Discussion Standard Meta Tier List

Anthony Orosco said:
I really don't think MRay is tier 1 anymore. It can be realistically placed around tier 2 in my opinion. The reason is that too many decks are running Parallel City nowadays, and after that one bench restriction it's very hard to pick up steam. Not to mention Garbodor running around can shut off any hopes of recovering such as Dragonite EX, Hoopa EX, or Shaymin EX. I also find it confusing how you put Despair Ray Gardevoir underneath MRay even though you described her as Rayquaza 2.0 being more consistent and with things like Rattata and Hawlucha putting her over the top.
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I've played a lot of Mega Ray and seen a lot of games with it and Parallel City isn't as disruptive as you think it is. They play four Sky Field and four Puzzle of Time. They cave no issue going from a Bench of three to eight. I haven't seen a lot of Garb around lately but Mega Ray can afford a turn to remove it should it become a problem. A good Mega Ray players will play what they need.

Gardevoir does the same thing as Mega Ray and can recover resources just as well. I consider it a 2.0 deck because it isn't as good as Mega Ray. Maybe I'm using 2.0 wrong here but I consider it the second Mega Ray deck. I also consider Mega Ray as Night March 2.0. Mega Gardevoir can cheese kills with the tech options it has but Mega Ray doesn't need these thing and can KO everything in a single hit whereas Gardevoir can't.
 
totodile_it_down said:
Why is M Rayquaza being considered Tier 1 in Standard?
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The reason M Rayquaza is considered tier 1 in my list is simply because it doesn't have many bad match-ups the only thing to watchout for is a parallel city in a deck with garbodor out most cases a mega rayquaza deck can knock out the garbodor then put up his sky field and use dragonites to reset the game state while still being healthy enough to get one for knock out in which is 220 hp. M rayquaza is a scary deck to face still to this date and it still poses the threat of stealing any regional or top 8 spots Although it has been dropping in favor atm I think it's still a top contender vs the other tier 1 decks.
 
Trixss said:
The reason M Rayquaza is considered tier 1 in my list is simply because it doesn't have many bad match-ups the only thing to watchout for is a parallel city in a deck with garbodor out most cases a mega rayquaza deck can knock out the garbodor then put up his sky field and use dragonites to reset the game state while still being healthy enough to get one for knock out in which is 220 hp. M rayquaza is a scary deck to face still to this date and it still poses the threat of stealing any regional or top 8 spots Although it has been dropping in favor atm I think it's still a top contender vs the other tier 1 decks.
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Interesting. I've not really seen it be much of a threat besides the rare placing here and there. Parallel City+Garb is positively a death sentence, especially when correlated with a well timed TFG/Hex/Delinquent/E Hammer/any disruption.

Seems especially ill-fated with PlumeEyes gaining traction (M Ray no likey the item locky). And with other Tier 1 decks like Vespiquen and Darkrai/Dragons also thrashing it, in addition to lower tiered decks like M Mewtwo/Garb and Rainbow Road (barf) being extremely unfavorable matchups, it seems like you'd have to dodge a large portion of the meta to do well. Even Volcanion is pretty 50/50.

It does generally handle Turbo Dark and M Gardy quite nicely, I will admit that.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
I've played a lot of Mega Ray and seen a lot of games with it and Parallel City isn't as disruptive as you think it is. They play four Sky Field and four Puzzle of Time. They cave no issue going from a Bench of three to eight. I haven't seen a lot of Garb around lately but Mega Ray can afford a turn to remove it should it become a problem. A good Mega Ray players will play what they need.

Gardevoir does the same thing as Mega Ray and can recover resources just as well. I consider it a 2.0 deck because it isn't as good as Mega Ray. Maybe I'm using 2.0 wrong here but I consider it the second Mega Ray deck. I also consider Mega Ray as Night March 2.0. Mega Gardevoir can cheese kills with the tech options it has but Mega Ray doesn't need these thing and can KO everything in a single hit whereas Gardevoir can't.
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Yeah, I was a bit confused by 2.0:p

I think that Mega Ray is good, but I honestly don't think it's tier 1. Before Regionals even started this season, Rayquaza was considered tier 2-3. Saying that a good Rayquaza player will play what they need is a bit vague along with the fact you haven't seen a lot of Garb around, but I do agree with you that doing well with it is possible. I just don't think it's top tier. I think that MRay had a chance to make a comeback after winning Liverpool Regionals, but it ultimately fell short.
 
