wasn't a typo, you really think that TPCI bans cards all willy-nilly and for whatever reason? At least they gave reasons for their bans, unlike you. And bet your ass if Pidgeot-EX was broken, they'd ban it, but it's not broken, it's just irrelevant.

I mean, are you able to tell when something is a joke? Clearly they aren't going to ban Pidgeot-EX.

Fossil Pokemon have never been good. Mysterious Fossil was the best fossil mechanic. No muss, no fuss. Now it's all convoluted and they're extra-strength doody because of it.

Look past the way to get them down but at the card itself.

If Archeops was that unhealthy, they would have banned it ages ago, but they didn't. Battle Compressor was only considered for ban as a means to stop Archeops - that's an important distinction. At no time was it considered for ban under its own merits. Ancient Power was the problem, and while banning Battle Compressor would have fixed it, it would have harmed more decks than just Archeops. The fact that they banned Archeops instead proves they care about banning as few cards as possible.

Cards that say a player can't do something should take care to not break anything. Cards that say a player can't use a game mechanic shouldn't ever be explored or easily exploited. If they are (in a multiplayer game), they should be addressed immediately but these are the people who just gave tool removal and Oricorio to the game.

More holier-than-thou bullshit. If you're so damn good, get off your high horse and help. All you do is whine.

All help is seen a complaining. I help where I can but its up to the other person to accept it.

There is nothing wrong with doing 30 more damage to a two-prize attacker. That damage can mean the difference between a 1HKO and a 2HKO.

I think the main problem is two Prize attackers can use the card.

You seem to not be understanding that you can already play whatever deck you want. Whether or not you will win in a format where anything legal goes is another story. You are more than welcome to use Articuno on your team if you like, but if you're going to devote one of your six spots to it, then the rest of your team should be able to combat its weaknesses, including that of Stealth Rock. Articuno has great defensive stats but a hilariously bad defensive typing (on top of the double weakness to rocks) and a shallow movepool. Using it in OU is not even worth it. At least Pokemon like Charizard can offset the rocks weakness by having two dope Mega Evolutions. Yanmega has Speed Boost and super flinch powers. Articuno has nothing. It's a joke in OU, and as an Articuno fan it pains me to say it, but it's the cold hard truth.

Bad typing or not, a entry hazard shouldn't take 50% of a Pokemon's health.

So? More often than not, you will not have to discard two items with Ultra Ball. If you do, that's just bad luck. If you note it keeps happening, maybe you're discarding the wrong things, or you need to run more Supporters. This will definitely be the case once VS Seeker rotates.

You can't help how you draw.

I'll rephrase. What cards do you think exist now that Garbodor was created as a band-aid to fix?

Garbodor was to address the speed of the game. It wasn't any one group of cards.