Anthony Orosco said:
Yeah, I was a bit confused by 2.0:p

I think that Mega Ray is good, but I honestly don't think it's tier 1. Before Regionals even started this season, Rayquaza was considered tier 2-3. Saying that a good Rayquaza player will play what they need is a bit vague along with the fact you haven't seen a lot of Garb around, but I do agree with you that doing well with it is possible. I just don't think it's top tier. I think that MRay had a chance to make a comeback after winning Liverpool Regionals, but it ultimately fell short.
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The reason is Mega Ray doesn't care what matchup is goes against, it will always do well. Mega Ray doesn't have a bad matchup. It just plays a bunch of cards and OHKOs something. Arguably its worst matchup is Vespiquen and that is solely because of Zebstrika. You need to run something like that to beat it because no other deck can keep up with it. You 2HKO it and it OHKO's you.

What I mean by playing it well is not filling up a bench if you don't have to and holding on to cards. If you only need 180 damage for a KP, don't drop more Pokemon for no reason. The reason people say it's tier 1 is because of what it can do and that is KO everything in the meta in one hit. With Garb, I haven't been seeing it. There is the odd Yveltal-EX/Garb list but most players just swapped to Turbo Dark and they don't run it. Sure you might run into it but there isn't enough of them around for Mega Ray to really care. On time of that, you can spend a turn to KO the garb and in most cases, Mega Ray isn't in any real danger since it's not getting knocked out in one hit, leaving you in a really good spot.
 
Mega Ray might see more play because it's explosive like DeciPlume. You win the coin flip, you go off, you establish a board, and you swing for whatever you have going for you. I expect Volcanion to become really popular these next few weeks to counter it too, which would give you even more reason to run Ray. I'm thinking Vespiquen that wins the coin flip and Flareon might be something to look at as well, but that's usually a one-of and I dunno how consistent that will be.
 
Zoom said:
Why Kyurem EX waterbox lapras?
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It's a list I have been testing for awhile but just recently dropped it due to consistency issues I will be updating it later after I get more data from the current list being used by players.

EDIT: The reason I had kyurem-ex was for setting up knockouts on tauros GX and using icecalibur to stop darkrai / m mewtwo / m rayquaza from attacking.
 
The list looks more correct but I still find some issues with it. I really think you should use a .5 tier systems just to break the decks apart that don't belong to either, like Smogon's BL tiers that exist for things not exactly OU or UU.



Tier 1:
M Mewtwo EX
Turbo Darkrai
M Rayquaza EX
Darkrai Dragons
Yveltal EX (Should move down a half tier)
Decidueye Plume

Tier 2:
Vespiquen (should move up a half tier, though the placement is fine)
M Gardevoir Despair Ray
Waterbox/ Lapras GX (Should move up a half tier)
Rainbow Road
Volcanion EX (should move up a half tier)
M Scizor EX / M Scizor EX (Should move down a half tier)
Vileplume Varients / Lurantis (I think all Vileplume decks should be at least tier 1.5)
Tauros Giratina

Tier 3:
Umbreon GX
Greninja Break (Not sure how I feel about this. It's still very strong)
Gyarados
Passimian (Seems about right)
Solgaleo/Lurantis (Should move up a tier)

Tier ?:
Pidgeot EX (can't say I like the list. Has an identity crisis. I believe its tier 2 at best)
Espeon GX (Not sure what this deck aims to do)
Houndoom Mill (Should be tier 2. Disuption and mill is strong.)
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
The list looks more correct but I still find some issues with it. I really think you should use a .5 tier systems just to break the decks apart that don't belong to either, like Smogon's BL tiers that exist for things not exactly OU or UU.



Tier 1:
M Mewtwo EX
Turbo Darkrai
M Rayquaza EX
Darkrai Dragons
Yveltal EX (Should move down a half tier)
Decidueye Plume

Tier 2:
Vespiquen (should move up a half tier, though the placement is fine)
M Gardevoir Despair Ray
Waterbox/ Lapras GX (Should move up a half tier)
Rainbow Road
Volcanion EX (should move up a half tier)
M Scizor EX / M Scizor EX (Should move down a half tier)
Vileplume Varients / Lurantis (I think all Vileplume decks should be at least tier 1.5)
Tauros Giratina

Tier 3:
Umbreon GX
Greninja Break (Not sure how I feel about this. It's still very strong)
Gyarados
Passimian (Seems about right)
Solgaleo/Lurantis (Should move up a tier)

Tier ?:
Pidgeot EX (can't say I like the list. Has an identity crisis. I believe its tier 2 at best)
Espeon GX (Not sure what this deck aims to do)
Houndoom Mill (Should be tier 2. Disuption and mill is strong.)
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Let me answer some questions with the deck first.
Pidgeot: The I couldn't find a proper deck list so I decided to make one up on the spot to give people a general idea, I am going to remove that one and replace it with a better one after I finish practicing 5 other decks on my queue. ( I practice every deck I post and for ones I can't find I try to make a deck list and play it vs the other meta decks.)
Greninja Break: This deck indeed is very strong and I believe it will move up spots after leaf blower is released as it will be able to deal with garbodor which is the biggest problem atm.
Vileplume Varients: The problem with some Vileplume varients is consistency the problem with Lurantis is theres not much too it Do 120 Damage heal 30 Hope you don't get 2 hit.
M Scizor EX: This deck has great potential but the increase of volcanion and the consistency is the only problem with this deck, I just believe nobody has found the correct way to build this yet and that's why we don't see it at all. This deck can very easily beat the Tier 1 decks but as stated above Consistency is an issue therefore I think Tier 2 is a solid place for Scizor.
Espeon GX: It's hard to say where this deck belongs It's in a rough position where it has the potential to be good but the cards we have in the format are better.
Houndoom Mill: Mill and Denial Decks are my favorite I wasn't sure if there was a place for them in this format since I have not played any Mill since Sableye Trickshovel.
Waterbox/Lapras GX: I'm sure this is a tier 1 deck but there hasn't been any placements for it other than Anaheim. Hopefully when aqua patch comes out we will see some of the top spots have Waterbox.
Yveltal EX: This deck is still very strong as it can 2 Hit anything in the current format and most of the time Yveltal will have the lead if the game turns into a 2 Hit Match-up.

Now regarding the .5 System I started this with just a Tier 1 2 3 because we had little decks to cover. If the community wants to see a .5 System then I will do so but I believe it will cause more confusion to the newer players than help them understand a Tier list and what are the best decks in the current format.
 
Trixss said:
Let me answer some questions with the deck first.
Pidgeot: The I couldn't find a proper deck list so I decided to make one up on the spot to give people a general idea, I am going to remove that one and replace it with a better one after I finish practicing 5 other decks on my queue. ( I practice every deck I post and for ones I can't find I try to make a deck list and play it vs the other meta decks.)
Greninja Break: This deck indeed is very strong and I believe it will move up spots after leaf blower is released as it will be able to deal with garbodor which is the biggest problem atm.
Vileplume Varients: The problem with some Vileplume varients is consistency the problem with Lurantis is theres not much too it Do 120 Damage heal 30 Hope you don't get 2 hit.
M Scizor EX: This deck has great potential but the increase of volcanion and the consistency is the only problem with this deck, I just believe nobody has found the correct way to build this yet and that's why we don't see it at all. This deck can very easily beat the Tier 1 decks but as stated above Consistency is an issue therefore I think Tier 2 is a solid place for Scizor.
Espeon GX: It's hard to say where this deck belongs It's in a rough position where it has the potential to be good but the cards we have in the format are better.
Houndoom Mill: Mill and Denial Decks are my favorite I wasn't sure if there was a place for them in this format since I have not played any Mill since Sableye Trickshovel.
Waterbox/Lapras GX: I'm sure this is a tier 1 deck but there hasn't been any placements for it other than Anaheim. Hopefully when aqua patch comes out we will see some of the top spots have Waterbox.
Yveltal EX: This deck is still very strong as it can 2 Hit anything in the current format and most of the time Yveltal will have the lead if the game turns into a 2 Hit Match-up.

Now regarding the .5 System I started this with just a Tier 1 2 3 because we had little decks to cover. If the community wants to see a .5 System then I will do so but I believe it will cause more confusion to the newer players than help them understand a Tier list and what are the best decks in the current format.
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I guess I can agree with that. I have a pretty solid list for Pidgeot you can try out but it requires a bit of skill to run correctly. The reason I would like to see a .5 system is some decks are just better than the others in the same tier but aren't exactly tier 1.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
I guess I can agree with that. I have a pretty solid list for Pidgeot you can try out but it requires a bit of skill to run correctly. The reason I would like to see a .5 system is some decks are just better than the others in the same tier but aren't exactly tier 1.
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I'd love to see the Pidgeot list if you don't mind, I also agree that some decks are better than others and I try to put them in order from Best to Good in each tier.
 
If M Mewtwo is rotated then Espeon-GX is going to get some more results. M Gardevoir is having quite a bit of trouble with Solgaleo+Lurantis and item lock, so I think Tier 2 is fair at the moment.
 
I think it's fair to say that we can't make a rotation meta call just yet until we know how "The best of X&Y" is going to impact the game. If it's a set of reprints, and Hoopa EX ISN'T in it. Then mega decks are done. But if he is in it, then Mewtwo and Ray are still going to be around.
 
Licki200 said:
Is turbo dark still viable? How does it match up against Volcanion and Mega Ray?
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Turbo Dark is probably the most consistent and safe deck to choose in this meta since it has no insta loss decks and scales well throughout the game. Turbo Dark vs Volcanion is a even match it really depends on which deck gets the better setup but in most cases I'd say Turbo wins in a BO1 Series but in a BO3 I'm preety sure volcanion wins the match-up. And as for M Rayquaza It is really hard to beat this deck as Turbo dark even if you get the perfect setup, hitting for 220 Damage on turn 1 or 2 is rough for turbo dark to do. Rayquaza definitely takes the BO1 and BO3 Series in this case.
 
Trixss said:
Turbo Dark is probably the most consistent and safe deck to choose in this meta since it has no insta loss decks and scales well throughout the game.
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It has a very hard time against plume if it doesnt hit the hex maniac turn 1 and they open with plume. Most Turbo Darks have ~28 items they cant use at that point, including Ultra Ball and Elixer. That as close to insta-loss as turbo dark gets.

Trixss said:
Turbo Dark vs Volcanion is a even match it really depends on which deck gets the better setup but in most cases I'd say Turbo wins in a BO1 Series but in a BO3 I'm preety sure volcanion wins the match-up.
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They're pretty even match-up actually. Both decks do BASICALLLY the same thing. This match-up is very dependent on the draws. Whoever has better RNG wins.

Trixss said:
And as for M Rayquaza It is really hard to beat this deck as Turbo dark even if you get the perfect setup, hitting for 220 Damage on turn 1 or 2 is rough for turbo dark to do. Rayquaza definitely takes the BO1 and BO3 Series in this case.
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Yes and no. Turbo dark does one thing very easy, get big numbers on board really quick. This match-up is swayed by how long the Shaymins for M-Ray are on board, and how many Max Elixer's/Exp. Share's Turbo Dark gets. 4 Energy and a Reverse Valley/FFB is an OHKO on Shaymin
 
Here is what I have to say about Turbo Dark. Turbo Dark isn't a combo deck. It doesn't need to see a combination of cards to work. You just want to hit your Max Elixir and that's it. The deck does get weaker when Field Blower is released though but for the most part, you get 10 energy in play and you win. Volcanion is a combo deck since you need to have at least two or more cards to work. You need to have your Volcanion, all the EX versions, ways to get energy back and something else every turn to work. Turbo Dark doesn't need these things and will always have the advantage because it doesn't need to have more cards than it needs.

Now Mega Ray is a combo deck too but it has the ability to just kill what it wants.
 
Sorry to change the subject, but what do you guys think about Waterbox going into SM2? I am seriously considering building it as a third deck and one that will hopefully survive rotation.
 
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